old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: fazer390 on 25 November 2013, 08:10:25 pm
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I went to start my Fazer (2002 gen 1 thou) this afternoon and it wouldn't start? which is unlike my Fazer... The last time I used it was Hogging the Bridge in October where it ran faultless. I also put a brand new battery on it that month.
The starter turns over nice and strong, but the engine doesn't catch. Initially I tried choke on / choke off, throttle on / throttle off.
After a lot of head scratching; I thought sod it and called the RAC. Unfortunately he also couldn't diagnose the problem fully either; however he did narrow it down and reckons it's the electrical system not fuel as first suspected. He checked for a spark and there wasn't one! He wiggled a few wires, checked the fuses, looked under the tank, fiddled with the fuel tap etc... etc...
Attempted to start it again and it starts... I thought great, it must have been a dodgy connection or something. After a few minutes I cut the engine. RAC man left, I donned my jacket and lid, turned the key. The starter spins nice and strong and nothing!!! the engine fails to start :grumble . Eventually it does but now only on 2 cylinders. It then coughs and splutters and dies. I start it again; it struggles, then 2 cylinders again! It's difficult to explain without showing and hearing?
The RAC guy did say it could be the pickup sensor or maybe the META alarm or something...
Any ideas guys? I'm pulling my hair out... :'(
Oh... another thing it does now too is the Fuel Pump runs a lot longer prior to starting, then when it has started the pump continues to run (sounds like a long frequency of clicking). I'm sure it never did this before.
Answers on a postcard Please...
:wall
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Sticking float causing it to flood? Would explain the fuel pump bit.
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Sticking float should also result in overflowing fuel but you might be on the right track. Could be the float needle valve seat O-rings letting fuel past, which would over-fuel the affected cylinder without actually overflowing.
I would also check the ignition switch (clean with WD40), the electrical connectors (particularly the large white one left side under the tank) and the various cut-out switches. Seems odd that the RAC man couldn't find a spark but then got the motor to run.
I'm thinking it might be a case of a fuel issue causing the plugs to wet up, presenting as no spark.
Have you isolated which two cylinders aren't running? Squirt water onto the header pipes to find the cold ones.
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I've had kind of the same issue over the last year and if it's an 02, the problem could be that the wiring everywhere will be getting old and corroded.
Just recently, my 01 had been running rough, coughing a bit at low revs and generally feeling woolly, and also being a bitch to start after cleaning it. I thought the carbs needed balancing again. Finally I had one cylinder not firing at all after a good scrub and wash, and as I was fiddling about trying to find the cause, I had a plug lead pull out of the plug cap. No resistance, just pulled straight out.
Now, remembering Falcon's advice (thanks!) about the ends of the plug leads getting hard with age, I snipped off half a centimetre of plug lead and hey presto, 4 cylinders. I thought I might as well check the others and they were all very loose and the plugs caps wouldn't tighten up when I screwed them in, so I snipped each plug lead, screwed them all back in tight and guess what - one smooth running, pokey Fazer again.
I wouldn't have believed it if someone had told me it would make that much difference. No more woolliness, not more coughing. It was almost like Ivanising it again. The weird thing is, it had been running kind of ok otherwise. Once it caught on all four, it was generally fine.
My bet's electrics. Check back from the plugs themselves - are the plugs all in tight (I had one pop clean out of the cylinder once!), then plug leads - as you screw them on can you feel them get tight, then take a look at how the connections are looking on the ignition coils, and if are they looking corroded give them a scrape, and keep going all the way back to the white connector underneath the tank. Mine fell apart earlier this year, so that's an important one to check, although that would cut all the electrics and send your alarm into a fit (I had to reset my Datatool after that. Oh, that was fun. Not!)
Still, it's all pretty easily fixable with methodical approach and a bit of patience. I'd be surprised if it's the carbs and a month's layup isn't anywhere near long enough for the fuel to go off.
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Good call, AyJay. :)
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When checking the wiring make sure you point ya head at neutral light switch and sidestand switch, exposed electrics that stop the motor running....
Wouldn't let it run on two but could be a misfire thing.
One thing with wasted spark coil setups is one spark is usually weaker than the other depending on which end gets the pos/neg spark (don't know why), I work on aircraft magnetos and notice when you crank them by hand with no leads attached every other one will send a spark across the dizzy block with the ones in between lifeless, re-time with the rotor 180 degs away and the opposite connections do it.
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I had a similiar issues and I discovered that the pick up plug under the tank had some corrosion in it and a quick spray of WD40 fixed it. Had me baffled for a while as everthing was testing fine.
I then took all the connectors apart and treated them to the same dose of WD40 as a safeguard
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Cheers guys. All fixed... It was corroded electrical connections. The big white Lecky connection under tank and yep, the pickup connecter block. I also cleaned all the other blocks too.
Running sweat again... ;-)
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Invest in a can of ACF 50 & treat all your electrics to a dose -its magic stuff! :lol prevents :eek & :'(
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Worth taking a look at this link regarding the large white reg/rec connector as this is a fairly common problem on older Gen 1s now:
http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/eskortsdefectiveconnectorreplacement.shtml (http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/eskortsdefectiveconnectorreplacement.shtml)
Glad you got yours running sweet again.
Mike
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Good idea Dave... In fact I did treat my electrics to some GT85 as a further preventative measure.
Cheers for the link Mike, interesting read. I will look into replacing that white lecky block as soon as now...
;) ;)
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Hi Guys. Merry Christmas... ;)
I've replaced the white lecky block, cleaned up all the other lecky connections and treated them to some gt85. I went for a 40 mile blast yesterday as it was dry, it's not as bad as it was but still cuts out as before. It's like switching the kill switch off & on! More so at high revs initially; however once warmed up 20 miles in the symptoms seemed to diminish? I think it may be a short somewhere, but any other pointers will be much appreciated. I've got a bit of time off over Xmas and desparate to get it fixed!!!
Cheers in advance chaps... :\
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Connections to and including: side stand switch, engine kill switch, ignition switch, cut out relay under nearside side panel, main ecu. Problem will be there somewhere.
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You may need to carry a spare spark plug, if it stops then you can pull one plug cap off and hang the spare plug against the casing to see if you have a spark when pressing start, saves you turning it over and over wanting it to start.Then you can see if moving wires etc will bring a spark.
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When you have eliminated all other possible causes,-electrical,fuel etc then maybe worth checking your Meta alarm-how old is it? My immobiliser on the previous bike-Gen 1 thou-was 11 years old and bike showed similar symptoms to yours. Once removed all was well again-intermittent faults are the worst of all as they leave a nagging doubt which spoils your ride. Good luck!
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I had another fiddle with my bike today along with an oil and filter change. It starts fine no probs. I wiggled every Lecky block and sensor wire etc... and also cleaned up the kick stand switch, all with no effect to running engine; however I noticed the clock and tacho have reset? and this has happened a few times recently. I've not diconnected the battery since I last went out on it, so I'm further puzzled with this. Surely this wouldn't have anything to do with the symptoms. My gen 1 is a 2002 and the Meta Alarm I believe was fitted when new. I'm thinking now it may be the alarm that's causing my intermittent fault. I'm wondering if a Meta dealer be able to check the alarm or would it be better to just get it removed?
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Check the backup fuse as it supplies the power to the clock when the ignition is switch off on a Red/Green wire.
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I would remove alarm Jase, at that age its not worth the aggro, and if problem still continues its one possible cause ticked off at least.
My fazer is now 10 yrs old, and this has made me think its time to give its electrics a check over. On the plus side for me the bike is parked in a dry integral garage so doesn't sit in damp ,possibly corrosive conditions.
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I had another fiddle with my bike today along with an oil and filter change. It starts fine no probs. I wiggled every Lecky block and sensor wire etc... and also cleaned up the kick stand switch, all with no effect to running engine; however I noticed the clock and tacho have reset? and this has happened a few times recently. I've not diconnected the battery since I last went out on it, so I'm further puzzled with this. Surely this wouldn't have anything to do with the symptoms. My gen 1 is a 2002 and the Meta Alarm I believe was fitted when new. I'm thinking now it may be the alarm that's causing my intermittent fault. I'm wondering if a Meta dealer be able to check the alarm or would it be better to just get it removed?
If your clocks are resetting, it means that there's an issue with your main power wires somewhere from the battery, as the only way you can reset the clocks is by taking them off. I can't remember the wiring schematics for the FZS off the top of my head but it'll have the battery with two wires going off of it, one will be grounded, one will go to the starter relay and on to the starter motor. If there's nothing else in that circuit (the main wires coming off the battery) then it's got to be an issue there - so check the connections on the battery and where the main wires go to, make sure the wires themselves aren't obviously cut/crushed, and then probably check your starter relay for serious corrosion (as that'll be basically cutting all the power to the bike if there's a dodgy connection)
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Having just read that you have an alarm wired in:
Does it have an immobiliser? If so they're usually wired in one of two ways - either there will be a wire spliced in that will interrup the starter button circuit (so you can turn the bike on, but not start it), or it will possibly (albeit more unusually) be wired in to the main power circuit (so the bike won't turn on at all). If its wired into the main power circuit then that could explain why the clocks are resetting if the alarms on the way out as it's essentially on and off killing the power to the bike!
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Hi JoeRock,
Thank you for your input, a very interesting read. I'll have a good look at the electrices this weekend.
Last weekend I did change the spark plugs (old ones did look quite ropey!) and Fuel Filter (which had never been changed!) and also squirted some carb cleaner through the carbs (via the airbox). I went for a blast and initially it did cut out again at high speed on a quiet local straight road. But then after a second run it was absalutely fine. I'm wondering if it was a bit of crap in the carbs? If it's dry'ish over the weekend I'll go out on it again after carrying out your suggestions and let you know my results...
;)
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Cutting out at speed is usually electrical.
It still looks like corrosion on the electrics some where.
Joe is correct with regards the alarm and it is a good idea to disconnect it first to rule it out. I have had to rewire many alarms because they were wired incorrectly even by so called professionals. :wall
The alarms are to be wired to cut the ignition circuit, the starter circuit and wired to a switched live which tells the alarm not to activate with the ignition on which is called the sense wire.
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Sorry to hijack, but ...after my Thou had been sitting for a while it coughed and spluttered into life but it ran OK. Only thing was if i cracked the throttle open it would stutter. Steady opening and it was fine. This was in the garage not under load.
Don't remember it doing that before. Any worries ?
Thanks.
DBo.
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Drain the carbs first and see if that cures it
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If it doesn't, check the airbox and air filter next.
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Drain the carbs first and see if that cures it
I have heard this suggested a few times, what is the easiest way to do this? I have never worked on carbs before.
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Look here I posted a picture to help some time ago http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,6574.msg61788.html#msg61788 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,6574.msg61788.html#msg61788).
Take care not to over tighten the drain screws when finished
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I visited my inlaws over the weekend and my father inlaw gave me some fuel system and carb cleaner stuff.
I put it my tank with some fresh fuel and went out for a run...
Initially I wasn't fully convinced as I was starting to accept it was probably the alarm as suggested; HOWEVER...
I gave her a good test around the Wiltshire countryside and... no cutting out, struggling or stuttering under load. She now pulls strong and confident... Woo hoo...
I'll take her out again this Thursday for another test to make sure. I'm day off that day as I'll be attending Drillers funeral...
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I drain the carbs, fuel filter and tank on a yearly basis as the bike is used all year in all weathers, but also drain the carbs if bike is slower than normal to start. Let the tank run as low as possible first, makes the job much easier and less wastefull.
Any bike I get to work on with starting issues I always drain the carbs first thing in the morning and many times it resolves starting issues. Then drain the fules and filters if the carb draining works.
The water congreates in bottom of the float bowl overnight and is the first to be picked up the the pilots jets when you go to start in the morning and since water does not ignite :'( it slows the starting process and or runs rough after starting.
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Hi guys, I'm back again!
I went to the london bike show Sunday on the Fazer and I've still got the original symptoms! :wall
- Initially it struggled to start in the morning; turning over but not catching for about 30 sec.
- I rode to the garage to fill up and the same thing happened.
- Then 2hrs of mainly motorway riding without a hitch.
- Spent several hours at show, then got back to bike, as before bike struggled before engine catched.
- 10min into ride home and after some short fast blasts off roundabouts etc... engine cuts out.
- I pull over and attempt to start. A big back fire, then several cranks it starts again.
- All fine for next hour on M4, then I overtake a bus, lane 3, high speed; engine cuts out!!!
- I coast towards hard sholder where I attempt to start while still rolling and it does...
- 20min later I'm home.
Prior to this run I took on all your advice; drained carbs, checked airbox & filter, new fuel filter, oil & filter, new plugs, trimmed HT leads, checked elect connections under the tank & seat, checked kill switch, cleaned sidestand switch and a new battery was replaced the other month etc...
When the engine starts and cuts out, it's like switching a light bulb on or off. No warnings at all?
The Fazer has always been kept in my garage for the last eight years of ownership; however I do wash it after every ride and it's done 50k miles now. I'm thinking it can only be the Datatool system 3, ECU or rectifier, so another weekend of fettling and head scratching for me... :\
If I can't fix it I'll have to admit defeat and book it into a dealer! :'( £££??? Any dealer recommendations or are there any of you experts out there I can bring it to?
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Others may disagree but in my opinion if it just cuts out and back fires when trying to start it's spark not fuel related. The back fire is the fuel igniting so fuel must be there, also fuel related I would expect the bike to lose power and baulk with throttle but possibly tick over (badly perhaps) you in theory have four fuel systems except for the pump I supose, but what are the chances of all four failing simultaneously? Anyway I'd be looking at ignition not fuel, good luck.
Andy
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I agree with Andy. Sudden cut out means its not fuel or air as both would give warnings. I don't think its spark (not directly anyway) because you would expect one cylinder to be affected if it was a plug or lead, and two if it was a coil. That leaves electrical. The symptoms are similar to what I would expect from the kill switch, so try using the kill switch deliberatly to compare the effects (obviously on a safe bit of road with no one behind you!). If you use the kill switch on a regular basis, it could be worn out, causing these problems. Strip it down and look for wear, should be easy enough to repair/replace. If you don't use it often, it could be just dirty contacts.
Finally, it could be your alarm. This is easy to bypass but expensive to replace.
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I agree with Paul and Andy, it is most likely electrical, however the fact it turns over rules out the kill switch, side stand switch and clutch switch. Any fault with these would prevent the starter cut relays operating and the starter solenoid would not operate and it would not turn over.
This leaves the Plug Caps, Coils, Pickup, ECU or Alarm.
I have sent you a PM on how to bypass the Datatool System 3 Alarm you have just to rule it out of the equation. It is definitely a Datatool System 3 you have???
With Ignition off
Check the pick up first as it is the easiest to check. There is only one pick up coil and should have a resistance between 250 and 370 ohms.
Check the connector block (both sides of it) for corrosion scrape any off and give it a good spray of WD40 to keep corrosion at bay.
Next easy one to check is the coil connectors. Under the tank pull off the red/black lead on the coils which supply the 12v power from the Ignition fuse via the kill switch to coils. Check for corrosion scrape off any, spray with WD40 and reconnect. Do the same with the Orange and Grey connectors.
Now the pain in the arse bit, unscrew the plug caps and cut a 1/2 inch off the end of the leads and spray with WD40 and screw them back together. (Mentioned in a previous post in this thread).
If it still does not start after this let us know.
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I know nothing, except that every bike i've had has had issues with alarms. Sooner or later.
I hate them with an undisguised vengeance
Mickey
P.S. But i hate the toe rags that force you to have alarms more.
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I know nothing, except that every bike i've had has had issues with alarms. Sooner or later.
I hate them with an undisguised vengeance
Mickey
P.S. But i hate the toe rags that force you to have alarms more.
I can appreciate the sentiment :eek
Having fitted and fixed a number of different alarms over the years , I would say that 90% of alarm problems are down to being fitted/wired incorrectly.
I have had to rewire and remove many due to this and many were supposed to have been fitted by "trained fitters". :'(
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Cheers for the alarm bypass info Pat,
It worked a bloody treat... After all the fault diagnosis, trial & error, modifying and replacing parts; it was the Datatool S3 all along!
I just need to decide whether to remove it, replace it or modify it to keep the alarm and remove the Immobiliser function...
I owe you a pint mate... ;)
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Or two :D