Is my battery on it's way out.....

[mobile mouse]

Hi,


My Fazer is 9years old this year it's a 2003 foxeye FZS600.


Going strong but the last few mornings I have switched the bike on started it up, all ok. Then while getting my gloves on there is the rattle chatter from under the seat. As if the relay is cutting in/out.


The bike is still running give it some revs and the chatter under the seat goes away.


The bike is on an optimate at least one night over the weekend usually Sunday night.


I ride all year round so the bike is on the road a lot.


So is my battery on it's way out and not holding charge properly.


A couple of weeks ago I left the headlights ON for 10-15minutes with the engine not running.


Then when I came to start it I got the full on chatter under the seat so I knew there wasn't enough charge in the battery to start the bike.


Put it on the optimate over night and the bike has been fine until now.


So have I possibly damaged the battery.


This is the 2nd battery and probably getting on for 4years old.


But it's regularly on the optimate.


So am I looking at the death throws of a soon to be duff battery.


Cheers,

[richfzs]

You're getting the starter relay clicking, when the bike is already running?

It not starting and you getting the "chatter" does sound like the battery is past its best (although there are other causes).

But the two together, sounds like one of the "other causes". Is the switch gear in good nick and clean? a strip and clean might be in order, or at least a good dosing with WD40

[Fazerider]

Year-round riding should be good for the battery provided the charging circuit is functioning. Even leaving the headlights on for 15 minutes shouldn't have killed it, that only equates to about 3AH worth of charge... not good practice, but as a once-off followed by a night on the charger shouldn't have done it much harm.
Is your Optimate one that reports on battery condition?
Otherwise, get a multimeter and see what the battery voltage is after being stood overnight (without the charger or any current drain from alarms etc.), if it's over 12.8V, it should be fine.
Not sure what the noises you're hearing are, the only clicking sounds mine makes before starting come from the fuel pump and that should cut off once the float chambers on the carbs are full. The only other relay in the system is the starter relay and that doesn't activate until you hit the button so you wouldn't normally hear it as the click is drowned out by the sound of the engine turning over.

[richfzs]

The only other relay in the system is the starter relay and that doesn't activate until you hit the button so you wouldn't normally hear it as the click is drowned out by the sound of the engine turning over.

Point being, with the starter relay is that when the battery is low, it reaches a stage where it doesn't hold the relay open properly, so you hear (loud and clear), the relay cycling, as described by Mr Mouse just over half way down his post.

Year round riding is only good for the battery if the type and distance of riding is right - a few miles of slow town commute, with headlight on, will not replace what the starter motor took out of the battery. Conversely, 30 mins on the motorway morning and night, and no worries.

Still not clear what the noise is when the bike is running though. As you say, the fuel pump should click off very quickly. Mobile, can you let us know if the fuel pump does stop as it should? (And sorry, if Mr Mouse should have read Ms Mouse )

[Major Rant]

Batteries are very odd things...
 
First ... the chatter from under the seat is indeed a sign that at the the battery couldn't hold more than about 6V when the starter motor inrush current happened (70 amps or so). That's either a sign that all the 6 cells were discharged or that ONE of your cells is shagged.
As a rough guide ... starter motors are designed using the "Max Power Theorem" which says that you need half EMF of the battery (EMF = Electro-Motive-Force) to appear on the starter motor to get max cranking power. That usually means that they are designed to loose 3V in the battery (so its a 9V battery when cranking) and 3V in the cable so that 6V appears on the starter motor. You can see that if the battery goes slightly high-resistance then it will drop 4-6V and you will get 6V on the battery and 3V on the motor and the relay will drop out (and then immediately re-engage as the battery voltage rises - and then do it all over again, hence the 'machine-gun' noise).
 
Second ... lead-acid batteries (of any sort) don't like to be fully discharged - they like to be at full capacity 99% of the time and have 1/2 an amp hour (5% of capacity) taken out to start the engine and then be immediately recharged. they seem to last 10 years if that's what happens all the time.
 
The worst thing you can do to a battery (aside from dropping it) is to discharge it to 10 percent and then attempt to crank the engine... they REALLY don't like that and it quite often damages the first cell that goes to 0%. Then you end up with a 10V battery and experience suggests that a 10V battery will JUST ABOUT start a fazer on a nice warm day if its fully charged. In winter it will cause the 'machine-gun' noise from under the seat.
 
The OTHER worst thing you can do to a battery is to attempt to charge it beyond 100% (14.3V)- it just makes Hydrogen and Oxygen and grows spongy oxide on the plates and reduces its capacity.
 
Gel batteries(OEM fit for FZS600) are especially fragile. AGM batteries now sold as replacements are better and hold their charge longer but they have slightly less capacity.
 
Its supposed to have a 10 Amp Hour capacity - so a fully charged battery should last about 1.5 hours driving 2X headlights. If it only lasted 15 mins then I suspect that you have either a 10V battery or one that is just simply "almost shagged".
On the other hand, it may just have been partly charged.

[Major Rant]

Error .... Error ....
 
That should say "45 mins" , not "1.5 Hours"

[Fazerider]

The only other relay in the system is the starter relay and that doesn't activate until you hit the button so you wouldn't normally hear it as the click is drowned out by the sound of the engine turning over.

Point being, with the starter relay is that when the battery is low, it reaches a stage where it doesn't hold the relay open properly, so you hear (loud and clear), the relay cycling, as described by Mr Mouse just over half way down his post.

I guess you mean "closed" rather than "open".

And only if you're pressing the starter button at the time. Since Mobile Mouse mentioned, near the top of his post, that he had previously heard this chatter while the bike was running and he was putting his gloves on, it seemed unlikely that the starter relay is involved. Even if an intermittent short was causing the starter relay to be activated, I'd expect the whirr of the motor to be more audible than the relay clicking.

[richfzs]

Oops, of course I did mean closed

Mobile Mouse is describing two separate sets of symptoms though, on different occaisions, and thats why I thought something more than just the battery being shagged.

[mobile mouse]

I'm a Mr..


I have a battery tester  so will check the voltage.
My journey to work is 8miles each way and it's made up of 1/3 is 30mph. 1/3 is 50mph and 1/3 is 70+mph.


It has just dawned on me that I have been using my heated grips recently with it being cold.
And the bike does have a Meta alarm fitted, I forgot to mention this, sorry.


I wonder if the extra drain on the battery has had a greater drain on the battery than expected.






What I find strange is that the chatter under the seat I believe is the starter relay opening/closing, went away after raising the revs.
Lower the revs and it came back. Is that the alternator charging the battery and cancelling out the low battery voltage temporary.


If I find the voltage down then I presume that I will need a new battery but will need to keep the bike on the optimate each night to keep the battery fully topped up.


I don't want to get too caught up in the charge state of the battery if I have knackered a cell then I will have to cough up for a new battery.


What would members recommend stick with the gel type or are the new type of batteries that much better.
cheers,

[mobile mouse]

No it does not report battery condition, it's an optimate 3.

[richfzs]

with alarm & grips fitted and in use, then your battery is def suspect - no way is it getting enough charge

What I find strange is that the chatter under the seat I believe is the starter relay opening/closing, went away after raising the revs.
Lower the revs and it came back. Is that the alternator charging the battery and cancelling out the low battery voltage temporary.

But I'm also puzzled by the noise when the engine is running - it shouldnt be there at all, as soon as you release the starter button, let alone stop as the revs rise and start again as they drop. Sorry realise I'm probably stating the bleeding obvious there, but just in case...

So, is it defientley the same noise? And if so, is your starter button disengaging properly? Or is the starter continually trying to "start" the engine (which would again contribute to the drain on the battery)?

Trying to rule out other possibilities, when you first turn on the ignition (before hitting the starter button), does the fuel pump do it's thing (clicking noise) for a few seconds, and then shut up?

[richfzs]

What would members recommend stick with the gel type or are the new type of batteries that much better.

As Pete (Major Rant!) said above, the gel type are v fragile - get an AGM jobby

[mobile mouse]

The only time I hear the fuel pump prime is usually Monday morning after the weekend layup.
Weekdays I don't hear it at all.
You have got me thinking about having to clean the starter button though.
One time last year after a heavy downpour I went to the bike to come home and when I turned the ignition key the engine started!
I didn't need to press the starter button.
This hasn't happened since but I wonder if something is going on inside the starter button.
How easy is it to strip the starter button down or is it a case of lots of WD40 past the button head and lots of button presses with the ignition off.


cheers,

[richfzs]

The only time I hear the fuel pump prime is usually Monday morning after the weekend layup.
Weekdays I don't hear it at all.

That would tie in pretty much with how mine behaves.

You have got me thinking about having to clean the starter button though.
One time last year after a heavy downpour I went to the bike to come home and when I turned the ignitionkey the engine started!
I didn't need to press the starter button.
This hasn't happened since but I wonder if something is going on inside the starter button.
How easy is it to strip the starter button down or is it a case of lots of WD40 past the button head and lots of button presses with the ignition off.

That must have been a shock

You can split the housing pretty easy (be gentle with the screw heads though, they're made of cheese), and get WD40 around everywhere. Be wary of pulling any of the components out though, as they're the devils job to get back in (as I found to my cost amid much swearing a couple of years back)

[richfzs]

And if you split the housing, you'll at least be able to see that all is functioning in there as it should 

[Fazerider]

I agree with richfzs, dismantling and reassembling the right hand switch unit is a fiddly job... but in this case I think it would be worth doing. With the switchgear making intermittent contact there will be arc damage to the surfaces that is best cleaned up with a fine file or emery paper and the moving parts could do with grease as a lubricant, WD40 really isn't up to either task.
Looking on the bright side, at least without the starter motor operating at random it should make life easier for the battery!

[richfzs]

agreed, WD40 will drive out any water (and lose debris if you flood enough through), but thats about it. If there is any damage on surfaces, it'll be no use.

Thinking about it though (and I hope I'm wrong), I'm a bit concerned you might have a broken piece in there that flapping around, making contact when you press the button, and randomly at other times (is the relay noise ALWAYS there, when the bike is idling?)

I do think you need to at least get the housing apart (the easy bit), and have a good investigate.

[mobile mouse]

Hi,

On way home tonight when idling at traffic lights the bike sounded like it was about to stall.
The instruments lit up ;oil light, battery light etc all came on then went off.
A bit of revs sorted everything out.

I do have a digital multimeter but didn't want to get that out just yet. But will do that at the weekend to check voltages.
So when I got home I have a battery and alternator tester like this:


http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002V9L700/ref=asc_df_B002V9L7006549713?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&tag=googlecouk06-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22206&creativeASIN=B002V9L700


I performed the following tests, with revs is possibly about 3-4k revs.

bike idling lights off                  - the tester show all 6 lights on, both the 3 battery and the 3 alternator test lights.
bike idle dipped lights on           - the tester show only 5 lights on, missing is the strong alternator output 14.0v
bike with revs dipped lights on   - the tester shows all 6 lights on.
bike idle full beam lights on        - the tester shows only 4 lights on, missing is the strong alternator output 14.0v and missing the normal alternator output 13.5v
bike with revs full beam lights on - the tester shows only 5 lights on, missing is the strong alternator output 14.0v

I am assuming that at 6k+ revs the tester would have shown all 6 light on.


I have left the bike in the garage on the optimate to top up the battery.  While at the lights the alternator does not look to be charging the battery fully also the light from the headlights dims when idling.

I will leave the bike off charge Friday night and check the battery voltage again Saturday morning.
I will have a go at cleaning the starter switch over the weekend as well and have a good look for any arcing inside.
The bike is exposed to the elements all day while at work it must take it's toll as well as the fact that I ride all year round.

cheers,

[Fazerider]

Your battery/alternator tester is a simplified voltmeter and, from those results, I don't think you need to worry about replacing the battery.
However, the whole of the wiring sounds as if it needs a thorough going over.
Disconnect the battery before you start. Then once you've sorted out the handlebar switchgear, lift the tank and open the connector housing. Unplug each of the connectors in turn. Check for signs of overheating, clean, retighten any spades that feel loose and finally spray with WD40 to keep corrosion at bay.
Check connections to the starter relay etc. are tight and don't forget the earthy side that goes to the frame and engine. Finally reconnect the battery and grease the terminals with battery grease/Vaseline.
That should chase the electrical gremlins away.
At least Yamaha use decent quality wiring, both the Kawasakis I previously owned suffered from porous insulation and I had to replace entire lengths of cable because the copper had turned to green paste inside them.

[richfzs]

Your battery/alternator tester is a simplified voltmeter and, from those results, I don't think you need to worry about replacing the battery.

You sure on that one Fazerider? The tests mobile mouse has done, were all with engine running, so surely all we've achieved (although a worthy thing to prove) is that the charging systems are all working?

I'm not saying the battery IS knackered, just that we don't know either way; and there are other things that need doing first, notably the bar swicthgear, and then the other checks you've detailed above.

My experience with my bike though, makes me think the battery probably has had its day. (I know, I said I wasn't saying the battery was knackered )

[Fazerider]

Your battery/alternator tester is a simplified voltmeter and, from those results, I don't think you need to worry about replacing the battery.

You sure on that one Fazerider? The tests mobile mouse has done, were all with engine running, so surely all we've achieved (although a worthy thing to prove) is that the charging systems are all working?

I'm not saying the battery IS knackered, just that we don't know either way; and there are other things that need doing first, notably the bar swicthgear, and then the other checks you've detailed above.

My experience with my bike though, makes me think the battery probably has had its day. (I know, I said I wasn't saying the battery was knackered )

Fair point, MM still needs to check the battery retains charge OK. But it is only 4 years old: I wouldn't expect it to be dying yet, particularly when he's found other reasons for his electrical problems.
Perhaps I'm biased because mine is still going strong despite this being its 14th winter.

[richfzs]

Perhaps I'm biased because mine is still going strong despite this being its 14th winter.

Wow, how lucky have you been

Mine have lasted 3 years on average (although guilty of buying cheap ones!). Mine doesn't get used through winter, and sits in the garage on an optimate. The battery has died, on each occaision, becuase I forgot to plug the optimate in  , and when I remembered the damage was done. Cold weather and a Meta alarm does not a happy battery make. I reckon MM's lack of decent charging run on the commute, combined with the various drains we've discussed, may have left him in a similar situation.

MM, dont let this waffle distract from your fault finding got to get that sorted, or any potential new battery will go the same way!

[mobile mouse]

Hi,


Thanks for the feedback. It's all much appreciated.
I charged the battery on the optimate last night and there were no problems today at all in either direction too and from work.


The bike is on charge again tonight but I will not put it on charge Friday night and do the voltage check Saturday morning.
I will clean the starter button and clean the connectors and grease the battery terminals as advised and then see were we are.
I will get back with the results.
Thanks again for your comments.

cheers,

[mobile mouse]

Hi,


Just a quick update.
I checked the battery voltage about 6pm today roughly 24hrs from being parked in the garage.
Voltage read 14.23v
I will check at 6pm tomorrow.
The batter NOT on charger over the weekend.

cheers,

[Major Rant]

If it reads 14.23V after 24 hours of 'resting' then your voltmeter is inaccurate...
 
Typically they read 14.3 volts (ish) when they're fully charged and still charging.
If you let them rest from that state then they gradually relax (over a few hours) to about 12.9V.
Over the next month they self-discharge down to about 12.0V.
 
No 12V battery I ever saw will maintain 14V after 24 hours of inactivity.
 
BTW ... to check your voltmeter... a brand new  Duracell 1.5V alkaline battery at room temp is about 1.56V.
(that's the simplest 'calibration' I've managed to think up over the past 10 years. Everything else relies on a 'special chip' or a calibration lab.)