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Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: davidkent on 18 November 2013, 05:23:22 pm
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Hi all.
Some advice really...
I've had my chain snap last weekend.
I've sulked all week and decided that given its winter, there's no urgency, so as you'd imagine, I've ordered a new sprocket cover already.
My main concern in honesty is that where the clutch rod snapped, its left some inside - This doesn't look all that bad and will probably come out... BUT...
The hole has gone oblong..
Everything else looks relatively in order, except for the chain guard which is basically gone.
I've read online vaguely about bushing this or something similar, but couldn't find all that much info.
I'm assuming this is bad news?
Its a 2003 FZS600
Cheers
EDIT: Pics
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2465_zps3770106b.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2465_zps3770106b.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2467_zpsc46d5921.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2467_zpsc46d5921.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2466_zps7badf5f2.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2466_zps7badf5f2.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2468_zps51ddaea4.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2468_zps51ddaea4.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2464_zps2476c57e.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2464_zps2476c57e.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2469_zps79e727df.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2469_zps79e727df.jpg.html)
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I would be amazed if it had distorted the hole it the gearbox shaft :eek , so I assume it is just the oil seal hole that has distorted. In which case just remove the retaining plate and replace the seal.
If you can't get the rest of the push rod out from the sprocket end you will need to partly dismantle the clutch and push it from that end. Either way don't lose the ball bearing at the clutch end of the push rod.
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Any bits left in the hole---- a magnet maybe to get them out.
I have not seen an instance of a snaped chain on these forums and would be very interested to know the make of chain, any sprocket tooth mods, heavy loads or what caused it.
Any ideas
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Any bits left in the hole---- a magnet maybe to get them out.
I have not seen an instance of a snaped chain on these forums and would be very interested to know the make of chain, any sprocket tooth mods, heavy loads or what caused it.
Any ideas
My money's on being fitted incorrectly!
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Had a chain snap on my FZS years ago. The broken rod can be retrieved with a magnetic screw driver (just make sure you dont lose the ball bearing that sits behind it. As for the hole going oblong are you sure its not just the oil seal?
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:agree darrsi.
I have heard of some poor quality chain out there being sold as good stuff, don't know if it is true or common though :\ .
Otherwise not having enough slack in chain is a good way of overloading it.
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Maybe it was worn out and he didn't change it in time
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Not had the bike long, i think it was too tight - I'm no expert though and could have been a cheap chain, or a combination of the two.
The oil seal is distorted, as has the hole it sits in, looks like soft aluminium, if this can be changed, ie items 27/28 in this drawing, unless they're something else on the other side? [size=78%]https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/special-pages/model.aspx?brand=4&type=13&year=351310&model=351434&part=351470 (https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/special-pages/model.aspx?brand=4&type=13&year=351310&model=351434&part=351470)[/size]
This ball bearing, where exactly does this go? the end of the rod or something? and how does it sit there, I'm intrigued to know this, because people mention it a lot, and i'd have thought surely that if the rod has broken the ball bearing would already have fallen out?
Thanks
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I think items 27-collar & 28-thrust plate are the other end of the gear shaftbehind the clutch basket, the seal you see by the sproket is item 17. The aluminium is the the engine case itself, so might be possible to glue a new seal in or getting some chemical metal there might be a solution.
The ball bearing is item 19 (other end of the push rod)
get a pic up and I am sure someone will advise best option on ally prob.
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Tried getting some pics earlier and wasn't easy, plus my camera was being a goon.
Will post what i got up shortly
Cheers
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heres what the pushrod looks like. Follow the below link for some info on the pushrod
Here is a picture of me with my push rod in my hand------u er misses
I put a very thin layer of engin oil on but still when I pushed it in most of it came off at the rubber seal so I wiped most of it off - I dont think it needs anything
And sorry as it is a perfect shot covering up the oil seal in the background
(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9882.0;attach=7740;image) (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9882.0;attach=7739;image)
And here is almost a picture of a good undamaged seal----middle left next to the sprocket
(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9920.0;attach=7851;image) (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9920.0;attach=7850;image)
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Wow, most of its still in there then - I've got 2 short bits out and thats all!
My main concern is the hole, give me 5 and i'll upload the bad pics that i have managed to get
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Pics are awful and don't really show much, my camera just wouldn't focus!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2457_zpsa8011fe0.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2457_zpsa8011fe0.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2459_zps5e455f94.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2459_zps5e455f94.jpg.html)
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Your camera cant focus because it cant "see" you need to shine a tourch onto it so the camera can then see to focus and then take the picture - and dont try to get so close
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That was in daylight haha
Tried alsorts, it wouldn't focus unless it was something miles away
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Isnt the push rod hollow,mine felt very light and not solid, if so it would snap way before it oval-ed the metal. Once you have cleaned the gunk off you might see better
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I have the seal here in the house, its definitely ovaled.
Looked pretty solid, or the bits i have here seem to..
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If you look at my picture the bottom of the pushrod as I hold it- the tapered part in two steps, the first step is where it fits (i think into a hollow tube) which i also think is alluminium. The bit at the bottom is what is left sticking out of the hole which is why its rusty and that is the bit you have and that bit is solid
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Makes sense i guess
The hole on the bike is definately ovaled unfortunately, hopefully there's a way around this
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Ah yes if you see my rusty line and then shiney untill the alli that amount of solid is in the hole so I would then think it was possible to oval the metal. As geek says- chemical metal there might be a solution.
To get the hole end back to round and then a new rubber seal
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Maybe silly suggestion but could a washer be used?
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Had crossed my mind, I'm not certain how the seal actually fits, could potentially even weld a washer in there
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Your camera cant focus because it cant "see" you need to shine a tourch onto it so the camera can then see to focus and then take the picture - and dont try to get so close
The camera can't focus because it's too close, look in the menu and switch to "macro" for close up shots.
That is presuming he's using a digital phone/camera.
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Had crossed my mind, I'm not certain how the seal actually fits, could potentially even weld a washer in there
Wow :eek . I don't understand why you would want to weld a washer there :\ .
Looking at your overall photo it looks like the steel tab that stops the oil seal coming out has been bent down. By this I mean the steel plate that is held in place by two 6mm cap head screws, one directly above the sprocket and one below the sprocket. Item 36 in this link https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/special-pages/model.aspx?brand=4&type=13&year=351310&model=351434&part=351467 (https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/special-pages/model.aspx?brand=4&type=13&year=351310&model=351434&part=351467) That plate acts to stop the drive shaft oil seal moving out and also part of the plate just covers the push-rod seal to stop that dropping out. Normally it shouldn't be doing much but in your case it could be a good thing.
This is what I suggest.
1. Get the rest of the push rod out. If the steel bit you have looks brocken then there should still be some in the rest of the push-rod, so as suggested before a magnetic screw driver might work. If all the steel end has come out then you might get a grip on the alloy tube with a long wood screw or something. If not then it's off with the clutch cover and tackle it from that side.
2. Replace the oil seal. As long as there is enough undamaged crankcase hole to locate the new oil seal in the correct position, (there will be), put the oil seal in and fill any gaps with chemical metal as suggested by fazersharp.
3. Make sure that oil seal cover plate is ok. If not get a new one or make a better one.
4. Fit replacement push rod and outer cover.
5. Follow instructions for setting clutch cable and away you go.
The end.
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To be fair ebme geek said it first (chem metal)
I have a question----- how wet is the clutch or is it sort of splashed with oil. when I took out my pushrod -yes the seal MAY of wiped off most of any oil there but ive pushed it in and out and the hole as far as I can see has nothing more that a thin layer of oil in there. And the seal was not tight.
What Im saying is how good a seal do you need there
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fazersharp. At a guess I'd say the clutch is just above the stationary oil level but the gear on the clutch might be in it. Either way when it's running oil will be splashed about all over the place and the clutch will get some and gears will get a good soaking. The clutch push rod is fairly well hidden in there and with centrifugal force wont see much of of the oil. More of a worry would be grit etc getting in if the seal was really bad. Unless you're thinking of riding in about 18 inches of water and the seal is not making contact I wouldn't worry about it.
Edit. Actually the gear on the clutch basket is above the stationary oil level and it is the oil pump gear that dips into it. Still the same effect though of oil all over the place when running.
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I see - its not for my seal but for the OP to know how good his new bodge up needs to be. Although I was interested too in the workings
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When running i'm sure it'll be under a bit of pressure.
I have some better pics now, which I'll upload in a minute.
Limax, what you're saying sounds right to an extent, but the bit doesn't look replaceable at all, but yes perhaps a new seal and something to seal it well could work, personal experience says Chemical metal isn't all that great though, but surely perhaps some kind of instant gasket to fill the gap between the ovaled hole and the seal?
Pics may explain more in a sec
Cheers
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2465_zps3770106b.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2465_zps3770106b.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2467_zpsc46d5921.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2467_zpsc46d5921.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2466_zps7badf5f2.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2466_zps7badf5f2.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2468_zps51ddaea4.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2468_zps51ddaea4.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2464_zps2476c57e.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2464_zps2476c57e.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/davidkent89/100_2469_zps79e727df.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/davidkent89/media/100_2469_zps79e727df.jpg.html)
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Is that a 9mm sprocket nut i can see?
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Probably, though slightly irrelevant now as it'll be changed with the replacement parts :)
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Probably, though slightly irrelevant now as it'll be changed with the replacement parts :)
For anyone who's not sure, you can see in David's photo's that the sprocket nut is not flush with the end of the shaft and you can still see a couple of threads, the new 12mm nut sits totally in line with the end of the shaft so you shouldn't see any thread at all.
Sorry for slightly going off topic but it's a good photo to explain it. :)
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No worries, explains it a little better for myself anyway
Cheers
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What was your experience with chemical metal? It would be interesting to hear, as a number of people have considered it for various fixes, but I've yet to see anything definitive on the subject. I would've thought it'd be ok in this instance, as the application area shouldn't need to take much stress of any kind?
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Just not holding, falling off and the like, as a general rule
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No experience in this myself, but is it too delicate/awkward an area to build up a little weld on?
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The more i think of it the more i think this could be the option really...
Just finding someone to do it, usually material dependant - i don't even know what the crank case is made of, i'm sure it isn't straight aluminium, but a cast?
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I have some experience of having a crankcase welded - not a good experience unfortunately.
I had a Kwak 750 H2 that wouldn't change gear - absolutely solid on the lever. Had the engine out and apart to find that the crankcase had cracked around the gearbox area. A friend of mine who was a pretty experienced welder had a try, but every time he tried to weld a bit, the heat just distorted and cracked the cases elsewhere. BUT, the cases on that bike were a really crappy quality ally, very thin and easily prone to cracking (vibration used to crack them around the engine mounts - they were known for it.) I think maybe the Fazer would withstand welding on the cases a lot better? Not sure though... :\
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Ah i see.
My local Yamaha Dealer did forward me on to some places for crank case welding if they'd split, apparently they'd used them before - Plus, as its a small area i can't see it being all too much greif really..
Worth an ask, assumably its cast and not just alu?
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Not a metallurgist myself - I thought cast was just the method of producing the item, as opposed to extruded etc. But yes, just aluminium as far as I'm aware. Might be different grades? Now you need someone above my (extremely) limited knowledge :rolleyes
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I see,
I thought it was mixed with other compounds to make the 'casting' as such
I may be wrong however
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Looks like a 9 to me I seem to remember the 12 is flush.
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Some good photo's there David :) .
The hole to hold the oil seal doesn't look too bad to me. The obviously oval part of the casting is just a clearance hole for the push-rod and as long as it is not rubing on the push rod or the bearing inside it doesn't matter what shape it is and will be o.k.
I take it you have not yet tried a new oil seal yet. You might find it is a good fit anyway. But you obviously need to do something about the retaining plate.
I think the main issue with chemical metal is having the parts to be fixed spotlessly clean.
On the subject of welding, is it the oval hole you were thinking of or the recess for the oil seal, approx 22mm dia? If it is that oval hole just leave it for the reason I've just given.
If you are struggling to get the push rod out it is no big deal to get to the other end, but you might need a new gasket for the cover. You just need to take the clutch cover off, then undue the six bolts that hold the clutch pressure plate and remove that plate. The rest of the clutch can stay put. You then lift out a short stepped push rod and catch the 5/16" ball bearing. (Strangley not a metric size). Then you can push the push rod from either side.
If you do it all from the chain side and you are not sure if the ball bearing has dropped out measure the distance from the end of the new push rod to the sprocket cover fitting face. It should be round about 32 to 33mm. If it is 8mm less the ball bearing has gone.
When I mentioned adjusting the clutch cable in a previouse post I should have said it is the adjustment opposite the push rod in the sprocket cover that need some care.
Keep us informed and good luck.
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Limax - You've just made my day.
So potentially, with a new oil seal, it should be fine?
My concern was that the oil seal used that to seat, but if it uses the larger outer edge to seat, then as you say it shouldn't be a huge problem anyway.
Also helps with the ball bearing - So basically, if i push the new rod on in, as far as it'll go, it should stick out around 32mm, if its closer to the 24-25mm mark with it stationary as it is, then the bearing has gone?
How does the bearing fit? obviously if i don't have to drop the oil and remove the clutch cover, i'd rather not and so this solution makes sense.
I was simply under the impression that the oval hole was what seats the seal and left me basically screwed - the back of the hole still looks round, its actually just the face that seems ovaled.
In short, replace all the clutch rod, seal and so on, stick it back together and it should be fine?
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You have got the idea Dave and glad I made your day :) .
The ball bearing sits in the bore of the gearbox input shaft between the short push rod, at the clutch end, and the long push rod (245mm long) that you will be replacing. It can't drop out at the clutch end unless you remove the pressure plate and short push rod. It doesn't usually drop out at the sprocket end but it can do, especially with no oil seal there.
There is another ball bearing in the withdrawal mechanism but that is trapped in there so no problem.
If you do have to remove the clutch cover you can put the bike on the side stand and hardly any oil will come out. On the centre stand some might come out but not a lot.
"In short, replace all the clutch rod, seal and so on, stick it back together and it should be fine?" But not forgetting to check and maybe adjust the screw behind the rubber bung in the sprocket cover, especially with having changed the push rod. Details of how to are on this site somewhere I think.
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Right,
Thats all i needed to know then.
Thanks :)
Now, where can i get all these bits online? it just so happens to be pay day ;)
Also, what are decent brands of Chain and sprockets? and original teeth etc?
Basically I'll need:
Clutch Rod
Clutch Rod oil seal
Ball bearing (Possibly)
Sprockets
Sprocket Nut and Tab Washer
Retaining plate for clutch rod oil seal (Assuming thats the bracket i've mullered near the sprocket?)
Chain
and is there a gasket for the sprocket cover?
Cheers
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His ball bearing should still be in there because the rod has snaped where it turns to alluminium and is still in there as far as I know.
Dave can you post a picture of the bit of the pushrod that you do have
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I have 2 small bits of Solid pushrod, the bulk is still in there nicely
Will get a pic shortly
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If you look at my picture you can just about see the retaining plate/tab, yours has bent down, you dont need a gasket for the sprocket cover ---- is the gereral consensus on this forum
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Yeah wondered what that was for lol
Sounds good - Now its just finding an online supplier and the bits - Then a half sensible chain and sprocket set :)
Cheers
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When you order the sprocket nut and lock-washer make sure you ask for part number 90891-10124. That is a kit of both the 12mm nut and lock-washer. Some Yamaha dealers will still look up the old 9mm nut and supply it.
Any Yamaha dealer should be able to order them. I've never done it on-line myself but Fowlers of Bristol and Wemoto are a couple that seem to get good reports. There are others.
Standard sprocket teeth are 15 front and 48 rear. Any well known brand of chain like D.I.D. and EK should be o.k. but I would avoid cheaper less known brands.
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Sounds good, will look for that part number specifically
I had thought D.I.D were a reasonable brand so will probably go with them also.
Thanks
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Back to an old thread - I've sorn'd the bike for the time being, with this weather and all that...
BUT, i do have lots of shiny parts sat here waiting to do the job - Just thought i'd get back on here :)
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What was your experience with chemical metal? It would be interesting to hear, as a number of people have considered it for various fixes, but I've yet to see anything definitive on the subject. I would've thought it'd be ok in this instance, as the application area shouldn't need to take much stress of any kind?
JB weld's the one to use.
Takes like forever to cure, but good stuff once set & temperature resistant.
Excellent for filling in gouges in alternator covers prior to respray for instance. :o
http://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-weld/ (http://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-weld/)
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Sounds good to be fair, though i think i've cracked this problem with another method - Will soon see i guess.
Cannot wait to get the bike sorted, but unfortunately the MOT ran out last week, i thought it was April - I was wrong.
Have to get fixed then find a decent tester around here - Never MOT'd a bike before!