Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: 74eldiablo on 16 October 2018, 08:42:47 am
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Yesterday i took delivery of a micron shorty slip on with link pipe, having took off the original silencer i couldnt beleive how much weight was in that thing :eek a simple test in hands was unbeleivable, so for people who still have the std can on ditch it and get another the weight savings are definately worth it.
I think the centre stand is also coming off as apart from oiling the chain it's just a big chunk off metal and reducing the weight even by a kilo or two will help with the bikes handling
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Im thinking of which Winter upgrades to do this year and new exhaust is certainly in my top 3. Trouble is i would want a new stainless system up to the header and it gets pricey considering it's an old bike.
Im also in 2 minds about the sound. My standard exhaust is nice and quiet when im warming up in the mornings (respect for the neighbours is a two way street) but i would love to hear a bit more oomph going through tunnels, which the standard exhaust just does not provide.
What did you get? How much did you pay and is it excessively noisy?
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Would the majority of Fazer owners be that concerned about shaving off weight though?.
I'd have thought that'd be more of an issue to owners of the higher powered sports orientated machines.
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The centre stand is really handy for maintenance and you won't feel any difference by removing the weight of it. You'd be get more benefit by ensuring your tyres are at the correct pressure, your brakes are clean and aren't dragging, your air filter is clean and your chain is lubed and at the right tension. Basic stuff like that. Minor weight savings won't make any difference
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The centre stand is really handy for maintenance and you won't feel any difference by removing the weight of it. You'd be get more benefit by ensuring your tyres are at the correct pressure, your brakes are clean and aren't dragging, your air filter is clean and your chain is lubed and at the right tension. Basic stuff like that. Minor weight savings won't make any difference
In my case, when the rider lost 18kg's, the bike seemed to handle, stop and go a bit better - but I kept the centre stand :rollin
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I've had my bike on the Dyno machine about 3 times since i've had it, and the wizard mechanic who was working on my bike said you would never really get a better performing exhaust than the original.
I agree it's too lumpy and i couldn't stand the whiny gearbox noise to the bike so i changed it straight away anyway, but the Dyno did show up imperfections with new slip on end cans (i have a couple) and there's certainly no extra power boost in any way, even if it sounds and feels like it.
They are just a cosmetic addition to the bike that look and sound better.
I would also recommend a K&N air filter if you haven't' already got one, then do a carb balance, regardless if people say you need one or not, as it does smooth things out.
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:agree
K&N, and a carb balance (especially if you have changed the end can) really does make things smoother through the rev range.
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I agree it's too lumpy and i couldn't stand the whiny gearbox noise to the bike so i changed it straight away anyway
Do they drown out that foccin great clunk going from first into second also?. If so I'm in :D .
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Do they drown out that foccin great clunk going from first into second also?. If so I'm in :D .
Check your chain adjustment. The FZS is very partial to having it done right. Adjusted correctly theres barely any clunk.
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:agree
My Fazer FZS600 hardly makes
any noise, or clunk going from 1st to 2nd, but, I do get a clunk when going into first from neutral, especially when going into fist with a cold lump, I find slightly easing the bike forward with my tootsies helps to alleviate this.
Chain tension is important, this is one of the reasons you need a centre stand, spin the rear wheel by hand checking the chain tension on the lower chain run directly under the black swinging arm chain guide that is on the top at the front of swinging arm, and make sure you have 1.5 inchs of movement pushing the chain up without excessive force. I understand this is the accepted measurement for a 2003 FZS600 Foxeye.
See photo of manual.
Although I have read somewhere that the chain adjustment should be made with the motorcycle on the side stand, so that some/most of the bikes weight is on the suspension.
I have always done mine on the centre as its easier to adjust it with the rear wheel off the ground.
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:agree
My Fazer FZS600 hardly makes
any noise, or clunk going from 1st to 2nd, but, I do get a clunk when going into first from neutral, especially when going into fist with a cold lump, I find slightly easing the bike forward with my tootsies helps to alleviate this.
Chain tension is important, this is one of the reasons you need a centre stand, spin the rear wheel by hand checking the chain tension on the lower chain run directly under the black swinging arm chain guide that is on the top at the front of swinging arm, and make sure you have 1.5 inchs of movement pushing the chain up without excessive force. I understand this is the accepted measurement for a 2003 FZS600 Foxeye.
See photo of manual.
Although I have read somewhere that the chain adjustment should be made with the motorcycle on the side stand, so that some/most of the bikes weight is on the suspension.
I have always done mine on the centre as its easier to adjust it with the rear wheel off the ground.
Would’ve thought that not only would it be awkward adjusting it on the side stand, but the tension would be too tight as well?
Even more so if you added a passenger and luggage, i reckon that adjusting it whilst on the centre stand allows for these differences?
I don’t know all this for certain, as it’s never even crossed my mind to adjust the chain on the sidestand before, but i think it makes sense.
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The manual says to keep both wheels on the ground. I think the chain gets tighter when the bike is on both wheels compared to when it's on the centre stand so if you adjust the slack to the specified amount while it's on the centre stand, when you put it back down onto two wheels the chain will tighten up so it will be tighter than spec whereas if you tighten it to spec on the side stand that's where it stays. I've always adjusted it on the side stand anyway
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:agree
My Fazer FZS600 hardly makes
any noise, or clunk going from 1st to 2nd, but, I do get a clunk when going into first from neutral, especially when going into fist with a cold lump, I find slightly easing the bike forward with my tootsies helps to alleviate this.
Chain tension is important, this is one of the reasons you need a centre stand, spin the rear wheel by hand checking the chain tension on the lower chain run directly under the black swinging arm chain guide that is on the top at the front of swinging arm, and make sure you have 1.5 inchs of movement pushing the chain up without excessive force. I understand this is the accepted measurement for a 2003 FZS600 Foxeye.
See photo of manual.
Although I have read somewhere that the chain adjustment should be made with the motorcycle on the side stand, so that some/most of the bikes weight is on the suspension.
I have always done mine on the centre as its easier to adjust it with the rear wheel off the ground.
That clunk when you knock it down from neutral into first can also be caused by worn cush drive rubbers in the rear wheel. As the rubber wears it creates a bit of free play between the rear sprocket carrier and the wheel and you feel it as a clunk. You rocking the bike forward might be taking up the gap. You can check if there's any play by grabbing the rear sprocket and rotating it clockwise and anti clockwise.
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:agree
My Fazer FZS600 hardly makes
any noise, or clunk going from 1st to 2nd, but, I do get a clunk when going into first from neutral, especially when going into fist with a cold lump, I find slightly easing the bike forward with my tootsies helps to alleviate this.
Chain tension is important, this is one of the reasons you need a centre stand, spin the rear wheel by hand checking the chain tension on the lower chain run directly under the black swinging arm chain guide that is on the top at the front of swinging arm, and make sure you have 1.5 inchs of movement pushing the chain up without excessive force. I understand this is the accepted measurement for a 2003 FZS600 Foxeye.
See photo of manual.
Although I have read somewhere that the chain adjustment should be made with the motorcycle on the side stand, so that some/most of the bikes weight is on the suspension.
I have always done mine on the centre as its easier to adjust it with the rear wheel off the ground.
That clunk when you knock it down from neutral into first can also be caused by worn cush drive rubbers in the rear wheel. As the rubber wears it creates a bit of free play between the rear sprocket carrier and the wheel and you feel it as a clunk. You rocking the bike forward might be taking up the gap. You can check if there's any play by grabbing the rear sprocket and rotating it clockwise and anti clockwise.
My bike has always done it, even when i put new cush drive rubbers in the wheel.
It's just a quirk of the bike, and i do the same as Tommy, just roll the bike forward a bit when changing down and it is nowhere near as harsh or noisy.
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yeah mine does it too. I think it's a Yamaha thing :lol
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Just done some measuring....
On centre stand- 30mm chain movement at the rubber thingy.
On side stand-26mm chain movement at the same place.
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Just been out for a ride around petrol fill up and it's changing gear silently now :rolleyes .
Maybe got enough slack now.
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If there's a slight amount of play in the chain when the swinging arm is parallel to the ground, then there'll be plenty of free movement in any other position as it's only going to get slacker whether weight is added or removed.
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If there's a slight amount of play in the chain when the swinging arm is parallel to t4he ground, then there'll be plenty of free movement in any other position as it's only going to get slacker whether weight is added or removed.
Yeah, what he said. :lol
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Think about it why does the chain need slack in the first place? It’s because you have to allow for changes in chain tension due to the up and down movement of the swing arm due to the suspension compressing and extending. The position of the front sprocket is fixed rigid to the engine and the engine is bolted into the frame so the position of the front sprocket can’t move up or down but the rear sprocket is part of the swing arm assembly so the position of the rear sprocket changes, it has to move up and down relative to the front sprocket when the swing arm moves up and down. If you look at picture 1
(http://i68.tinypic.com/22jmv4.png)
Imagine that picture 1 is when both wheels are on the ground the distance on side A is equal to the distance on B. In picture 2 say you hit a bump as you're riding and the suspension compresses and the swing arm pivots up around it’s pivot point so the rear sprocket pivots up relative to the front sprocket. This means the distance on side A will get shorter and side B will get longer so the tension on side A will be less and the tension on side B will be greater. That's why you need slack in the chain.
In picture 3 when you put the bike on the centre stand you’re doing the opposite, you’re taking the weight off the rear suspension so the suspension extends and the swing arm pivots down so side A would get longer and side B would get shorter creating more tension on side A and more slack on side B. That means if you adjust the chain to have 30mm slack on side B when the bike is on the centre stand, when you put it back down onto it’s wheels and the suspension compresses and the swing arm pivots up side B will tighten up and you’ll have less than 30mm slack. YamFazFan proved that’s what happens with his measurements. On the centre stand he measured 30mm slack. When he put the bike on both wheels he measured 26mm because the weight of the bike caused the suspension to compress and the swing arm to pivot up slightly. The slack side will tighten even more when you sit on the bike because you’re compressing the suspension more and that’s causing the swing arm to pivot up more. It'll tighten more if you have a pillion. And it'll tighten more when you hit a bump in the road.
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That's a great post. Explains it so clearly.
When I first measured I found 6mm difference, then on second measuring, having wheeled it about a bit, found 4mm difference. So I'd say the average is 5mm between being on centre stand/side stand.
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You realize we're talking about 4mm difference here. :lol
I would personally guarantee that if every foccer was to show how they do their own chain measuring techniques the results would have a vast difference among every bike.
They'll either be too tight, too slack, misaligned, chain too dry, or not lubed correctly on every link, etc.
What i've noticed over the years is that if a chain is misaligned, too tight, or too slack then your hearing should suss it out first.
Too slack and the chain will slap about, too tight and it will just be noisy plus you'll feel it grinding through your left foot peg.
If the chain is misaligned then a knocking/rotational grinding will be felt and heard as well.
When adjusting the chain, once the wheel nut is properly tightened up a simple spin of the wheel (on the centre stand of course) can reveal all of these traits quite easily.
If all is well then the chain will purr when the wheel is spun forwards or backwards, to the point that you just know that it's right.
There is a large amount of common sense involved here, as well as what is advised in the manual.
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Think about it why does the chain need slack in the first place? It’s because you have to allow for changes in chain tension due to the up and down movement of the swing arm due to the suspension compressing and extending. The position of the front sprocket is fixed rigid to the engine and the engine is bolted into the frame so the position of the front sprocket can’t move up or down but the rear sprocket is part of the swing arm assembly so the position of the rear sprocket changes, it has to move up and down relative to the front sprocket when the swing arm moves up and down. If you look at picture 1
([url]http://i68.tinypic.com/22jmv4.png[/url])
Imagine that picture 1 is when both wheels are on the ground the distance on side A is equal to the distance on B. In picture 2 say you hit a bump as you're riding and the suspension compresses and the swing arm pivots up around it’s pivot point so the rear sprocket pivots up relative to the front sprocket. This means the distance on side A will get shorter and side B will get longer so the tension on side A will be less and the tension on side B will be greater. That's why you need slack in the chain.
In picture 3 when you put the bike on the centre stand you’re doing the opposite, you’re taking the weight off the rear suspension so the suspension extends and the swing arm pivots down so side A would get longer and side B would get shorter creating more tension on side A and more slack on side B. That means if you adjust the chain to have 30mm slack on side B when the bike is on the centre stand, when you put it back down onto it’s wheels and the suspension compresses and the swing arm pivots up side B will tighten up and you’ll have less than 30mm slack. YamFazFan proved that’s what happens with his measurements. On the centre stand he measured 30mm slack. When he put the bike on both wheels he measured 26mm because the weight of the bike caused the suspension to compress and the swing arm to pivot up slightly. The slack side will tighten even more when you sit on the bike because you’re compressing the suspension more and that’s causing the swing arm to pivot up more. It'll tighten more if you have a pillion. And it'll tighten more when you hit a bump in the road.
Pictures 2 & 3 are the same, just the reverse of each other.
I think irrespective of how you check your chain slack, whether on centre or side stand, once you know what feels right you'll know what to do next time anyway.
I don't even measure any more, i started using the "Unfazed" way by pushing the chain up until it just hits the chain slide. It seems to be adequate enough.
And don't forget the manual suggests 30-45mm play on my bike so it's not that critical. It's the sound effects that play more an important role for me.
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Think about it why does the chain need slack in the first place? It’s because you have to allow for changes in chain tension due to the up and down movement of the swing arm due to the suspension compressing and extending. The position of the front sprocket is fixed rigid to the engine and the engine is bolted into the frame so the position of the front sprocket can’t move up or down but the rear sprocket is part of the swing arm assembly so the position of the rear sprocket changes, it has to move up and down relative to the front sprocket when the swing arm moves up and down. If you look at picture 1
([url]http://i68.tinypic.com/22jmv4.png[/url])
Imagine that picture 1 is when both wheels are on the ground the distance on side A is equal to the distance on B. In picture 2 say you hit a bump as you're riding and the suspension compresses and the swing arm pivots up around it’s pivot point so the rear sprocket pivots up relative to the front sprocket. This means the distance on side A will get shorter and side B will get longer so the tension on side A will be less and the tension on side B will be greater. That's why you need slack in the chain.
In picture 3 when you put the bike on the centre stand you’re doing the opposite, you’re taking the weight off the rear suspension so the suspension extends and the swing arm pivots down so side A would get longer and side B would get shorter creating more tension on side A and more slack on side B. That means if you adjust the chain to have 30mm slack on side B when the bike is on the centre stand, when you put it back down onto it’s wheels and the suspension compresses and the swing arm pivots up side B will tighten up and you’ll have less than 30mm slack. YamFazFan proved that’s what happens with his measurements. On the centre stand he measured 30mm slack. When he put the bike on both wheels he measured 26mm because the weight of the bike caused the suspension to compress and the swing arm to pivot up slightly. The slack side will tighten even more when you sit on the bike because you’re compressing the suspension more and that’s causing the swing arm to pivot up more. It'll tighten more if you have a pillion. And it'll tighten more when you hit a bump in the road.
Pictures 2 & 3 are the same, just the reverse of each other.
I think irrespective of how you check your chain slack, whether on centre or side stand, once you know what feels right you'll know what to do next time anyway.
I don't even measure any more, i started using the "Unfazed" way by pushing the chain up until it just hits the chain slide. It seems to be adequate enough.
And don't forget the manual suggests 30-45mm play on my bike so it's not that critical. It's the sound effects that play more an important role for me.
Of course it's a mirror image because the swing arm pivots around the same point whether it's pivoting up or down so the effect is the same just on opposite sides of the chain.
Say YamFazman found that it's a 5mm difference just from the weight of the bike. 5mm difference when the spec is 30mm-45mm that's 11% to 17% difference just from the weight of the bike. Sit a 100kg rider on the bike and the slack side will tighten more probably another few mm. Sit a 60kg pillion on and it'll tighten more, then add in hitting bumps and it tightens more. It would be made even worse if your chain was a bit old and had a tight spot in it. Does adjusting it on the centre stand make such a huge difference that it causes major problems? It seems not based on the fact that some people adjust it on the centre stand and get away with it but the point that I'm try to explain is that is it does make a difference. They give you the 30mm-45mm spec for when both wheels are on the ground so if you're using the 30mm-45mm as your guide you have to have both wheels on the ground to get the right amount of slack. Saying that adjusting it on the centre stand makes no difference isn't correct
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Like you said most people probably adjust it by eye, give it a wiggle up and down and call it good because they know from experience what to expect. That's totally different from taking a measurement. All I'm saying is if you're doing it by the measurement method having the bike on the centre stand or on the ground does make a difference.
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As you say we do what we do and all seems to be okay, i've just never adjusted my chain on the sidestand ever before because i want to spin the wheel to hear if it's right or not, so it makes no practical sense to me.
There must be a happy medium somewhere too 'cos i'm no lightweight, have taken pillion before, and also have a large top box which is normally half full of whatever and have never considered adjusting the chain to compensate for the extra weight one day, and the lack of it the next.
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The yamaha service manual says to adjust the chain so there is 30-40mm of slack at the tightest point. Here is where it gets awkward though. It says to do it with both wheels on the ground. With both wheels on the ground, how are you meant to spin the wheel to find the tightest point?
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Another thing i noticed as well recently is how much freer the chain feels after switching from chain lube, which i've used for decades, to using engine oil instead.
It's very noticeable, especially how each individual link appears totally unrestricted in movement.
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As you say we do what we do and all seems to be okay, i've just never adjusted my chain on the sidestand ever before because i want to spin the wheel to hear if it's right or not, so it makes no practical sense to me.
There must be a happy medium somewhere too 'cos i'm no lightweight, have taken pillion before, and also have a large top box which is normally half full of whatever and have never considered adjusting the chain to compensate for the extra weight one day, and the lack of it the next.
I guess they take into account all the variables that can happen when they come up with the 30-45mm limits so as long as you're in that range you're good. If you can get into that 30-45mm range by eye by adjusting it with the bike on the centre stand you're sorted, don't change a thing. If you were putting it up on the centre stand and then adjusting it with a ruler to 30-45mm when you put it back down on two wheels it might be over tightened a bit. But we're probably splitting hairs anyway I just like to look at things from an engineering/maths points of view
The yamaha service manual says to adjust the chain so there is 30-40mm of slack at the tightest point. Here is where it gets awkward though. It says to do it with both wheels on the ground. With both wheels on the ground, how are you meant to spin the wheel to find the tightest point?
Doing it on the side stand certainly does make the whole process more awkward. I just roll the bike back a few times and then flex the chain each time to see if there is a tighter area, then adjust it from there. It adds a bit of time to the process but with regular oiling how often do you even need to adjust the chain so the bit of extra effort of doing it on the side stand isn't a big deal.
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You're right there, i only really have to consider adjusting the chain when the rear wheel needs removing, otherwise it simply doesn't get touched other than cleaning or lubing.
Again another thing i've noticed about using engine oil on it is that i don't particularly even find it necessary to clean the chain so often in comparison to when i used to use the chain lube. It doesn't get anywhere near as dirty or gritty as before, which can only be a bonus.
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Another thing i noticed as well recently is how much freer the chain feels after switching from chain lube, which i've used for decades, to using engine oil instead.
It's very noticeable, especially how each individual link appears totally unrestricted in movement.
Yeah I've noticed that too. I think the oil gradually washes off whereas the sticky spray lube gets full of dirt and grit. I switched to gear oil years ago because the cans of spray lube are a rip off for the amount of applications you get out of them. For the same price you can get a 1lt bottle of gear oil that will last a life time if all you're doing with it is lubing chains. You do have to apply it more regularly than the spray lube though. And only apply a small amount to avoid fling. I brush it on with a tooth brush.
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Another thing i noticed as well recently is how much freer the chain feels after switching from chain lube, which i've used for decades, to using engine oil instead.
It's very noticeable, especially how each individual link appears totally unrestricted in movement.
Yeah I've noticed that too. I think the oil gradually washes off whereas the sticky spray lube gets full of dirt and grit. I switched to gear oil years ago because the cans of spray lube are a rip off for the amount of applications you get out of them. For the same price you can get a 1lt bottle of gear oil that will last a life time if all you're doing with it is lubing chains. You do have to apply it more regularly than the spray lube though. And only apply a small amount to avoid fling. I brush it on with a tooth brush.
Maybe i should try gear oil, as it's a bit heavier than engine oil.
I've just been using a paintbrush when the chain is warm and you can really see that every part of the links get properly oiled.
Had to put newspaper down in the garage for excess drips but that's hardly a big deal.
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It does seem to hold on a bit better alright but you do still get a few drips. Not many though as long as you just give it a light coat.
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I support the bike by the frame, uncouple the linkage/shock, lift the rear wheel till the chain slack is at its least amount (you'll feel it go over centre when it loosens again). Support the wheel with chain at its tightest point, then adjust the chain in this position so slack is at a minimum, turn the wheel to a few different points and check slack in case of any sprocket high spots. Re assemble then put the bike on it's centre stand or paddock stand in my case as somebody chopped it off, pick a reference point on top or bottom of swinging arm immediately behind chain wear pad. Pull the chain away from the swinging arm, this is my correct chain slack. I then cut a wooden block to this thickness to use as a quick check gauge until chain/sprocket renewal. Make the block small enough to keep in your pocket or stash under the seat.
This has worked fine for all my bikes except the Moto Guzzi.
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PUT It on a paddock stand that goes onto the swing arm does the same thing as having both wheels on the ground , or what i do is put it on the centre stand and use a ratchet strap from the swing arm to the frame and tighten it till the chain gets to its tightest point then adjust from there
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This what the manual says (See Pics) pic 2 is the continuation of first pic but on the next page. I agree with some of the remarks in here, Centre Stand tightest spot on the lower chain run, push the chain up without excessive force, and, if the chain just touches the rear of the chain guide on the bottom of the swinging arm you are about right.
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Also these chain tightening instructions cover YZF & FZS, the YZF only had a side stand. :)
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I support the bike by the frame, uncouple the linkage/shock, lift the rear wheel till the chain slack is at its least amount (you'll feel it go over centre when it loosens again). Support the wheel with chain at its tightest point, then adjust the chain in this position so slack is at a minimum, turn the wheel to a few different points and check slack in case of any sprocket high spots. Re assemble then put the bike on it's centre stand or paddock stand in my case as somebody chopped it off, pick a reference point on top or bottom of swinging arm immediately behind chain wear pad. Pull the chain away from the swinging arm, this is my correct chain slack. I then cut a wooden block to this thickness to use as a quick check gauge until chain/sprocket renewal. Make the block small enough to keep in your pocket or stash under the seat.
This has worked fine for all my bikes except the Moto Guzzi.
I just look at mine :lol
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I support the bike by the frame, uncouple the linkage/shock, lift the rear wheel till the chain slack is at its least amount (you'll feel it go over centre when it loosens again). Support the wheel with chain at its tightest point, then adjust the chain in this position so slack is at a minimum, turn the wheel to a few different points and check slack in case of any sprocket high spots. Re assemble then put the bike on it's centre stand or paddock stand in my case as somebody chopped it off, pick a reference point on top or bottom of swinging arm immediately behind chain wear pad. Pull the chain away from the swinging arm, this is my correct chain slack. I then cut a wooden block to this thickness to use as a quick check gauge until chain/sprocket renewal. Make the block small enough to keep in your pocket or stash under the seat.
This has worked fine for all my bikes except the Moto Guzzi.
I just look at mine :lol
WTF :eek
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I support the bike by the frame, uncouple the linkage/shock, lift the rear wheel till the chain slack is at its least amount (you'll feel it go over centre when it loosens again). Support the wheel with chain at its tightest point, then adjust the chain in this position so slack is at a minimum, turn the wheel to a few different points and check slack in case of any sprocket high spots. Re assemble then put the bike on it's centre stand or paddock stand in my case as somebody chopped it off, pick a reference point on top or bottom of swinging arm immediately behind chain wear pad. Pull the chain away from the swinging arm, this is my correct chain slack. I then cut a wooden block to this thickness to use as a quick check gauge until chain/sprocket renewal. Make the block small enough to keep in your pocket or stash under the seat.
This has worked fine for all my bikes except the Moto Guzzi.
I just look at mine :lol
WTF :eek
Either right or wrong :lol
31 years of bike riding tends to give you a 'hunch' :lol
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Oh-oh :eek , I better keep quiet about my procedure for weighing silencers :z .
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Oh-oh :eek , I better keep quiet about my procedure for weighing silencers :z .
Weighing silencers.....please enlighten us?
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Just referring to the original post for anyone without scales, it involves a bath of water and a Greek. But enough of that.
:D
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when it comes to chain adjustment just going by basic engineering principles, you can only adjust by the tightest position. i have always sat on bike so its under load wheel it forward or spin it to find tightest spot then sit on it and adjust from there, its not rocket science, but if you dont adjust the tightest spot its gonna be too tight and put strain on gearbox. when it comes to chain lube i use gear oil, engine oil is too thin and gets all over rear tyre. i have also used chainsaw oil as it stays on but maybe being too sticky has its disadvantages