folk starting to take the p--- now

[flyboy]

Downfall video parody: Hitler on Valentino Rossi's qualifying in Qatar

   

[pitternator]

well it all depends which way you want to look at it ....stoner is the only rider who has been successful on the duke...yet rossi won many world championships on what started out as dog bikes ( M1 yamaha in 2003 anyone ??)...so its not as straightforward as it may seem. Stoner was always going to move to Honda, he stopped at ducati while Honda were developing the RC211, and moved at the same time its become the best bike out there.Look at how easily he and pedrosa just wafted past everyone at quatar...lorenzo won by hanging on , and stoner had arm pump at the end...pedrosa ( who for my mind is too much like criville...) failed to push past lorenzo and take the win.He just does not have lorenzos grit IMO...
But even so , Lorenzo shows how it can still be beaten on the day.Rossi finished quite close to the pack in the end, but is still so far adrift its disturbing.... it cant go on for both parties sake...and for us all as race followers...so this year will be critical. Make or break IMO. Either competitive wins and podiums ...or maybe world supers !! 

[Phil TK]

 I bet Rossi will walk away from Ducati before the end of next month if not before. Ducati will say they sacked him of course.

 Is it me, or has Stoner never lost a race without him trotting out a mitigating excuse for being beaten? I think that young man needs to learn how to acknowledge being bettered on the day because another rider rode better than him.

[Andy Clap]

 I bet Rossi will walk away from Ducati before the end of next month if not before. Ducati will say they sacked him of course.

No way.  Midway through 2013 maybe.

Is it me, or has Stoner never lost a race without him trotting out a mitigating excuse for being beaten? I think that young man needs to learn how to acknowledge being bettered on the day because another rider rode better than him.

He was slagging his team off before the race even started, more or less "lazy sh1tes know I'm fast so can't be arsed to make the bike any good".  And they have the cheek to call us Whinging Poms!

[Gingernutz]

Is it me, or has Stoner never lost a race without him trotting out a
mitigating excuse for being beaten? I think that young man needs to learn how to
acknowledge being bettered on the day because another rider rode better than
him.

Funny how you two people can hear the same thing and get different impressions - when Moaner said that he had lost because of arm pump - I thought 'well at least for once he is acknowledging its his own fault for not being fit enough'. The longer he is at the top of his game the more I begrudgingly come to admire him. Rossi's inability to ride the Ducati made him look very good last year and he is out there at the top again this year. He is no 'star' off the track and has the carisma of a jam rag but when you see the little fecker sliding his bike around corners in perfect control its hard not to admire him. I wondered if the new bigger bikes would give the advantage back to the normal size humans (its a shame side show bob's no about to show us what he could do on a level playing field) but the little lads seem still to be at the front.

[pitternator]

Rossi is in a dilemma surely ...? just where would he go to if he did leave ducati ?. Honda wont want him, Yamaha have 2 world champions, suzuki dont race anymore. TBH he could only go to world supers or retire. Either one would be humiliating ....yet to soldier on is at the moment equally so. His only chance is to try to improve the duke.
At least he will get some satisfaction from his paycheque, but to my mind, he probably is rich enuff already, so the money is not so important as the self esteem. IF he could come back and win the championship.....feck what a achievement. Its got to be his motivation. Do another Hailwood !!

[mcyoungy]

Stick him on a CRT bike......... hell he could even fund his own team........... then see if he can do any worse.

[Skippernick]

Personally i don't think there is a problem with the bike that much.
This is all in Rossi's head and it all started when he broke his leg back in 2010, his fist major injury in his career and he's realised he's not unbrakeable, and then one of his best friends gets killed due to himself and another of his friends riding over him.
Its enough to make me think hell Ducati have given me enough to retire on and i don't have to even win a race.

[pitternator]

You dont know rossi, so its supposition. If you relook at the race, rossi was pretty much caught up with the other ducatis by the end  , so I still think its the bike not suiting what he wants as a rider . Rossis skills are so extreme he has to have machinery to do the job, to match stoner ( who is probably the best current rider in the world)  on a slower bike is a big ask.. The only way I would start to think it is his mind which is the drawback is if stoner , lorenzo and pedrosa could race at their current pace on the duke., or conversely if rossi was faster on the yam or honda.
Trouble is , no such comparison is really possible as all these bikes are designed around the rider so they are not interchangeable.
I also would look at formula 1 as an analogy ...by your reasoning that must mean Vettel is a has been this season !
 

[Andy Clap]

This is all in Rossi's head

He's a world class racer, and therefore doesn't have anything in his head.


Regarding the broken leg, it's true that two big off's made Toseland bottle it, but I don't think Rossi is like that.  After a tumble he's always the first to run over and get back on the bike (or even try to get back on what's left of it), it's the way he's programmed.

[Skippernick]

We'll see

[pitternator]

Andy
ref Toselands injury ...I have posted b4 that I empathize with JT cos I had almost the same injury from a bike crash. Its actually an impossible injury to recover from. Full stop. End of story. So please just stop thinking JT somehow wimped out. His wrist injury is non operable, non recoverable.He , like me is living on borrowed time before his wrist will need a full fusion , at which point any sort of wrist movement is ceased = great difficulty in using the throttle.As  road rider thi swill create great difficulty in riding a bike, let alone race one.... It really makes me mad when people who know absolutely zilch about an injury profess wisdom on such ....JT was forced out , not wimped out.

[Phil]

..yet rossi won many world championships on what started out as dog bikes ( M1 yamaha in 2003 anyone ??)...

I love the way that is dragged out with total disregard to the bloke who was the lead engineer at Yamaha at the time and actually lead the design of the bikes/engines Rossi chose from. Who else joined the team in 2004, and I'm not talking about JB either.

[Phil]

Regarding Rossi and Ducati, there are a lot of riders who have gone to Ducati and struggled. Even Stoner wasnt so strong when they went to control tyres.
 Stoners biggest problem has been not doing enough race simulations on the new bike to discover the arm pump issue.
 
 Anyway, the biggest plus for us lot is Yamaha doing so well.   Lorenzo,  even without Furusawa,  having helped Yamaha make the new bike a winner could win it this year. If he can win at a track he hasn't won at in the main class before its looking good for the rest of the year. Qatar showed the true grit never give up attitude. Could be a great season.
 
 
Forgot to put this in my previous post.
 http://www.crash.net/motogp/feature/162509/1/masao_furusawa_godfather_of_the_m1.html
 "For the last seven years Furusawa has always been the number one at Yamaha. Without him, I don't know what will happen. I was quite worried about this."

And to think a couple of years ago some Rossi fans slated Lorenzo for only doing well on the bike 'Rossi developed'.

[pitternator]

well its interesting that you feel the 2004 world championship maybe  would then have been won by any yamaha rider !
why is it so many cant actually give rossi credit for his achievements ??..I was watching it all unfold, and while for sure its always a team effort ...its the  rider who races and gives all the feedback to the engineers...not the other way round.The successful team has to have everything working in balance, but ultimately its the rider who wins the races.
Lorenzo is  a world champion, he too didnt get there by just having good engineers.However I still remember that thrilling last lap overtake by rossi on him, and yes the yamaha had been developed from zero to world beater by the main rider - rossi.It was definitely a help, but remember those riders didnt really share too much info, they were rivals as such.
An impassionate man might wonder just why the development of the ducati to a world beater has not happened...should we blame the engineers and factory then , if indeed rossi is not the person who developed the 04 yamaha...sorry , yer argument just dont hold water.There is still something we dont know, maybe in time this will come out , but for sure just now, ducati will not say.

[Andy Clap]

Andy
ref Toselands injury ...I have posted b4 that I empathize with JT cos I had almost the same injury from a bike crash. Its actually an impossible injury to recover from. Full stop. End of story. So please just stop thinking JT somehow wimped out. His wrist injury is non operable, non recoverable.He , like me is living on borrowed time before his wrist will need a full fusion , at which point any sort of wrist movement is ceased = great difficulty in using the throttle.As  road rider thi swill create great difficulty in riding a bike, let alone race one.... It really makes me mad when people who know absolutely zilch about an injury profess wisdom on such ....JT was forced out , not wimped out.

  Bilmey, sorry mate, no offence meant!  So I have to also confess I know nothing about Rossi's broken leg, and this may indeed make him bottle it retire early.

[bigralphie]

He has always so hard to fathom , but all the greats in all sports had a point where they just could not dominate any more.
Is that the case ? No idea but I don’t expect he will be out of the top 4 at the end of the season

[Phil]

well its interesting that you feel the 2004 world championship maybe  would then have been won by any yamaha rider !
 

Thats not what I said.

I was just saying it wasn't only Rossi who developed the bike.

[crishner]

 

And to think a couple of years ago some Rossi fans slated Lorenzo for only doing well on the bike 'Rossi developed'.

I would out out that at the begining of the season last year yamaha started with the new lorenzo developed bike and after 2 races they went back to the 2010 rossi bike

[Phil]

Well it wouldnt be the first time a 'team' went the wrong way.  Didn't Honda do the same in 2011? I remember seeing Pedrosa speed wobbling his way down Qatar that year. Was the 2010 winter the first time the testing rules came in restricting time spent on the bike by the main riders?

[pitternator]

its my point exactly. Honda had quite a few lean years when they won zilch. Yet nobody said it was pedrosas fault...!! I think the whole issue comes down to what seems to be a very english concept of knocking winners....like the sneer at JT wimping out ( or indeed anyone quitting a sport after injury), hence doohan and fogarty are therefore wimps eh ??
Come on FFS, lets get real and acknowledge ( like ralphie commented), that nobody can be at the top of their game for ever, and indeed racing is a fickle sport where success or failure is mere fractions of a second..
Meanwhile, going back to formula 1 as another analogy...I do wonder if Schumi might have taken that win in china if his stupid pitcrew had not left his wheel undone?....yet further proof of how the machine can limit or enhance the man !

[Phil]

  I think the whole issue comes down to what seems to be a very english concept of knocking winners.

I wasnt knocking Rossi in that sense.

I did have a chuckle when they said he had used Hayden's settings at Qatar as they were struggling with theirs. All this after the very public building of the wall in the Yamaha pits. If he wasn't so cocky then maybe people wouldn't have so much of a problem with him now. There was also the 'Stoner isnt trying' comments he made.

Going back to 2004 Rossi didnt pick the fastest engine, he picked the most user to match the user friendly handling Yamaha and relied on his skill to make the difference.
Sadly the Ducati isnt user friendly in its handling and thats his issue. I was hoping the softer construction tyres would help him out, I'd like to see Rossi back up at the front challenging for wins. I cant see that happening for a while under normal conditions.

Rossis skills are so extreme he has to have machinery to do the job, to match stoner ( who is probably the best current rider in the world)  on a slower bike is a big ask..

The Ducati isnt slow
http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/2012/QAT/MotoGP/RAC/AverageSpeed.pdf?v1_01cacdb9

and moved at the same time its become the best bike out there.Look at how easily he and pedrosa just wafted past everyone at quatar...lorenzo won by hanging on , 

Lorenzo beat Pedrosa though. Not just by hanging on either.

[pitternator]

oh but  yes he did...pedrosa overtook him easily on the straight, and lorenzo beat him back by sheer determination and " hanging on". He never gave up.IMO pedrosa should have won the race, but failed to capitalise on his advantage. In this race Lorenzo earned so much kudos over pedrosa, who clearly had the better machine.Certainly in my estimation he has grown leaps and bounds. Its so sad he was put out of the last races of last year by an INJURY.Or did he wimp out cos of an idsy bidsy finger injury ?? 
we need rossi ( and others) back at the front , its only lorenzo who is stopping the hondas making it all just a procession.

[mickdel]

Andy
ref Toselands injury ...I have posted b4 that I empathize with JT cos I had almost the same injury from a bike crash. Its actually an impossible injury to recover from. Full stop. End of story. So please just stop thinking JT somehow wimped out. His wrist injury is non operable, non recoverable.He , like me is living on borrowed time before his wrist will need a full fusion , at which point any sort of wrist movement is ceased = great difficulty in using the throttle.As  road rider thi swill create great difficulty in riding a bike, let alone race one.... It really makes me mad when people who know absolutely zilch about an injury profess wisdom on such ....JT was forced out , not wimped out.

I fully agree Pitt.  I bust my wrist in 92 - distal radial fracture or a "colles" fracture.  It was set, but I fell on it again, and it slightly moved and became unstable.  It had to be "broken" again, and reset.  It is mis-shapen compared to the right wrist, and is unstable when I put my full weight on it,  so when you've a wrist that moves around a bit,  you're never going to have full control when exerting maximum pressure on the joint - braking from 200mph plus could easily dislocate it,  and/or fracture again.    Wrists are very hard to heal because, my doc said,  the blood supply to the bones is very poor indeed.

[pitternator]

there is now another GP12 thread so some of this  may be double take, but I still maintain you cant compare hayden and rossi so simply...viz that rossi should be able to go faster on haydens settings. They are totally different riders....FFS cant anyone see how feckin desperate rossi is now to try anything to get the bike working how he wants it. IMO its  a total lost cause...because by now they would have found a solution if there was one to have . Realistically with all the talent , will and kudos rossi and his team have, if there was a solution, they would have had it by now.
By itself this failure must also be affecting rossi....that IMO much more than the broken leg, simos death....but totally there will be a psychological burden which few could keep composure under. If anything , I have admired rossi more now as a great , to put up with all the shite, and keep resolve.I do hope there will be a solution by 2013.
Contrast stoner who took a long period off racing when his mojo went when he was at ducati ...but rossi is a tryer, works by empirical methods, but surely now they must be exhausting possibilities..
 
oh and when I said " faster" in earlier comments , it is lap times I am referring to...just how else are racers compared or  judged by ????  .. its all about lap times...consistency , just why rossi was nicknamed the doctor in the first place, his ability to keep producing the goods, consistently and clinically, his ability to judge and take  corners etc...its feck all to do with top speed down the main straight ...you win races by being able to lap vary fast consistently , time after time. Its maybe stoners greatest ability ...rather than his ability to actually overtake as such.Once he is in front , he dont  tend to put  a foot wrong. Put him in midfield and sometimes he struggles a bit to get through. But on the current honda... well I reckon he could qualify anywhere on the grid and do well...
 
mick
I suffered a colles fracture which is usually a straightforward jobbie to set ,but I also suffered a  dislocation of every ligament in my wrist.I remember the top of my wrist came up like  a balloon! I had it reset twice in 1 week just after the crash, but it was unstable, and 3 months on , I saw a hand specialist  who  put it to me bluntly,  " that wrist is buggered".....inoperable...but by great effort , prayer and good fortune the same surgeon a month later operated  put it all together again, rebroke my arm , fashioned a new radial styloid, rebuilt my scaphoid, held it all  in place by screws, and 6 yrs on in spite of so many opinions it would fail...its still working to 80 % of  normal flexibility. Luckily for me its my left wrist ,and I am right handed , but I know it all could fail very easily. I certainly cant go racing ...one bust and its all in pieces. I do actually think it is a miracle...sounds daft to most , but it is to me.It certainly changed my life and how I look on things...