ABS V Non ABS

[lew600fazer]

I am sure this is old hat and been done to death before. Just in another thread, I mentioned that it was a proven fact that ABS braking is better and will stop you quicker than a Non ABS bike. What views do others have. Click on the link I am basing my arguement on this although I have not read it all. I remember a video I watched a few years back. I think it was Jamie Whitham was a doubter as regards ABS. I cannot remember what bikes he was testing but he did the test using bikes of the same marque ABS&NON ABS also in wet and dry conditions. He agreed that ABS out performed NON ABS.
http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanmotorcyclist.com%2FFeatures%2FRideReports%2FAntiLockBraking.aspx&ei=J_lpVNrUFdevaZTlgKAE&usg=AFQjCNGMWiXz9MfGYQvRtnlvAo8jkuOoXA&bvm=bv.79142246,d.d2s

[noggythenog]

Ok Lew....just for the sake of getting the argument going then ill chip in something......i havent read that article so i suppose it is straight from the noggy bonce so it will probably be complete crap but hey what the hell it's the season to be jolly......or debate in depth while not riding




My tuppence worth..........outperforming is a bit of a loose term.............i think that someone using standard brakes.......at the limit will perform better than the same person clamping on with ABS...........something pulsing on and off cant be as good as the constant force....on the limit.


But of course that is purely clinical scientific stuff because how do you know that you're on the limit until you lock up......you don't......so practically then ABS are better.




Im actually in favour of ABS although i dont have it.......because ive locked up my old 600 twice......so clearly i would benefit from it.....it would allow me to ride around my flaws.....in this case grabbing a handful........in emergency situations it is a life saver......but for the rest of the time then i'd have the tendency to say that standard is best...especially for top class riders.


But theres surely another element to it.......for amateur or inexperience riders.....is ABS having a tendency to take away the fundementals.....if you can just hoof it about the place anchoring on without any worries then could some people then tend to learn incorrect technique on the bike such as looking ahead, staying away from the brakes as much as possible etc.


Ill need to have alook at the article at a later time to see whether it can change my mind set.......but im thinking now..ok so the race rider said that ABS was better....well he is a racer and so he already knows the fundamentals of good braking so i think in that case he is using it properly but quite how the average joe would use the ABS is another issue.....personally i think that it would make me relax a bit more and focus on the rest of my riding more and having used standard brakes to make all my mistakes i think id get good use of ABS without per say having it activating but brand new bikers im not so sure about.......then again most cars have ABS these days so i suppose most car drivers dont really realise much about proper braking technique either.


It's a difficult thing to prove....ok so yamaha makes a new bike with ABS.....well they still want that bike to brake just as well if not better than their previous non ABS model.......they are creating the bike so they will always achieve this whether that means fitting larger discs or calipers or whatever but would the Non ABS bike perform just as well if it was retrofitted with ABS without any other mods......i just dont know.....do bikes with ABS generally have different discs and calipers as far as performance is involved?




At the end of the day though i would say that ABS is good and worthwhile......whether it outperforms non ABS will be least of my concern when i am using it in an emergency situation.

[Fazafou]

Yes it's been done to death and very heated on some forums

Firstly, ABS isnt just for braking but is also a steering aid (primarily so in a car actually), it allows control of the bike while at the limits of braking. This is something the non-ABS fanboys fail to realise.

Secondly, in panic situations or moment of low concentration it will be responding well before any human could and could save your skin.

Let's be honest, everyone talks of skilled braking blah blah, but in reality we ride in some grim conditions, cold, wet early in the morning commuting, long tedious journeys getting tired etc.

In those instances and in moments of emergency braking even the most skilled riders can  throw the controlled braking book out of the window.

Look at professional racers, yeah super skilled braking for corners but quite often a bike goes down in front of them and they give it a handful in panic and either hit them or go straight into kitty litter as they can't control it under such hard braking.

Anyway, something there for the ABS haters to get going on

[JoeRock]

From what I've read/experienced.


Most older ABS systems can be outbraked by an acceptable rider, in the dry. I've ridden a few and they kicked on in situations where I know there was no good reason for it.
Most modern ABS systems (particularly the sport models fitted to the ZX10R, CBR1000RR, etc) are very good. They can still be outbraked in the dry, but the class of rider has to be much higher than on the older models for that to happen. In the wet, they're much better, except for maybe top tier racers - particularly on the road, even for good riders where we have to deal with white lines, manhole covers, kids running out in front of us etc etc.


Personally, I would prefer a bike with ABS fitted on the road, but I'd also want the ability to turn it off for the track and for sunny days.


Steering on ABS equipped motorcycles doesn't work as with cars, but that said KTM for certain (and I believe BMW) are introducing ABS models that are now dependent on the lean angle of the bike, and I imagine they will be bloody brilliant.


FWIW - my current shiny ride is a 2007 ZX10R - it's got decent brakes, and a shed tonne of midrange. I've not yet locked the brakes up, but I've had the wheel spin up a few times under power in the wet/damp/cold. I'm thinking of fitting ABS to it (will involve taking a ZZr1400 system and modifying it) - my throttle control is sufficient that if it does spin up, its usually upright and not a worry to sort out, but braking is something that if something runs out in front of me I'd be concerned of losing the front end.

[Hedgetrimmer]

I'm thinking a good ABS system may well have saved my sorry ass the other week. 30-odd years riding, and still managed to lock up the back brake    Although in my defence, I have never had HH pads in the back before, and am not at all used to their ferociousness yet. They are bound for the bin.

When ABS first started to appear on production bikes, I was like many others; staunchly against it for taking control away from the rider. But if they really are that much better now, I'd have to say I'm interested.

[bigralphie]

The ABS is almost unnoticeable on my 13 plate ZZR1400
Being of the old progressive braking school I don't see any reason to change how I brake
I like technology that sits in the background waiting to work if required (ABS and Traction control)
In 10k miles I can only think of twice when the ABS has chipped in


A car shot out of the entrance of a cafe when waved out by a guy waiting to turn in (but he never thought to look right  [size=78%]) had to brake hard and the ABS pulsed in the last 20 yards of my stop ,,,ABS probably didn't help but didn't seem to hinder either .[/size]


I rode into a jet wash bay ( a bit quick because I,m an impatient git lol) and didn't realise it was completely covered by thick mud I touched the front brake and the ABS kicked in straight away and I think saved an embarrassing drop   

[locksmith]

Without riding the same machine with and without ABS, you cant really form an opinion.

Mt MT-09 is the first bike I've ridden with ABS. Since buying it in May, the front ABS has activated three times. Just a couple of clicks but it is interesting to note to yourself that the front is that close to locking up.

Previously, I've never (knowingly) locked the front up before on any other bike, but not ridden a non ABS MT before.


Edit:
Noggy, are you assuming that people will just grab a fistful of brake every time just because they have ABS? Surely no-one would do that?
I just ride as normal.
FWIW I don't think I've hardly ever activated it on my cars or van either!

[Hedgetrimmer]

anti-locksmith ^^ 

[locksmith]

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Secondly, in panic situations or moment of low concentration it will be responding well before any human could and could save your skin.

You got it.  You are riding along, relaxed taking it easy, thinking of what to have for din dins or frozen to death in the pissing rain in the middle of winter can't feel your fingers etc.  Well in both situations if something out of the blue happens and you need to stop, ABS will win the day every single time without fail. 

Do I have it on my bike - no, does it bother me I ain't got it - no, would I like it, sure I would.

[lew600fazer]

Having riden british bikes and pulling the brakes hard on was as effective as pulling the clutch in. Progressing to Japanese bikes and things like twin leading shoe front brakes were you actually could stop in a reasonable distance. Then we got disc brakes better again and now we have ABS. I suppose over the years my method of braking as altered with new technolgy.
But having had ABS on all my bikes from 2007 can only think of once were I really had the ABS pulsing
My preference is ABS.
I am sure that bikes built on and from 2015 will have fitted  ABS as standard (EU) regulations,

[Fazafou]

Being of the old progressive braking school I don't see any reason to change how I brake
I like technology that sits in the background waiting to work if required (ABS and Traction control)

Agree with this, I'm the same and brake how I always have. The ABS is just in the background and I've had it operate a couple of times ever (2 bikes now over about 4 years). Weird feeling but makes you realise when you're on the edge.

[Dead Eye]

I'm all for ABS, I'm not certain who said it the other day in a different thread but they hit the nail on the head imo with their comment; "ABS may not make you stop quicker, but it will make you stop safer" - I paraphrase a bit, but I think that sentiment holds true and most others have made comments in the same vein already. There's obviously some exception, but I still think it holds as a majority rule.

I've never had ABS until my most recent car, I think it's kicked in once since I've had it. But, having not had ABS before I've always had adapt and judge and have a feel for the brakes in my vehicles - sort of what noggy was saying, except not over 4 paragraphs My friend however, had always had ABS until he bought an old Mitsubishi FTO ('95)... he had issues with locking the brakes due to his past experience. He'd always been used to ABS being there and hadn't ever been in a situation where he was able to lock the brakes.

So, ABS sort of has a flaw in creating a reliance and the only way to avoid that is to make it mandatory on all new vehicles. This part is the grey area for me, I understand the concept and the logic, but it takes away a valuable learning experience in my opinion. Actually, the only other solution is to force new riders / drivers to train on vehicles that aren't equipped with ABS. But that leads in to another discussion entirely that goes along the same lines that all drivers should be made to experience riding a bike... to that my response is that all riders should be made to experience driving a car

My personal feelings for it are summed up perfectly by VNA;

Do I have it on my bike - no, does it bother me I ain't got it - no, would I like it, sure I would.

[lew600fazer]

Well folks our friends at the EU commission have stated that all new motorcycles above 125cc will be fitted with ABS braking systems from the 1st January 2016.

[Dead Eye]

I had a feeling it might go that way...

No doubt the handbags will start flying about this time next year as that time approaches :P

[locksmith]

Don't worry, the French will have a mass ride out/go on strike/riot/spray manure on the town halls and it will be postponed !!

[bigralphie]

Now if your taking off road bike very different lol

[Fazafou]

While I like ABS I also think people should be free to choose, so I'd go along for the manure spraying too

[Hedgetrimmer]

While I like ABS I also think people should be free to choose, so I'd go along for the manure spraying too

Agreed. And it's not about the safety, but not having a choice in the increased cost of a bike. Also, when I was working at a bike dealer's, FJRs in particular were often having problems with the wheel mounted sensors. So still further cost when it goes wrong. All in all, I think I would prefer to have it though.

[noggythenog]

While I like ABS I also think people should be free to choose, so I'd go along for the manure spraying too

If i dont have any manure then can i just shit in a bag?.....id love to have a go and ive got some cheap poo bags that always seem to split open so i reckon they'd be perfect upon impact.

[helloindustries]

I don't see how it's even debatable. Facts are facts.

For the average biker on average roads; Having ABS is preferable to not having it. Shame it's a bit expensive.
I wish i had it on my bike as there's always that delay/doubt when slamming the brakes on and having to keep off the full force for fear of locking up. That wouldn't be an issue with ABS.

If i can afford it; I'd prefer to have my next bike with ABS.

[ferret]

not having a bike with abs although my rear calliper has been seized solid for the last 11 months (FZS600) what happens when it goes wrong? are you stuck by the side of the road or can you carry on riding.
by the way I'm on the fence about ABS on bikes(open to persuasion) but most definitely anti EU  nothing will change my mind about those fuckers

[Fazafou]

If it goes wrong you just have normal brakes.

[lew600fazer]

Don't worry, the French will have a mass ride out/go on strike/riot/spray manure on the town halls and it will be postponed !!

Yea the french do kick off and have mass rideouts and demos, but I am sure in France now it is not possible to buy a NEW bike over 100bhp. Will check but I think that law was passed a year or so back.

http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.visordown.com%2Fmotorcycle-news-industry%2Ffrench-100bhp-limit-to-be-revoked%2F21859.html&ei=f09sVOWYHs-vaZ_zgZgI&usg=AFQjCNE5IIZGqA1DA6f1qFEm-kymLRyfCA&bvm=bv.80120444,d.d2s

Some times I am full of shite, now now no response needed. lol. I was nearly right it has been revoked.

[locksmith]

See, a bit of manure flinging goes a long way


Interesting point though, the 100hp limit has been in force since 1985 to reduce motorcycle deaths and nigh on 30 years later theres no evidence to support that it worked.