Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
General => General => Topic started by: Frosties on 02 July 2015, 10:08:26 am
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Hiya fellas,
Looking for some advice on my trusty battleship.
When new, the fork dive on the Tiger ('98 carbs) was described as excessive and still is compared to the Fazer or indeed a modern day adventure style bike like a V Strom thou. This was probably due to the manufacturing era of "these bikes ARE dual purpose". Now whilst I like the fork dive to a degree, mainly because it ensures maximum tyre compression and contact area under a hard panic brake, the dive is excessive and you do get thrown forward a fair degree, not to mention the braking is down on the Fazers ability (110 section tyres, EBC HH pads and braided hoses on both bikes - bur smaller discs on Tiger with additional 40kg weight). Currently over road imperfections it also feels a bit harsh on poor rutted surfaces so wouldn't want to increase this.
Not sure if I have progressives fitted (doubt it) but the oil certainly hasn't been changed in around 30k miles so requires changing soon. The fronts are also non adjustable apart from choice of springs/spacers and oil weight.
The question is - will I gain more braking efficiency if the front is tighter or not. If I won't gain braking power then will leave the springs as is.
Any advice as always much appreciated
Cheers
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[Noggy-esque post alert!] :pokefun :lol
You won't lose braking power with excessive fork dive I don't think. What I think you will have, is more weight transfer to the front, which puts the front tyre under more load, which could be an issue, especially on a poor surface. Suspension is about keeping the tyres in contact with the road. Also, you'll have to brake earlier for corners and give the suspension time to settle before committing with too much dive. I also think the brakes will give you better feel if the suspension is keeping things under control.
I would upgrade, either with fresh/thicker fork oil, and/or better springs, simply because the bike will be much more enjoyable, and somewhat safer to ride than with loads of dive.
Just my thoughts, but always open to learning if I've got it wrong (again :rolleyes :lol ).
[/Noggy-esque post]
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mainly because it ensures maximum tyre compression and contact area under a hard panic brake
The opposite is true. If the load is being taken care of by the forks, the tyre isn't being planted on the road as hard. Less dive = more load on the tyre as the tyre walls will have to do the flexing instead.
If the front is more stable, you will get more confidence.
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I don't know... the force required to compress the suspension has to come from somewhere so I'd say it would have a limited effect on braking - to what degree I have no idea. I don't think it would make a big enough difference in actual braking power, but it may make it feel much better from your perspective. However, I'd expect it to sort of ruin the ride comfort as well...
BBROWN1664 got in there just before me :(
Nick, only just realised that you posted and not noggy... damn good job on the noggy-ness of your post :P
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can excessive fork dive affect braking...............no
you have brake discs of a given size and a maximum amount of hydraulic pressure generated by the master cylinder.
what it will affect is the steering (change of trail/rake) and at max compression the ability to absorb a bump shock.
measure the amount of travel used with a cable tie around the fork, if you are using all the travel then either preload the spring or fit a firmer one until you have @15mm travel left after max compression.
but tbh they're a pig on stilts anyway :rollin
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mainly because it ensures maximum tyre compression and contact area under a hard panic brake
The opposite is true. If the load is being taken care of by the forks, the tyre isn't being planted on the road as hard. Less dive = more load on the tyre as the tyre walls will have to do the flexing instead.
Isn't that a contradiction? (Confused :\ )
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Pure brilliance lads. :lol ..so who's right then, Nick or BBrown ??
[Noggy-esque post alert!] :pokefun :lol
What I think you will have, is more weight transfer to the front, which puts the front tyre under more load,
I would upgrade, either with fresh/thicker fork oil, and/or better springs, simply because the bike will be much more enjoyable, and somewhat safer to ride than with loads of dive.
Just my thoughts, but always open to learning if I've got it wrong (again :rolleyes :lol ).
[/Noggy-esque post]
My thoughts the same re springs and oil :thumbup
However, BBrown says....
mainly because it ensures maximum tyre compression and contact area under a hard panic brake
The opposite is true. If the load is being taken care of by the forks, the tyre isn't being planted on the road as hard. Less dive = more load on the tyre as the tyre walls will have to do the flexing instead.
If the front is more stable, you will get more confidence.
So we have soft front = weight transfer = more front load . Me & Nick :pokefun
Less dive = more load. BB :pokefun
Deade Eye "I don't know... " many thanks for your honesty :lol
For what it's worth, I can outride most bikes through the twisties on the Tiger better than I can on the Fazer - nice wide bars :b but am sure spring and oil change will make it even better....certainly don't trim hedges with it :D
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can excessive fork dive affect braking...............no
you have brake discs of a given size and a maximum amount of hydraulic pressure generated by the master cylinder.
what it will affect is the steering (change of trail/rake) and at max compression the ability to absorb a bump shock.
measure the amount of travel used with a cable tie around the fork, if you are using all the travel then either preload the spring or fit a firmer one until you have @15mm travel left after max compression.
but tbh they're a pig on stilts anyway :rollin
Makes sense fella.....just couldn't get it straight in my head. Tend to do all my main braking before a corner and maybe adjust mid corner with rear brake, weight transfer or throttle so mullers those Fazer Thous in the twisties.
Will check the amount of travel I use.
Pig on stilts :lol :lol . I actually love the look in a [Noggy style] Post apocalyptic, urban survival, cool, ride what you're happy with, everyone's different, you pays your money [End of Nog] way of putting it :lol
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can excessive fork dive affect braking...............no
you have brake discs of a given size and a maximum amount of hydraulic pressure generated by the master cylinder.
what it will affect is the steering (change of trail/rake) and at max compression the ability to absorb a bump shock.
measure the amount of travel used with a cable tie around the fork, if you are using all the travel then either preload the spring or fit a firmer one until you have @15mm travel left after max compression.
but tbh they're a pig on stilts anyway :rollin
Makes sense fella.....just couldn't get it straight in my head. Tend to do all my main braking before a corner and maybe adjust mid corner with rear brake, weight transfer or throttle so mullers those Fazer Thous in the twisties.
You still get your braking done before committing, even with less dive, but with a well-controlled front set up, you can brake later, harder, and flip it in with everything working to it's optimum still. If you brake and get a lot of dive, and then if you have a low rate of rebound damping, the forks will spring out again when the main braking force is removed, so unsettling the bike, too much movement just as you want to turn in. ???
Will check the amount of travel I use.
So let me have another stab at this :rolleyes. Once at full compression, the suspension has no further ability to adjust to keep the tyre on the road, and this is where the tyre risks becoming excessively loaded for the available grip? And I think I get the rake/trail change thing too - compression effectively steepening the steering angle, much like dropping the yokes down the forks, to give quicker turn in. But it still needs more travel available to deal with any bumps etc. So it's a compromise between the two - you need some compression, but it needs to be controlled (damping, spring rate), both in total amount of travel, and rate of travel.
This suspension thing is confusing, but getting the idea that it's about the ability to adjust for different situations, so you can't generalise about one thing or the other. And you can't treat compression damping or too weak springs as an individual thing, but have to look at the whole operation of the various functions of the unit together. This is why I don't mess around with settings myself :lol
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You still get your braking done before committing, even with less dive, but with a well-controlled front set up, you can brake later, harder, and flip it in with everything working to it's optimum still. If you brake and get a lot of dive, and then if you have a low rate of rebound damping, the forks will spring out again when the main braking force is removed, so unsettling the bike, too much movement just as you want to turn in. ???
That makes a lot of sense Nick, must be my riding ability that has been compensating for a soggy front :D . That alone steers me towards progressives when I change the oil :thumbup
So let me have another stab at this :rolleyes . Once at full compression, the suspension has no further ability to adjust to keep the tyre on the road, and this is where the tyre risks becoming excessively loaded for the available grip? Errrrr, totally beyond me that one :'( . And I think I get the rake/trail change thing too (me also) - compression effectively steepening the steering angle, much like dropping the yokes down the forks, to give quicker turn in (yep, got it). But it still needs more travel available to deal with any bumps etc. So it's a compromise between the two - you need some compression, but it needs to be controlled (damping, spring rate), both in total amount of travel, and rate of travel Errrrr, I think so :rolleyes .
This suspension thing is confusing, but getting the idea that it's about the ability to adjust for different situations, so you can't generalise about one thing or the other. And you can't treat compression damping or too weak springs as an individual thing, but have to look at the whole operation of the various functions of the unit together. This is why I don't mess around with settings myself :lol Good call :lol
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You still get your braking done before committing, even with less dive, but with a well-controlled front set up, you can brake later, harder, and flip it in with everything working to it's optimum still. If you brake and get a lot of dive, and then if you have a low rate of rebound damping, the forks will spring out again when the main braking force is removed, so unsettling the bike, too much movement just as you want to turn in. ???
That makes a lot of sense Nick, must be my riding ability that has been compensating for a soggy front :D . That alone steers me towards progressives when I change the oil :thumbup
So let me have another stab at this :rolleyes . Once at full compression, the suspension has no further ability to adjust to keep the tyre on the road, and this is where the tyre risks becoming excessively loaded for the available grip? Errrrr, totally beyond me that one :'( . And I think I get the rake/trail change thing too (me also) - compression effectively steepening the steering angle, much like dropping the yokes down the forks, to give quicker turn in (yep, got it). But it still needs more travel available to deal with any bumps etc. So it's a compromise between the two - you need some compression, but it needs to be controlled (damping, spring rate), both in total amount of travel, and rate of travel Errrrr, I think so :rolleyes .
This suspension thing is confusing, but getting the idea that it's about the ability to adjust for different situations, so you can't generalise about one thing or the other. And you can't treat compression damping or too weak springs as an individual thing, but have to look at the whole operation of the various functions of the unit together. This is why I don't mess around with settings myself :lol Good call :lol
Glad you agree, but I have been known to be wrong ya know :eek
Funny how for years and years, I always just rode to my own (sometimes beyond :lol ) limitations, and only bothered with the suzzies if they were obviously shot. This one has more serious mods in that department than I've ever had before, so now it's interesting to me to know why it works better, even if I'm not a good enough rider to explore it's limits. It's quite possible that if I gave it to someone who really knew what they were doing, it could be better still, but it still handles far and away better than anything I've had in a long while.
Hmmm...... :eek I have become Noggy :eek :rollin
And glad to hear you're a brilliant rider Frosties, someday we'll have to get together and you can show me how it's done - maybe in return, I can give you a little topiary lesson; you'd like that, wouldn't you? :lol
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I had one of these ,and they are bouncy on the front :lol
I bought a kit from Jack Lilley Triumph[/size] I think which had up rated springs some preload spacers to sit on top of the springs and heavy fork oil [/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]But I don't think they still stock it now [/color]
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You still get your braking done before committing, even with less dive, but with a well-controlled front set up, you can brake later, harder, and flip it in with everything working to it's optimum still. If you brake and get a lot of dive, and then if you have a low rate of rebound damping, the forks will spring out again when the main braking force is removed, so unsettling the bike, too much movement just as you want to turn in. ???
That makes a lot of sense Nick, must be my riding ability that has been compensating for a soggy front :D . That alone steers me towards progressives when I change the oil :thumbup
So let me have another stab at this :rolleyes . Once at full compression, the suspension has no further ability to adjust to keep the tyre on the road, and this is where the tyre risks becoming excessively loaded for the available grip? Errrrr, totally beyond me that one :'( . And I think I get the rake/trail change thing too (me also) - compression effectively steepening the steering angle, much like dropping the yokes down the forks, to give quicker turn in (yep, got it). But it still needs more travel available to deal with any bumps etc. So it's a compromise between the two - you need some compression, but it needs to be controlled (damping, spring rate), both in total amount of travel, and rate of travel Errrrr, I think so :rolleyes .
This suspension thing is confusing, but getting the idea that it's about the ability to adjust for different situations, so you can't generalise about one thing or the other. And you can't treat compression damping or too weak springs as an individual thing, but have to look at the whole operation of the various functions of the unit together. This is why I don't mess around with settings myself :lol Good call :lol
Glad you agree, but I have been known to be wrong ya know :eek
Funny how for years and years, I always just rode to my own (sometimes beyond :lol ) limitations, and only bothered with the suzzies if they were obviously shot (also guilty as sin on all my bikes). This one has more serious mods in that department than I've ever had before, so now it's interesting to me to know why it works better, even if I'm not a good enough rider to explore it's limits (Noggy is :lol ). It's quite possible that if I gave it to someone who really knew what they were doing, it could be better still, but it still handles far and away better than anything I've had in a long while. If you're happy with it then stick with it Nick.
Hmmm...... :eek I have become Noggy :eek :rollin
And glad to hear you're a brilliant rider Frosties, someday we'll have to get together and you can show me how it's done - maybe in return, I can give you a little topiary lesson; you'd like that, wouldn't you? :lol
You're not that far away from Wokingham Nick so yeah, would be up for a ride out one day.......once I've sorted the front out - can't have you winning. As for topiary lessons.....would only happen if I followed your line :pokefun
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I had one of these ,and they are bouncy on the front :lol
I bought a kit from Jack Lilley Triumph I think which had up rated springs some preload spacers to sit on top of the springs and heavy fork oil
But I don't think they still stock it now
Bouncy front is one way of describing it.......
I think when they named the bike they were thinking of one of these :lol
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LATE ENTRY:: :D
More weight over the front wheel resulting from the nose dive (forks compressing) helps the bike slow quicker.
Does your front often bottom out? Back wheel feel like it's leaving the road, skipping sideways? If yes to either then compression is probably too soft.
But as you met ion it feels harsh over poor rutted ground (I presume you're still talking about the front) this is indication of compression too hard. Oh a contradiction.
Since you have no adjustment capability (does this include preload) I would start at the cheaper option of renewing the fork oil as this alone should give a smoother more controlled feel to the springs. Perhaps as many suggest use the next higher grade.
Also when riding give this a go...........DON'T PANIC :eek
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LATE ENTRY:: (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/cheesy.gif) Better late than never fella :thumbup
More weight over the front wheel resulting from the nose dive (forks compressing) helps the bike slow quicker. Ohh FFS....that's confused me now and Nick's going to relapse rethinking his hard work getting his head around this :lol
Does your front often bottom out? Never. Back wheel feel like it's leaving the road, skipping sideways? Never - rider in total control :D If yes to either then compression is probably too soft.
But as you met ion it feels harsh over poor rutted ground (I presume you're still talking about the front) Yup this is indication of compression too hard. Oh a contradiction. Errr yeah........i'm totally head fecked now :wall
Since you have no adjustment capability (does this include preload) None, Zip, Nada I would start at the cheaper option of renewing the fork oil as this alone should give a smoother more controlled feel to the springs. Perhaps as many suggest use the next higher grade. Seen as i'm now confused I will do this as being the cheaper option and chuck 15w in :rolleyes But if that oil change stiffens the front then I'm guessing less weight over the front which from above means I'm going to get reduced braking :groan
Also when riding give this a go...........DON'T PANIC (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/shocked.gif)
I don't normally panic, but commute 50 odd miles from Wokingham to London every day and have to deal with those feckin cyclists that just pop out of traffic all over the place - all of them..TW@! :grumble . Its the only time I panic brake and grab a handful and I do look for the bastards all the time......maybe I should slap some dodgy plates, save my brake wear and gradually reduce their numbers :angel
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LATE ENTRY:: :D
More weight over the front wheel resulting from the nose dive (forks compressing) helps the bike slow quicker.
Does your front often bottom out? Back wheel feel like it's leaving the road, skipping sideways? If yes to either then compression is probably too soft.
But couldn't this also be due to lack of rebound damping on the rear shock? (I'll have Frosties' head exploding before I'm through here :b )
But as you met ion it feels harsh over poor rutted ground (I presume you're still talking about the front) this is indication of compression too hard. Oh a contradiction.
Yeah leave out the contradictions will ya, ya goat shagger :lol
Also when riding give this a go...........DON'T PANIC :eek
Yeah, hospital food ain't that bad these days, and hedges are soft :D
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My main advise is to renew the oil working on the basis that over time it most probably has lost its full efficiency. So to replace with the original spec 10w should in theory return damping to its original. Perhaps by slowing or smoothing the dive without reducing it. Going 15w could compensate any wear in the springs without going straight to the next problem of what rating spring should I go for. Which to me sounds like a minefield of opinions. Also since you found it springy when you first got it 15w may have helped then. I think if it does end up feeling too firm you might get away with taking a little out of each stanchion (how say others on this)
I have two bottles of unopened 10w oil which I got on the panic of my weight making the front jumpy but as yet haven't used it due to this argument of putting 15w in. I should be a real candidate for the heavier oil but I rarely bottom out, if indeed I actually have and I improved things by lowering the preload from hardest setting.
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LATE ENTRY:: :D
More weight over the front wheel resulting from the nose dive (forks compressing) helps the bike slow quicker.
Does your front often bottom out? Back wheel feel like it's leaving the road, skipping sideways? If yes to either then compression is probably too soft.
But couldn't this also be due to lack of rebound damping on the rear shock? (I'll have Frosties' head exploding before I'm through here :b )
Absolutely but that just adds to confusion. Question answered by dive essentially being good for breaking.
But as you met ion it feels harsh over poor rutted ground (I presume you're still talking about the front) this is indication of compression too hard. Oh a contradiction.
Yeah leave out the contradictions will ya, ya goat shagger :lol
who let that one out the bag. More lover than shagger
Also when riding give this a go...........DON'T PANIC :eek
Yeah, hospital food ain't that bad these days, and hedges are soft :D
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Nick did you see my forks dive on entry to that one bend,,oh so did yours ,oh and also PieEaters ,a hell of a lot of late braking going on there :)
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LATE ENTRY:: :D
More weight over the front wheel resulting from the nose dive (forks compressing) helps the bike slow quicker.
Does your front often bottom out? Back wheel feel like it's leaving the road, skipping sideways? If yes to either then compression is probably too soft.
But couldn't this also be due to lack of rebound damping on the rear shock? (I'll have Frosties' head exploding before I'm through here :b )
But as you met ion it feels harsh over poor rutted ground (I presume you're still talking about the front) this is indication of compression too hard. Oh a contradiction.
Yeah leave out the contradictions will ya, ya goat shagger :lol
Also when riding give this a go...........DON'T PANIC :eek
Yeah, hospital food ain't that bad these days, and hedges are soft :D
Ahaaaaaa - nope, no way Nick. Got an all singing/dancing 2 way upgraded Nitron rear shock fitted so :2fingers
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My main advise is to renew the oil working on the basis that over time it most probably has lost its full efficiency. So to replace with the original spec 10w should in theory return damping to its original. Perhaps by slowing or smoothing the dive without reducing it. Going 15w could compensate any wear in the springs without going straight to the next problem of what rating spring should I go for. Which to me sounds like a minefield of opinions. Also since you found it springy when you first got it 15w may have helped then. I think if it does end up feeling too firm you might get away with taking a little out of each stanchion (how say others on this)
I have two bottles of unopened 10w oil which I got on the panic of my weight making the front jumpy but as yet haven't used it due to this argument of putting 15w in. I should be a real candidate for the heavier oil but I rarely bottom out, if indeed I actually have and I improved things by lowering the preload from hardest setting.
Ok, even though this will reduce the weight transfer over the front i'm going fill with fresh 10w. Then if I need more i'm going to stick with original springs but add some plastic conduit spacers in starting with 2 inch and working from there.
How does this sound as a way forward?
Orrrrrrrrrrrr, I could see if a certain someone wants to swap his Gen1 for it :D Nick knows which one...........and it's NOT yellow!
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Nick did you see my forks dive on entry to that one bend,,oh so did yours ,oh and also PieEaters ,a hell of a lot of late braking going on there :)
:lol :lol
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Nick did you see my forks dive on entry to that one bend,,oh so did yours ,oh and also PieEaters ,a hell of a lot of late braking going on there :)
No, no, not mine, I don't go fast enough, I'm not a very good rider, can't risk it, don't like speeding, never do it. I was just relieved we took it nice n easy all day, just a bimble in the countryside :D
Don't believe me? My bike is red. See, impossible ;)
Don't be daft Bill, we're talking about excessive dive.
Ahaaaaaa - nope, no way Nick. Got an all singing/dancing 2 way upgraded Nitron rear shock fitted so :2fingers
Cartridge emulators - that's the way to go. Keeps it all under control. K-Tech, plus R6 shock :nana :lol
Orrrrrrrrrrrr, I could see if a certain someone wants to swap his Gen1 for it :D Nick knows which one...........and it's yellow!
No such bike exists ;)
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Darrah!!!!!.......cheeky old foccers :grumble
I do ask for it though :\
All ill say is........the following million words................
My bike is the opposite with front springs that are too hard and im not able to use the full potential travel......my brakes feel wooden as a result......i still stop and ok part of it may be my interpretation and the extra weight but it isnt like my 600 used to stop.......fiddling with suspension, when the compression was too low it made the brakes feel even more shit.
Im now running on max compression and have dropped my yokes a crazy amount probably 25-30mm to get more weight on the front which has made it both corner better and make the brakes seem better too......im still not getting full travel......"seems" is always ambiguous.
Im no physicist but i always thought that more transferred weight on the front equaled stronger braking......and having a soft spring would allow more transfer of that weight downwards towards the wheel and tarmac as oppose to having for example absolutely no springs whereby allot of the energy would be transferred forward.....but not so much downward....but that is noggy science which is completely unreliable......because energy always transfers from one form to another so if some is still going forward and some going downwards then surely making more go downwards is a better thing......ok the brakes are taking off forward energy....but surely the suspension is also taking off forward energy....after all suspension isnt friction free....surely the more things taking off energy equals less energy going forward and that means stopping sooner.
Oh foc im confused :o :\ :o :\ :o
:lurk
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Darrah!!!!!.......cheeky old foccers :grumble What's a Darrah when it's at home ?
I do ask for it though :\ You weren't around so it was open season :lol
Im no physicist but i always thought that more transferred weight on the front equaled stronger braking......and having a soft spring would allow more transfer of that weight downwards towards the wheel and tarmac as oppose to having for example absolutely no springs whereby allot of the energy would be transferred forward.....but not so much downward....but that is noggy science which is completely unreliable......because energy always transfers from one form to another so if some is still going forward and some going downwards then surely making more go downwards is a better thing......ok the brakes are taking off forward energy....but surely the suspension is also taking off forward energy....after all suspension isnt friction free....surely the more things taking off energy equals less energy going forward and that means stopping sooner.
Oh foc im confused :o :\ :o :\ :o
:lurk
To be honest Noggy, your last chapter essentially matches what Midden said (just with a lot more words :pokefun) and I understand this concept - total sense. Hence me saying if I change the oil this will firm up the front and therefore reduce my braking .........I think :o
Any advice on my last idea of changing oil and then trying spacers?
Nick did you see my forks dive on entry to that one bend,,oh so did yours ,oh and also PieEaters ,a hell of a lot of late braking going on there :)
Ahaaaaaa - nope, no way Nick. Got an all singing/dancing 2 way upgraded Nitron rear shock fitted so :2fingers
Cartridge emulators - that's the way to go. Keeps it all under control. K-Tech, plus R6 shock :nana :lol Ahhh ok, slap an R6 shock on me Tiger - Righto :lol
Orrrrrrrrrrrr, I could see if a certain someone wants to swap his Gen1 for it :D Nick knows which one...........and it's yellow!
No such bike exists ;)
:'( :'( :'( :'(
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I reckon that in terms of actual full braking performance, it's negligible between the two. If anything, I reckon the "response time" is the major difference
With stiff suspension, you are instantly planting the force on the tyre and it could be potentially hazardous if the force is applied too quickly. With soft suspension, you are using up suspension travel before you get effective braking - the mass of the bike is trying to outrun the front wheel and so the nose dives compressing the suspension. Once the suspension is compressed you are getting full braking performance acting on the entirety of the bikes momentum.
Disclaimer as always that I have no idea what shit I'm chatting about... just like noggy...
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Ahhh ok, slap an R6 shock on me Tiger - Righto :lol
You'll need more than that to make it handle right. How about slap an R6 on your driveway :lol
By the way, your debt in copyright fees is soaring - steals my painting, steals my photos, and has the nerve to talk about fecking Triumphs on here! I thought you were on a Triumph forum, can't they help? :rolleyes
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For what it's worth.....worthless then ;) .....i dont reckon that changing oil alone will make enough of a difference......it sounds far more of an issue than just a small tweak like oil being the remedy.......or spacers for that matter....i mean here you are with an adventure bike that is blessed with long travel suspension and so is good on bumps and absorbing impact......so using a spacer is taking away that advantage.
Depends what you prioritise.....absorption, braking, handling......either way i think improving 1 will adversely affect another.
I think you're like me but in the opposite direction and perhaps need some different springs.....for what it is worth ill be going with softer springs and ill be going with linear matched to my weight and riding style....it is controversial but i dont have pillion pegs so will never take pillion, i dont do heavy touring, just hooning around really so thats quite specific requirements which i feel linear springs can match to.
I might then start adjusting oils...but only as a complement to the main solution.
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With stiff suspension, you are instantly planting the force on the tyre and it could be potentially hazardous if the force is applied too quickly.
Disclaimer as always that I have no idea what shit I'm chatting about... just like noggy...
Noggy - you're getting hammered, must be a long standing joke I've missed :lol
Good point fella re grabbing too quick but have been used to fast 2 stage braking for a fair amount of time. 1. Half pressure to transfer weight & compress tyre for increased contact area 2. Then go for it with a handful. I can also cadence brake up to about 30-35mph max. Never had an ABS bike but if I had it then I could address the other issues raised without affecting the braking.
Ahhh ok, slap an R6 shock on me Tiger - Righto :lol
You'll need more than that to make it handle right. How about slap an R6 on your driveway :lol
By the way, your debt in copyright fees is soaring - steals my painting, steals my photos, and has the nerve to talk about fecking Triumphs on here! I thought you were on a Triumph forum, can't they help? :rolleyes
I've eaten loads of R6's in a straight drag with the Fazer and lost the equivalent in the twisties with the Tiger = not a bike I hanker after.
Errrr re the copyright fees........take them as compliments - cracking picture of a Tiger and was (you bastard) a beautiful Gen1 :D
As for the Triumph forum/s, it's/they're not a patch on this site for sensible help about bikes. Unless you've got an Explorer/Bonnie and talk bollox about Ewan and Charlie ego planned trips or the retro scene the advice is all dealer referrals. Useless in the past and haven't posted this on any of those sites.
Depends what you prioritise.....absorption, braking, handling......either way i think improving 1 will adversely affect another.
I think you're like me (only slimmer) but in the opposite direction and perhaps need some different springs.
I might then start adjusting oils...but only as a complement to the main solution.
All valid points Noggy especially working out my priority of absorption, braking, handling. Need to start somewhere so will change oil as it's 30k miles old and overdue and see if it's an improved mix of abilities but with less dive. Can only take it from there..........not sure which way yet though.
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With stiff suspension, you are instantly planting the force on the tyre and it could be potentially hazardous if the force is applied too quickly. With soft suspension, you are using up suspension travel before you get effective braking - the mass of the bike is trying to outrun the front wheel and so the nose dives compressing the suspension. Once the suspension is compressed you are getting full braking performance acting on the entirety of the bikes momentum.
With stiff front suspension or no front suspension the forces from body weight would be pushing the bars forward, past/over the top of the wheel instead of down on to the wheel. Noggy seems to compensate his stiff forks by lowering the front (raising stanchions) thus directing his weight on to the wheel before breaking. Safe or truly effective who really knows )bet the wrists suffer though).
I presume the addition of spacers/washers will be the same as adjusting preload so should in theory change the ride one way or the other. Definitely worth trying with obvious caution.
another option would be if possible to swap the forks for some from a later model tiger. Price permitting. I read somewhere the mistake triumph made on the earlier tigers was trying to make it dual purpose with more enthasis on off road, which it never really cut the mustard. On later models though they steered away from the off road side to make it more road friendly.
Disclaimer as always that I have no idea what shit I'm chatting about... just like noggy...
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Just a few observations, forgetting about ride quality as the subject is heavy braking. Too soft is not ideal, too hard is ok except it don't leave anything for bump absorbtion. 2 stage braking is good for both situations, i agree some weight transfer is good but think weight is naturally going to the front anyway, racers brake hard but they squeeze the brake not slam it on. If fork dive was such a good thing then non telescopic front fork bikes ( for example some bmw's ) would not have such stable/safe braking, bmw seem to be using more conventional teles on their bikes now but most likely for cost/marketing reasons rather than thinking them inferior. I would go for 15wt oil with a couple of washers in each side, the springs would have to be very soft to get anything like a 2'' spacer in. If you use 10wt you have the satisfaction of having nice fresh oil but the end result is going to be pretty much the same. I won't go into oil level as i don't want the oil level police's comments.
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can excessive fork dive affect braking...............no
you have brake discs of a given size and a maximum amount of hydraulic pressure generated by the master cylinder.
what it will affect is the steering (change of trail/rake) and at max compression the ability to absorb a bump shock.
measure the amount of travel used with a cable tie around the fork, if you are using all the travel then either preload the spring or fit a firmer one until you have @15mm travel left after max compression.
but tbh they're a pig on stilts anyway :rollin
Subtle as ever, but true :lol
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Just a few observations, forgetting about ride quality as the subject is heavy braking. Too soft is not ideal, too hard is ok except it don't leave anything for bump absorbtion. 2 stage braking is good for both situations, i agree some weight transfer is good but think weight is naturally going to the front anyway, racers brake hard but they squeeze the brake not slam it on. If fork dive was such a good thing then non telescopic front fork bikes ( for example some bmw's ) would not have such stable/safe braking, bmw seem to be using more conventional teles on their bikes now but most likely for cost/marketing reasons rather than thinking them inferior. I would go for 15wt oil with a couple of washers in each side, the springs would have to be very soft to get anything like a 2'' spacer in. If you use 10wt you have the satisfaction of having nice fresh oil but the end result is going to be pretty much the same. I won't go into oil level as i don't want the oil level police's comments.
Cheers Max - more very good valid points. Especially the 15wt which was my thinking without changing the springs (about £100 for progressives).
Final decision lads :lol I'm going with 15wt oil, no spacers and then take it from there. It's got to be an improvement because when new it was described as having "excessive dive". Will let you all know how I get on.
Cheers for all the advice......and the laughs.
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Just a few observations, forgetting about ride quality as the subject is heavy braking. Too soft is not ideal, too hard is ok except it don't leave anything for bump absorbtion. 2 stage braking is good for both situations, i agree some weight transfer is good but think weight is naturally going to the front anyway, racers brake hard but they squeeze the brake not slam it on. If fork dive was such a good thing then non telescopic front fork bikes ( for example some bmw's ) would not have such stable/safe braking, bmw seem to be using more conventional teles on their bikes now but most likely for cost/marketing reasons rather than thinking them inferior. I would go for 15wt oil with a couple of washers in each side, the springs would have to be very soft to get anything like a 2'' spacer in. If you use 10wt you have the satisfaction of having nice fresh oil but the end result is going to be pretty much the same. I won't go into oil level as i don't want the oil level police's comments.
Cheers Max - more very good valid points. Especially the 15wt which was my thinking without changing the springs (about £100 for progressives).
Final decision lads :lol I'm going with 15wt oil, no spacers and then take it from there. It's got to be an improvement because when new it was described as having "excessive dive". Will let you all know how I get on.
Cheers for all the advice......and the laughs.
Excessive dive is usually a symptom of too light springs mate. Check the stock rate, then use a calculator to work out what you roughly need (there's one on race tech's site which is pretty good)
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Frosties' next transport
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b550/nicknicklxs/zebedee-159x300_zpsym9jnmvo.png) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/nicknicklxs/media/zebedee-159x300_zpsym9jnmvo.png.html)
:lol
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if your not happy with your bike--get rid of it--simples. :pc
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If excessive dive wasn't an issue then 'anti dive' systems would never have been created!
It's not just braking the suspension affects, it makes a massive difference to corner handling too, it's only at major lean angles where frame/swingarm flex comes into play on that front!
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Spanish football is full of divers. :pc
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If excessive dive wasn't an issue then 'anti dive' systems would never have been created!
It's not just braking the suspension affects, it makes a massive difference to corner handling too, it's only at major lean angles where frame/swingarm flex comes into play on that front!
Hopefully the oil change and weight upgrade to 15wt will improve matters Stiggy :thumbup
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if your not happy with your bike--get rid of it--simples. :pc
I have a cunning plan...........and it's blue :D
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Frosties' next transport
([url]http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b550/nicknicklxs/zebedee-159x300_zpsym9jnmvo.png[/url]) ([url]http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/nicknicklxs/media/zebedee-159x300_zpsym9jnmvo.png.html[/url])
:lol
Not any more Nick :finger
Update - Drained the existing oil which stank to high heaven and was probably the original '98 stuff. Left them overnight to drain then filled with 15wt oil. Massive improvement to what I had before with even better, sharper handling/cornering.. The bike still dives more than the Fazer which I suppose is to be expected from the style of bike. Going to see how I get on and maybe add a spacer to increase the spring tension as a taster before going straight to progressives.
Still don't think I got a definitive answer to the effect on braking but it was an interesting thread :lol .
I think the braking has improved but it may be that I now notice the braking more than I do the fork dive.