old - Fazer Owners Club - old
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Torque on 31 October 2013, 11:02:01 pm
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Hiya,
My Yamaha was not used for almost 2 weeks, then 2 days ago I've got the parts, replaced some and went for MOT. Everything was fine till today.
I've went back from a trip, it has no power and didn't rev on gear higher than 4k, if you open throttle more than 1/4 it's starts to splutter, but it splutters very gently, like it was planned or ECU programmed. You just need to give it less throttle and it does not splutter.
It has no power to go on hill higher than few %, also won't go faster than 50mph.
I can rev it without gear till 7k rpm, but the vibration and noise is very bad.
Since there is no magic there can be 2 issues, fuel or ignition, right?
I was trying to remove spark plug cables separately then start engine, but engine runs much worse even If I remove one of them (so I assume that it's not related with just 1 cylinder or 1 faulty spark plugs).
What you think I should check next?
I know that carb sync and valve clearance it's important, but I don't think that such a power drop would happen after 2 days. I will do it in a next few weeks.
I've 4 guesses:
a) Water in fuel (have issues with tank drain pipe, which is blocked right now to not leak), but I don't think that it would happen in a 2 days.
Motorcycle was running well after 2 weeks of resting, so 2 days are not so much?
b) Coil/coils?
c) Fuel pump
d) Is there ECU or something like that to check?
What's your guess and what's the way to check it? I've most of necessary tools and multimeter (to check voltage, resistance etc.)
Thanks guys
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Sounds very similar to when my fuel pump was packing up. Does the pump prime for longer then usual?
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Mileage?
Service history / recent work?
You say you've replaced parts - what were they (ie, is it possible you've disturbed something during the work you've done?)?
You say you pulled the plug leads off - the cylinder you disconnected must have been firing properly (hence why it ran even worse after; if it were faulty, pulling that lead off would make no difference). Have you tried the same with the remaining leads (or, indeed, have you one downpipe cooler than the rest?)?
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If it were me I'd:
1) Drain the carb float bowls
2) Drain the tank and replace with new fuel
3) Bypass the fuel pump
4) Bypass the fuel filter
And see if there was a difference.
Assuming there wasn't any difference, I'd clean out the carbs (jets and airways).
And if none of that worked, I'd look at the ignition system.
Which for me, means staring vacantly at the ECU hoping God would miraculously intervene.
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Have you had the tank up/off?
Kinked fuel line maybe, and is the fuel tap switched fully on?
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Sounds like fuel starvation/tank vacuuming, more than likely kinked breather hoses on the underside of the tank, could be fuel pump or filter
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Thanks guys for help.
Mileage?
Service history / recent work?
Mileage 40k+, service history unknown from previous 10k.
You say you've replaced parts - what were they (ie, is it possible you've disturbed something during the work you've done?)?
Just suspension and brake system. Shouldn't affect.
You say you pulled the plug leads off - the cylinder you disconnected must have been firing properly (hence why it ran even worse after; if it were faulty, pulling that lead off would make no difference). Have you tried the same with the remaining leads (or, indeed, have you one downpipe cooler than the rest?)?
I've tried all cylinders and all of them works fine (because it works much worse after pulling plug leads off)
Have you had the tank up/off?
Kinked fuel line maybe, and is the fuel tap switched fully on?
No I hadn't last time, however I will double check it.
Assuming guys you point fuel issues, then I will focus on it. It's already dark, but hopefully tomorrow morning if it's not raining I will be able to do something.
Thanks you are insane ;)
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It's to dark today to do something, but I've ridden her just to "trace" the issue and noticed that you can exceed the 4k RPM by just pushing throttle to the limit. It splutters very badly, but accelerating, after it exceed 6k-7k RPM it's splutters a little or going smooth (depends on mood).
Tomorrow I will drain all the fuel, then refill with fresh one. If it won't help then I will bypass fuel pump and filter. If it won't help then I will measure resistance of coils. If it won't help then I will get the carbs off and clean it. If it won't help then... I will read all 40+ pages of FZS 600 splutters topic on the forum ;)
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I think it's going to be clean the pilot jets out and the fine drillings (airwways).
Which means taking the carbs off I'm afraid.
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Simple things first: catch the fluid you drain out of the carbs so you can see whether there is water present.. if that's not the problem, check the air intake... a rag left there, for example, can do a good job of strangling the power.
<edit> My guess the pilot jets are clear, if it starts and runs at low speed the problem sounds more like air or fuel starvation.
One check you can do when it's dark is check the plug caps, leads and coils for sparks tracking.
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Do a quick TPS check as well, they make the bike run like shite when they break down.
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Ok I've drained old fuel from tank and carbs.
Filter seems to be fine (not blocked), since when I was draining fuel it was going down very fast.
When I've replaced with new fuel, I've switched off then on bike for a few times, so pump could build the pressure. (I could hear clicks).
Checked coils resistance 2,4ohm (both) and pick up coil resistance 199ohm.
When I've ignited bike, it wasn't running smooth for a 2 seconds, then started running fine.
Went for a ride and was suprised, because was running much much better. At the beginning it was still spluterring, but after a mile it was running almost fine. I was trying to push it few times very hard and was going as it should. However after few miles problem was almost the same as it was before fuel change.
I had no idea, then I've checked TPS and saw 10k RPM (which means that angle is wrong). I was trying to adjust it, but my torx key do not have hole inside so I could not unscrew it :( .
I need to buy this TORX then I will try. Hope that TPS angle it's the only problem.
It seems that it's quite random.
EDIT:
I would like to replace the spark plugs, HT Leads and plug caps, just in case, but it seems that HT Leads are not changeable due to seal in ignition coil, right?
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Ok I've drained old fuel from tank and carbs.
Filter seems to be fine (not blocked), since when I was draining fuel it was going down very fast.
When I've replaced with new fuel, I've switched off then on bike for a few times, so pump could build the pressure. (I could hear clicks).
Checked coils resistance 2,4ohm (both) and pick up coil resistance 199ohm.
When I've ignited bike, it wasn't running smooth for a 2 seconds, then started running fine.
Went for a ride and was suprised, because was running much much better. At the beginning it was still spluterring, but after a mile it was running almost fine. I was trying to push it few times very hard and was going as it should. However after few miles problem was almost the same as it was before fuel change.
I had no idea, then I've checked TPS and saw 10k RPM (which means that angle is wrong). I was trying to adjust it, but my torx key do not have hole inside so I could not unscrew it :( .
I need to buy this TORX then I will try. Hope that TPS angle it's the only problem.
It seems that it's quite random.
EDIT:
I would like to replace the spark plugs, HT Leads and plug caps, just in case, but it seems that HT Leads are not changeable due to seal in ignition coil, right?
Yep, leads are part of the coils, just trim about 5mm off the cap end to give it a clean up.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=ngk+sp050&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=ngk+SD05F&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=ngk+sp050&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=ngk+SD05F&_sacat=0)
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Thanks, I've ordered those caps with and set of plugs: NGK CR9E.
I've adjusted TPS so it shows 5k RPM also I've measured resistance and it starts from 0,8k and goes up to 4,6k. It seems to be that TPS is fine.
After that went for a ride, but bike was running really bad, no power to ride even 30mph.
I've went back and was trying to measure coils resistance on HT leads, I've removed plug caps and was measuring resistance between 1,2 cylinder HT lead and 2,4, but it was inifinite.
Now I've realised that I should measure propably between 1 and 4 cylinder and 2 and 3 (possibly that's the coils configuration). I will repeat that when got new plugs.
EDIT:
I will wait till spark plugs arrive, however my guess now it's ECU or fuel pump.
I don't think that just 2 days when motorcycle was not used, could affect all cylinders. Even if carb jet is blocked possibly only 1 carb and in effet 1 cylinder wouldn't work properly. not all of them.
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Measured HT leads on coils, both had 14,6k ohm.
Replaced all spark plugs and spark caps.
Bypassed fuel pump.
Still got the same issue.
I will have 2nd ECU tomorrow, but now it's possibly clear what's wrong -> carbs.
Do you think that removing them, dismounting, using some carb cleaner from halfords and mounting them again should help?
When I remove them is there anything to check, adjust or just clean?
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Replaced the ECU. Still it's the same, bike starts like a charm, but adding gas make it die.
Basically I would worry if bike would have enough power to move.
I've detached carbs and dismantled them. All float tanks had some kind of rust at the bottom, but jets looked clear.
What you think my problem could be?
Can you point me to guide how to proper clean the carburetors please?
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have you chkd the diaphrams in top of carbs?..ie, for splits or holes etc?....also make sure sliders are moving freely?....
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This still sounds like fuel over or under supply or air starvation to me.
Are the plugs sooting up? Check the fuel levels in the carbs by opening the drain with a length of transparent tube attached in a "U".
Have you checked the air intake is clear?
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Choke's not stuck in the "on" position is it?
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Have you checked the air filter? Sounds like classic symptoms of a badger in the airbox. I'd check the airfilter and if its ok clean the carbs.
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Have you tried by-passing the fuel pump and fuel filter yet?
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if the sliders are sticking?....that wont help matters!!
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have you chkd the diaphrams in top of carbs?..ie, for splits or holes etc?....also make sure sliders are moving freely?....
They are fine, sliders move freely.
Choke's not stuck in the "on" position is it?
They are not stuck. It's fine.
Have you tried by-passing the fuel pump and fuel filter yet?
Yes. Did not help.
Have you checked the air filter? Sounds like classic symptoms of a badger in the airbox. I'd check the airfilter and if its ok clean the carbs.
Not yet. Thanks for advice. Definitely will do it tomorrow.
This still sounds like fuel over or under supply or air starvation to me.
Are the plugs sooting up? Check the fuel levels in the carbs by opening the drain with a length of transparent tube attached in a "U".
Have you checked the air intake is clear?
When I changed plugs. Old were suprisingly clean, so it's like under supply or air starvation?
Assuming:I've dismantled carbs, cleaned with some Halford carb cleaner and screwed them back.
However I was fighting almost 2 hours to fit them on bike and it's f**** hard to me.
First I've spent almost 30 minutes on connecting throttle links.
After that about 1 hour fitting carbs into airbox rubber gums then still did not manage them to fit into engine.
I think also that doing that on the cold evening does not help, since temperature make that rubber not soft enough.
I don't know what's the easy method to do that? Maybe use some soap/oil to fill the rubbers from the inside?
However seeing above advice, will check the airbox when carbs are fitted properly (hopefully)
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Had same problem refitting carbs tonight.
I put the support bracket on that holds the coils, fuel pump and filter. I then use minimal amount of carb cleaner sprayed onto metal carbs and used a screw driver to jimmy from the support bracket and it slipped in solidly.
Check that none of the rubber connections are cracked/split and do the everything up tight. after replacing everything I turned the ignition on twice before firing her up. The fuel pump clicked less the second time I primed the fuel. Bike started like a dream and then I adjusted the idle.
I only ran the bike for 5 mins as my water level is lower due to working on the carbs. So in the morning I am flushing the coolant and adding new. I also replaced my air filter with a K&N.
I noticed when I clean my carbs I had a black sooty substance in carbs 2 & 3 and put this down to the U bend filter that I also used carb cleaner on. I did leave this for 7 days to dry out
Hope you get her fixed soon mate.
Daz
PS make sure the you have tightened up the air box
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also chk that none of the inlet rubbers are folded in on themselves after you put carbs bk on?..someone on here had that problem?.....plus did you chk those diaphrams?
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also chk that none of the inlet rubbers are folded in on themselves after you put carbs bk on?..someone on here had that problem?.....plus did you chk those diaphrams?
That'll be me :'(
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YEP!!....it was him above"...remember now :lol .....
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[...]Bike started like a dream and then I adjusted the idle. [...]
Hope you get her fixed soon mate.
Daz
PS make sure the you have tightened up the air box
I am glad yours fixed.
BTW. Did you adjust idle jet? Mine were 4 turns unscrewed, so I've made them 2 turns out (start position for further adjustments) instead.
also chk that none of the inlet rubbers are folded in on themselves after you put carbs bk on?..someone on here had that problem?.....plus did you chk those diaphrams?
That'll be me :'(
Thanks guys. I will triple check everything. Of course don't want to repeat mistakes :) .
However if you do not make any mistakes, how do we learn and avoid them?
I wait till it stops raining, since don't have own garage. Cheers
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OK so I have fitted carbs back. I've turned off then turned on the ignition twice, so pump built some pressure.
After igniting about 6-7 times for 3-4 seconds bike started to give some noise, then ignited, but only 1 and 4 cylinder were working.
I've checked and one of the coils was connected in the wrong way. After I've connected coil back, bike ignited on 4 cylinders.
However still issue exists.
So I have checked fuel level in float tanks in carbs. I've only checked 1,2 and 4 cylinder since could not fit the plastic hose because of starter motor (below the carb). Fuel level was fine.
I've also checked the air filter and it was not clogged.
I have no ideas what could be wrong. Bike starts and runs fine, but if you add gas quickly it dies.
I've also noticed that it runs much better when choke is enabled (you can add gas quickly and it won't die), so I think it's under fuelling?
I can't understand it how bike can run very fine one day and be not driveable the other day? I would understand if it started slightly stuttering, but this is terrible.
Basically I've gave up today and totally have no ideas about that.
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I'm not an expert, but I think you may have some crap in one of the carb jets. Sorry if someone has already suggested this.
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1. I don't have much experience, so if one cylinder it's not working due to carb issue does it affect other cylinders very much?
I thought that engine will still rev fine, but less power and some vibrations and different noise.
2. I've noticed that my carburetors have some kind of air hose:
http://postimg.org/image/6v0zxde45/ (http://postimg.org/image/6v0zxde45/)
but it's not connected anywhere, should it be?
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That hose coming from the fuel filter should return to the fuel pump....
Surely its not that as it would piss fuel everywhere??
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My fuel hoses are connected like: tank -> filter -> pump -> carbs.
I am pretty sure that this one has something to do with air, not fuel.
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Net filter, number 37?
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chk ..number 18...for rips,or pin holes!!
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The more I read this I keep thinking "fuel pump", not delivering enough when its needed...
How do the plugs look??
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2. I've noticed that my carburetors have some kind of air hose:
[url]http://postimg.org/image/6v0zxde45/[/url] ([url]http://postimg.org/image/6v0zxde45/[/url])
but it's not connected anywhere, should it be?
That filter just sits in that position and nothing is connected the open side. It has a metal mesh inside I took mine off and sprayed it with carb cleaner then left it to dry completely.
The jets you mention are you talking about the pilot screw jets? That sit on the under side of carb housing and is accessed with out taking the bowls of? If So I nipped mine up and then did 5 half turns that would equate to 2 full and 1 half turn. My number four pilot screw was no where near the other 3. So make sure they are all similar.
Unsure if it has solved my stuttering problem as I have not had chance to take it for a run. I also did a coolant flush and I could not believe the amount of particulates that I flushed out.
Daz
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Pump info
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You say the tank breather is blocked to stop it leaking, if air can't get into the tank fuel can't get out, try it with the cap open and see if the problem goes away.
Does it make a sucking sound when you open the cap?
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You say the tank breather is blocked to stop it leaking, if air can't get into the tank fuel can't get out, try it with the cap open and see if the problem goes away.
Does it make a sucking sound when you open the cap?
There are 2 hoses, breath and drain.
[size=78%]I've got now drain hose blocked, but breath it's not blocked.[/size]
Net filter, number 37?
Right, I've got it, but was curious if it's connected to anywhere.
chk ..number 18...for rips,or pin holes!!
They look almost like brand new.
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Have you checked that the exup valve moves freely? The 600s do have exup valves, dont they? I only picked up my gen1 1000 yesterday, so I'm very new to these, but my yzf750 had a stuck exup valve, and the symptoms were the same as you describe.
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no exup on the 600....another one to cross off the list ;)
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I've left my bike for about 1 month, because was quite busy last time.
I've tried to run it today, so I've opened the fuel and switched ignition twice so pump could build up pressure.
I think that my mistake was that month ago bike ran about 1 minute without tank, so there was not so much fuel left in carbs.
Now before pump could build a pressure there was leak from 2 hoses coming out from carbs, so I think that float valve was opened all the time.
Since leak was not the only issue, because bike was not running good before I've took of carbs and going to do proper job again.
Last time I've used Wynns carb cleaner, but as you see that was not enough.
I think about buying ultrasonic cleaner, but my question is if I clean it with ultrasonic cleaner, rinse it, do I need to have a compressor to remove the water or I can just leave them opened for few hours/days and they will be fine? I can not afford right now to buy ultrasonic cleaner and compressor at once.
What ultrasonic cleaner do you recommend to buy?
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Is it really worth spending the money on an ultrasonic cleaner and a compressor just to clean one set of carbs? Why not give the carbs to a proper bike mechanic let him clean and inspect them. I'd say it wouldn't cost more than an hours labour
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Yes and no. 1 hour of labour gives about 60 quids. This is the start price for Ultrasonic Cleaner right?
I know, but intstead of spending lots of money on paying for services I prefer to get more more workshop stuff.
That's possibly not my last bike, also I've got 2 cars... there is always anything to do with that.
... also I am not sure how long I will ride a bike during a winter... so I assume when there will be summer I will have to clean carbs again... so it means paying again for service.
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It so screams ignition breakdown.
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Yesterday all the evening I've disassembled carbs, splitted, boiled, joined together and soaked with spray carb cleaner.
Today I've spent morning assembling carbs back and afternoon fitting them back.
Bike started, however 3,4 cylinders are not firing. It seems to be fuel problem.
The good point is that even having 2 cylinders engine don't get choked and throttle is responsive.
I've drained 3,4 carbs and tried to apply some Wynns carb through the drain valve, however it did not help.
I've checked spark plugs and were dry, seems to be fuel problem.
Crap crap crap... I am pretty sure that's the problem when you don't have the compressor.
I am angry on myself, because maybe I should from very very start buying compressor + ultrasonic cleaner or just pay someone to do it.
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I've got a compressor and few litres of vinegar. Update soon, fingers crossed it must work !
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Right. Carbs cleaned very carefully. Dried with compressed air.
After carb sync, bike started run on all 4 gears. Idle is still rough as it was, but it's not worse.
You won't believe there is still the same issue, but now it looks different.
It stutters mostly on revs lower than 6k, but this is no clue it can stutters than runs fine, after few yards it can stutter again.
If you have high rev and add lots of gas it will stutter for few sec than go like rocket.
If you have medium&low rev it can stutter for few sec and start to accelerate normally but can die as well.
Basically now I don't think is the carbs issue. I am going to check ignition coils and ECU again (I've got replacement). If not then I will buy ignition coils. If it don't work then all I can do it's sell my bike :) ... but already invested too much effort. I want to really fix it.
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Check your carb to head rubbers for a vacuum leak, easy to check, not so cheap to fix though.
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The silliest questions are the ones we don't ask, except maybe this one....
Are all four of the little black rubber vacuum nipple boots (tee hee, "nipple Boots") in place.
The ones you take off to balance the carbs.
I say this because i left one off last time I balanced the carbs and the bike was a pain to start, ran rough an died when I gave it gas.
If they are all in place, are they sound? i.e no cracks or splits?
I'd hate it if it was something so small!! But it's probably not. :b
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Are all four of the little black rubber vacuum nipple boots (tee hee, "nipple Boots") in place.
They are in place and they have no cracks.
I've managed to record a video: FZS 600 - stutters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yywJhcy9x8#)
At the beginning bike it's just slightly warm and runs like crap, but check for example moment after 2m and 45s
It runs much much better, I've even lost the traction, it was slighty wet though.
In addition to previous posts I've also cleaned the underseat, ECU, coils, fuel pump, electrical connections.
I've also cleaned the carbs again with vinegar and blowed them with my newly bought 24l compressor.
Becaused I dismantled them I had to sync them again, also I changed the setting for IDLE (which is crap right now), but it does not really affect the issued I have with that bike.
Any one in Trowbridge, Bath, Bristol area is happy to have look at it / fix it (of course for money, time is precious)?
I like working on my bike, but this is actually much more smarter than me... I am angry on myself and have totally no idea what's wrong with it.
I didn't checked the valve clearence also I did not try to replace the pickup coil (however it seems to be pointless if ohms are OK?)
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This sounds pretty similar to mine, if you work it out please let us know what it was!
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I know you've already done it, but do another TPS check.
The fact yours was out before means it's possible that it's breaking down, especially as i notice your bike is the same mileage as mine.
Mine broke down very gradually, and i took a chance changing it, but just before i changed it the reading was correct and although the bike ran like shit it was ridable.
When i last balanced my carbs it was suggested to make sure the TPS was set before and after balancing.
So, if you had a moody TPS i'm guessing it's "possible" that the carbs maybe balanced incorrectly?
Feel free to knock that theory down if i'm talking out of turn here?
But out of sync carbs could cause the vibration and rough running i was hearing in the video couldn't it?
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Sounds a bit like it's running on three cylinders at the start. Try throwing some water on the headers and see if they dry at the same rate
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The easiest way to prove a pickup coil is faulty is to swap it.
A resistance check will show some types of failure, but not all. It's possible for two adjacent turns to short together... this makes sod all difference to the overall resistance of the coil, but kills the pulse completely.
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This sounds exactly as though your plug caps have broken down, it's what mine did. Get a new set of NGK ones off eBay for about 15 quid, unscrew the old ones, trim the leads down a few mm for a good contact and fit the new ones. Sorted mine out completely and g had the same symptoms as you
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This sounds exactly as though your plug caps have broken down, it's what mine did. Get a new set of NGK ones off eBay for about 15 quid, unscrew the old ones, trim the leads down a few mm for a good contact and fit the new ones. Sorted mine out completely and g had the same symptoms as you
Of course that was the very first thing I did. There was no difference at all.
Currently I am waiting for the spare alternator wirings and pick-up coil. Will replace and see what happen.
I guess my problem is related with electrical system malfunction.
Anyway did not check the Rectifier yet (don't have even idea whow to check it), but it should not cause any problem right? It's just rectifier?
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Well, i might as well throw my tuppence into the ring.
My bike had a similar problem when it was at the dyno man's, turned out that the charging system was conflicting with the ignition system, replaced the reg/rec unit and all was well, although the problem did cause one of the cells on the battery to bulge slightly.
G ; )
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Ah, that's interesting BluprintZ... the same cause as in Red98's stuttering thread. Though, if it upset the battery too it may have been been a simple failure of regulation allowing the volts to get too high for the ignition to cope.
Torque: a basic check of the reg/rect just needs a voltmeter to check the battery volts rise from 12.7 (ish) when the bike's stood overnight to 14.5 (ish) by 5000 rpm with the headlights on and doesn't rise beyond that at higher revs. That indicates a healthy battery, charging and regulation.
IIRC Red98's regulator seemed ok on that check and my guess is that it had gone into some weird oscillating mode, the simplest check for that is to swap it.
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The conflict between the charging and ignition systems was showing up on the Dyno's oscilloscope as two "tracer" lines, when there should have been only one, for the ignition system test.
That, apparently is how he sussed out that there was a conflict.
The reg/rec unit was around £50 brand new on ebay and that instantly sorted the problem, although as i mentioned, the damage to the battery cell had already been caused by this problem.
G ; )
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wow what a long thread to sort out. mine had same problem sorted in seconds. but I guess it wont fix yours. I bought a new long d lock. took off cardboard and put that bit under my seat. it slid down between petrol tank and air filter. bike run to top speed of 50mph. pulled out cardboard and bike went ok. end of. if only yours was that simple..... or have you bought. naaa you cant be as lucky as me. ru?
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I've replaced rectifier a week ago, but it didn't help.
Today I've replaced alternator and pick-up coil, it didn't help :)
Now the only thing I would like to replace are the ignition coils.
Do you think that it's better to buy used or "china" brand new? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Ignition-HT-Coil-Yamaha-FZS600-Fazer-98-03-/190614785844?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2c6186cf34 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Ignition-HT-Coil-Yamaha-FZS600-Fazer-98-03-/190614785844?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2c6186cf34)
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If it were me personally I would go for 2nd hand genuine ones, however, I'm sure people have used your linked item with success.
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I've bought the brand new. It's just a coil, so I don't think it should really matter if it's genuine.
Update very soon.
Fingers crossed.
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Ok guys. Done lots lots of things, but the stutters problem still happens.
What I've already done:
- disassembling, dismantling carbs, cleaning with detergent and blowing with compressor, put them back, then synchronized, caps (for synchro) are in place. Inlet rubbers are fine, diaphragms are fine, and moving without problems;
I've set the idle screws 2,25 turns out.
- replaced spark plugs, spark caps, bought brand new HT coils (chinese one), replaced the ECU, replaced the alternator and pick-up coil,
- measured the resistance of TPS and adjusted it, so it's on 5K rpm,
- replaced the fuel with a new one, also added some isopropyl additive (to make sure there is no water),
- sprayed all connectors, plugs, near the ECU, the alternator and pick-up coil plugs and all plugs in the compartment just under the fuel tank with the electric cleaner: http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_195717_langId_-1_categoryId_255223 (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_195717_langId_-1_categoryId_255223)
- checked if choke cable it's not too tight (and choke it's not enabled as a result)
- checked and cleaned the air filter,
- bypassed the fuel filter and fuel pump to test whether bike works better (no effect at all)
The problem in short:
- When very cold, bike starts, on idle it runs like on 2-3 cylinders. Adding gas more than 1/10th results in bike starts stuttering. Adding full gas at this moment means that you won't hear any engine noise except the throttle: 'buuuuuu'. Reaching 30mph means really smart throttle play, if not your engine will die.
When you push a throttle very little like 1/20th or sth, there is chance that you will hear proper engine noise and bike running on 4 cylinders, but if you try to add more... unfortunately dies.
- When warmer (after about 1 mile), bike still runs on less than 3 cylinders, but the difference is that adding full gas don't kill it, it makes bike stutters and backfiring for 2 sec, then it accelerates with about 20-30% of it's power.
- When warm (after about 5 miles), same as above, but have somewhere around the 50% of power, also sometimes you can feel the vibrations like the only 1 cylinder does not work.
- Still warm (after about 10 miles). Bike most likely runs on 3 cylinders, but when you hit the gas carefully (not more than half) then you can hear sometimes 4 cylinders running. Sudden accelerations cause the backfire, struggling for a sec then accelerating with sometimes full power, sometimes somewhere around 70-80%.
- Still warm (after about 20 miles). Bike basically works on 4 cylinders (in the mid and high range). Idle is always like 3 cylinders running. Rare situation when it struggles to accelerate, most likely it means that you've suddenly pushed throttle from low range.
Some notes:
- Adding choke when bike stutters makes thing better, you can add little bit more gas, and skyrocket your speed (in the first stage of stutters) from 30mph to insane 40mph,
- Bike was not used for about 2 weeks and was under cover, but noticed that there is some water around the 3rd cylinder (the cylinder that's exhaust little bit colder when bike starts),
- My method of detecting how many cylinders are running it's just noise from the exhaust combined with the vibrations that you can feel on handle bar,
- When bike stays for about week, when turning on the ignition fuel pump clicks very fast for around 2-3 sec (fuel evaporates?)
Guys do you have any ideas what could be wrong?
1. Is it something to check in the ignition system except the things I've mentioned?
2. Why my bike needs as much as about 20 miles to start running in a not acceptable, but rideable level?
3. The problem seems to affect all cylinders as I can feel when bike runs on 2 cylinders, 3 and 4.
4. What else can I check?
5. Anyone knows a good garage in the Trowbridge, Bath area?
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have you read the "dyno`d today" thread.....might be worth a go ;)
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My money is on fuelling here.....as a couple have mentioned earlier - check your breather pipe. You say it only started recently and it kinda coincided with you blocking the drain pipe. Sure it's the drain pipe and not the breather?? Also, why did you need to block the drain pipe in the first place?
Make sure both are unblocked and you can blow through them. :)
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have you read the "dyno`d today" thread.....might be worth a go ;)
I would have a go, when my bike is fixed. What's the point of going on dyno, when bike runs like ****?
I thought that dyno it's just for adjusting, tuning, not the fixing, right?
My money is on fuelling here.....as a couple have mentioned earlier - check your breather pipe. You say it only started recently and it kinda coincided with you blocking the drain pipe. Sure it's the drain pipe and not the breather?? Also, why did you need to block the drain pipe in the first place?Make sure both are unblocked and you can blow through them. :)
Breather pipe it's clear. Drain pipe is blocked, because of fuel leak (possibly corroded inside of the tank).
Of course that's the theory. The way I've determined which one it's the breather and which one it's the drain, was just assumption that breather pipe can't leak.
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have you read the "dyno`d today" thread.....might be worth a go ;)
I would have a go, when my bike is fixed. What's the point of going on dyno, when bike runs like ****?
I thought that dyno it's just for adjusting, tuning, not the fixing, right?
My money is on fuelling here.....as a couple have mentioned earlier - check your breather pipe. You say it only started recently and it kinda coincided with you blocking the drain pipe. Sure it's the drain pipe and not the breather?? Also, why did you need to block the drain pipe in the first place?Make sure both are unblocked and you can blow through them. :)
Breather pipe it's clear. Drain pipe is blocked, because of fuel leak (possibly corroded inside of the tank).
Of course that's the theory. The way I've determined which one it's the breather and which one it's the drain, was just assumption that breather pipe can't leak.
hi torque...sorry , i was`nt suggesting a dyno run......just having a play with the needle settings,a stab in the dark i know but might be worth a try
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If adding a bit of choke helps, that really points towards mixture as the problem.
Have you checked the fuel levels in the carbs? It's a slightly fiddly job but might reveal where the fault lies. (You are correct, the few seconds clattering from the fuel pump is normal after the bike's stood for a while as it tops up the levels lost to evaporation.)
What do the plugs look like after a run?
If neither of those ideas bear fruit, it might be time to stick a compression tester on it.
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I'm from around the area you are, May even recognise the bike if the last 3 letters on the plate are RWO...
Unfortunately i'm not too much help on the bike scene though :(
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I'm from around the area you are, May even recognise the bike if the last 3 letters on the plate are RWO...
Unfortunately i'm not too much help on the bike scene though :(
Hey, Yeah I am the the RWO guy also noticed another 2 red FZS600. One of them is the Charlie from Bristol, but did not meet another yet :) .
According to my issue I think I've found the problem:
(http://s21.postimg.org/yao3aojhj/2014_03_01_19_12_51.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jrgy99qcj/full/)
This is raw dump from the carbs.
As a part of analysis I've added isopropanol both to the clean petrol and petrol with water. Isopropanol made the fluid homogeneous, so I think that I will add the 100ml isopropanol per tank, before I will sort my tank.
My theory is that when drain pipe is blocked the water goes into drain pipe, but it does not go outside it stays inside the drain pipe. However the drain pipe is rusted inside of the tank (because petrol can leak to it), so water goes straight to the fuel.
Unfortunately FZS600 engine does not want to run on water.
EDIT: Please do not show that photo to my girlfriend. she will kill me that I've used glass from the kitchen :)
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You should probably get another tank or you'll keep having the same problem
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Or, you could repair it with one of these kits (http://www.frost.co.uk/por15-motorcycle-fuel-tank-repair-kit.html). I just happen to have one in my garage that I bought for my classic car but found I didn't need it. If you're interested then PM me.
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Now the only thing I would like to replace are the ignition coils.
Do you think that it's better to buy used or "china" brand new? [url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Ignition-HT-Coil-Yamaha-FZS600-Fazer-98-03-/190614785844?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2c6186cf34[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Ignition-HT-Coil-Yamaha-FZS600-Fazer-98-03-/190614785844?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2c6186cf34[/url])
I got these that I have been using for about three months now. I noticed a clicking when idling but could not find the point of arc. Yesterday I found it coming through mid point of HT lead on number 3 cylinder. I have not noticed any reduction in performance but keep this in mind if your going to keep these coils on.
Hope you have identified the problem as you show.
Daz
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Had a feeling you were - remove and totally clean the tank?
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Mine is running the same as this - drained my Carbs to fins the same result as yours.
Need to look into my drain on the tank
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Hurray, my bike is running almost properly... after few months, the problem occured to be water in the fuel.
Basically I was not using my bike so often, but after spilling about 300ml of isopropanol and about half tank of ride, bike is running well.
Still had some minor stutters, but finally after around 200 miles done during weekend it's gone.
Conclusions (propably for most of you it's obvious). If you want to make sure if your fuel is bad, just fill glass of petrol straight from carbs or from tank and see if there is water inside.
If you want to replace fuel with new one, remember to drop the petrol from carbs, then from tank, then fill new fuel and drain (from carbs again) about 100ml of fresh fuel. This is to remove the old fuel from fuel filter and rubber hoses.
Of course it does not mean that everything it's alright:
- still looking for the tank, unfortunately missed the ebay auction, there was brand new (used only 4 weeks) tank for 80 quid,
- still bike runs on idle on 3 cylinders, and stutters between 1000-2000RPM. I reckon that it may be problem with idle mixture screw on 3rd cylinder (it's colder than the others), also I don't have tool to adjust that screw without removing carb (it's in really bad place).
All the best.
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I'd been following some of your posts as you've got a similar problem to mine. I did laugh at how small a world it is when the chap who I'd bough this 4 week old petrol tank through eBay said that the other bidder was from Bristol. I thought to myself it could only be you. Thanks for the iso tip.
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I'd been following some of your posts as you've got a similar problem to mine. I did laugh at how small a world it is when the chap who I'd bough this 4 week old petrol tank through eBay said that the other bidder was from Bristol. I thought to myself it could only be you. Thanks for the iso tip.