braided hose brake lines

[fazerblue]

Does anybody know if braided hoses are better than the original ones on the fazer or like some bikes make it worst input is great-full thanks

[Neon Knight]

You must really want an answer to this 1 

[stevierst]

Yes, they make a difference.

[JoeRock]

They're always better (after a few years) - unless the original had braided to start with!

[MrGimly]

Dunno about the whole brake line thing,TBH standard lines work better for me.
I find stainless brake lines don,t feel right on a standard road bike,they may feel better on a full on sportsbike but not on my roadbike.
 

[unfazed]

It is down to choice, I personally do not like them as they lack the feel of the standard hoses , others love them.
I have always recommended that you ride a bike with braided hoses before you change your own bike to them.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Does anybody know if braided hoses are better than the original ones on the fazer or like some bikes make it worst input is great-full thanks

What?

[jeffco]

I changed mine last year, my bikes an 04 and as far as I know had the original lines on . So....yes it defiantly stop quicker...but it is far less forgiving of those situations where you think  Shit! I know I shouldn't really break here but im going to have to  very  very gently apply a bit .....there isn't so much gently about it . It will probably improve with wear and practice but for me , I probably regret changing

[fazerblue]

thanks for the help i am just an average rider so hearing these comments i think i will stick to the original brake lines.

[PieEater]

Rubber hoses will age and deteriorate, for safety reasons replacement is advised after 4 years regardless of condition. Personally if my Gen1 still had OEM brake lines replacing them would be at the top of my to do list whether this was with braided or like-for-like.

I think people's negative reactions to braided lines may partly be because there is a big difference in performance and feel between old rubber hoses and new braided lines. From personal experience there is a short period of adjustment whilst you adapt to the feel of the brakes after which you forget what the rubber ones felt like.

[JoeRock]

Rubber hoses will age and deteriorate, for safety reasons replacement is advised after 4 years regardless of condition. Personally if my Gen1 still had OEM brake lines replacing them would be at the top of my to do list whether this was with braided or like-for-like.

I think people's negative reactions to braided lines may partly be because there is a big difference in performance and feel between old rubber hoses and new braided lines. From personal experience there is a short period of adjustment whilst you adapt to the feel of the brakes after which you forget what the rubber ones felt like.

Would definitely agree. That, or people are incredibly hamfisted with their brakes!


Personally, I want my brakes in tip top condition,and don't want less than full braking power/efficiency!

[fazed]

Go along with JoeRock on this one.  Have replaced all brakepipes on my Fazer 1000 with HEL lines and in my experience the difference over rubber hoses is really marked better feel and stronger action...Make sure fluid is changed at right times and if pads and discs are in good condition I think you'll maintain brake performance at the optimum

[stevierst]

I'm with fazed on this. It's just sharper/crisper feel if everything else is in good nick.

It doesn't suddenly transform them into razor sharp snatchy brakes at all.

[PaulSmith]

One of the reasons manufacturers go with rubber hoses even on thier high end kit is that their bikes are sometimes bought by fools with no skill, experience or training. These are the sort of people who are more likely to grab at the brakes and so have a fractionally better chance of survivng if the breaks are soggy and slow to grip.  The extreme of this was Honda's linked braking system where the bike decided how to slow down instead of the rider. Some high end cars will even decide when to slow down, with their 'brake assist' type features on the basis that some drivers are too timid to use their brakes fully.

There is a market for this and there are people for whom it is the better system. Fortunatly Yamaha gives us the choice of staying with rubber hoses or changing to braided giving a higher degree of control but being more sensitive to mistakes.

If you are not sure which would suit you better, I would suggest you don't change them yet but put some serious practice into your braking and see if you cant improve your control and  technique. Then you will be able to better decide for yourself from a position of knowledge.

[PieEater]

I would suggest you don't change them yet but put some serious practice into your braking and see if you cant improve your control and  technique.

Putting 9-14 year old hoses under additional pressure through attempting to learn better braking could well end up in the hoses giving out and a trip to A&E. I don't see the point in spending time trying to improve braking techniques on a system that is already well past it's best and that will continue to degrade likely to the point of failure. The same amount of time would be much better spent acclimatising to an efficient braking system with new hoses and considerably less chance of failure.

[JoeRock]

One of the reasons manufacturers go with rubber hoses even on thier high end kit is that their bikes are sometimes bought by fools with no skill, experience or training.

Sorry mate, but that's completely wrong. It's because when they're new, OE rubber lines have the same tensile strength as steel hoses, but are considerably cheaper than braided. It's just as time goes on they deteriorate, and braided don't - hence standard hoses being a 4 year service item!




A lot of manufacturers do now use braided as standard, but most of them are "premium" products; Ducati, Benelli, etc. Interestingly though I know Triumph use them as well on all their bikes!

[hotmetal]

I put Venhill lines on my '54 plate Gen 1. But only because the oe ones had been on there for yonks and I thought they could do with being replaced. The braided lines do have a difference in feel, kind of stronger but more wooden if that makes sense? You soon get used to it though. I think the biggest difference people notice is because they probably haven't put new fluid in since the bike was built, rather than the lines themselves though.

The Venhill ones are nicely made and have swivelling banjos (yee hah Cletus squeal like a piggy dadading-ding-ding!) This means you don't get any twist in the lines when you tighten them up.

[unfazed]

I know what you mean by wooden and it was for that very reason I went back to new OEM ones.
I never could get used to the wooden feel from the braided lines.
I think I must have bought the last Right side OEM hose for the 600 as they are out of production now.
It is possible to have rubber ones made up and they are tested to 3000psi on the machine which I am going to try for the 1000 next year.

[PaulSmith]

I would suggest you don't change them yet but put some serious practice into your braking and see if you cant improve your control and  technique.

Putting 9-14 year old hoses under additional pressure through attempting to learn better braking could well end up in the hoses giving out and a trip to A&E. I don't see the point in spending time trying to improve braking techniques on a system that is already well past it's best and that will continue to degrade likely to the point of failure. The same amount of time would be much better spent acclimatising to an efficient braking system with new hoses and considerably less chance of failure.

Huh? Tell me where you would rather they failed? On a quite piece of road with no traffic or danger if you dont stop as quick as you would like, or when shit is happeneing and you will die if you dont stop as quick as you would like? Hmmm, let me think about that one.

If you don't trust your hoses to do the job, what the foc are you doing riding the bike in the first place? And if you don't see the point of trying to improve your braking technique, you probably never will.

[PaulSmith]

Sorry mate, but that's completely wrong. It's because when they're new, OE rubber lines have the same tensile strength as steel hoses, but are considerably cheaper than braided. It's just as time goes on they deteriorate, and braided don't - hence standard hoses being a 4 year service item!

The cost difference is a factor, but it is only a dollar or two per meter in commercial quantities, so no, it is not a big factor. It is not called tensile strength, but I know what you mean, but again, they are not the same when new. Unbraided hoses expand under internal pressure far more than braided ones, even when new, giving a softer feel. As they get older and the material weakens (from expanding) they expand even more to the point where braking force is comprimised, that is why they are a service item.

Having a softer feel means a rider is less likely to lock up when they snatch the brakes the way inexperienced (or unpracticed) riders are more likely to do, but it also means braking distance is increased because there is less rider control over the braking. 

If you still believe braided and unbraided hoses are the same when new, ask yourself why most racers replace their new unbraided lines with braided ones.

[PieEater]

Huh? Tell me where you would rather they failed?

Why - when I'm advising replacement of degraded hoses in order to eliminate failure in the first place? You can't choose where degraded hoses will fail, but you can pretty much guarantee that when they do it will be when they are under greater than normal pressure i.e. when practicing sharp braking or when actually attempting to avoid an accident i.e. "when shit is happeneing and you will die if you dont stop as quick as you would like".

If you don't trust your hoses to do the job, what the foc are you doing riding the bike in the first place?

We're not talking about my hoses or yours, if as I suspect the hoses in question are the OEM ones then they should already have been replaced and should be viewed as potentially unsafe. This  is why I am advising that they be replaced as a matter of priority and why I think your advice to the contrary is inappropriate.

And if you don't see the point of trying to improve your braking technique, you probably never will.

You obviously didn't read my post properly, I never said that there was no point improving braking technique rather that there was no point doing so on a degraded failure prone braking system when the alternative was to fit new lines and learn how to make the best of a fully functional safe braking system.

The fact remains that Yamaha state clearly in the owners handbook that the OEM brake lines should be replaced after 4 years. For whatever reason people may choose not to replace the hoses within these timescales but given that the OEM lines are now more than double or even triple this age, they really ought to be replaced for safety reasons. Advice to the contrary is potentially putting peoples lives in danger.

[JoeRock]

Take a look why you should. Or at least replace them with NEW rubber ones (which is a bit of a pointless exercise as it'll happen again, and they're probably more expensive too)


http://xjbikes.com/forums/index.php?threads/why-you-need-to-replace-original-brake-lines-w-pics.41400/

[Simon.Pieman]

One of the reasons manufacturers go with rubber hoses even on thier high end kit is that their bikes are sometimes bought by fools with no skill, experience or training. These are the sort of people who are more likely to grab at the brakes and so have a fractionally better chance of survivng if the breaks are soggy and slow to grip. 

No manufacturer would use that logic. From both an engineering and marketing view it's doesn't make any sense.
 

[PaulSmith]

One of the reasons manufacturers go with rubber hoses even on thier high end kit is that their bikes are sometimes bought by fools with no skill, experience or training. These are the sort of people who are more likely to grab at the brakes and so have a fractionally better chance of survivng if the breaks are soggy and slow to grip. 

No manufacturer would use that logic. From both an engineering and marketing view it's doesn't make any sense.
 

It makes less sense to be known as the company that makes 'widowmakers'. Yamaha are believed to have a lot of potential sales in the seventies across all their bikes because they made the RD350. An absolute nutters bike deeply loved by nutters but it scared off many 'normal' bikers. And bikes that pitch inexperienced riders over the bars, even if they shouldn't be riding them in the first place, do not make good marketing material.

[PaulSmith]

You obviously didn't read my post properly, I never said that there was no point improving braking technique rather that there was no point doing so on a degraded failure prone braking system when the alternative was to fit new lines and learn how to make the best of a fully functional safe braking system.

We are going around in circles here. I say he should practise to improve, then decide if he should change, you said he should change and then practise. If his brakes aren't good enough to practise safely, then he should not be riding the bike at all.