Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: philshaq on 08 April 2014, 11:49:35 am
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Hi guys,
I installed a set of new EBC clutch plates last weekend, first proper ride out on the bike today and its slipping quite a bit under load. One of the steel plates had a little bluing on but nothing major.
The cable is adjusted to the correct tension at the lever 1cm of slack movement. And it bites and feels really positive on initial engagement but it slips like a b**ch at 5k and again at 9k.
Any ideas?
Thanks in advance.
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Hey phil, ill get flamed for even saying this...& ye im only really regurgitating stuff ive heard...im no mechanic.......but did you do an oil change and refill with fully synthetic by any chance????.......or car oil????....or is it semi synth 10w40 as oer normal?.
I mean chances are youve changed the clutch so must be something to do with that really but just checking the outside answer.
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Its fully synth 10w40... from memory, I'll have to check when I get home.
Have I done something really obviously wrong?!!
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Its fully synth 10w40... from memory, I'll have to check when I get home.
Have I done something really obviously wrong?!!
Well like i say i'll get flamed for even mentioning it....but i do notice posts over the years with similar circumstances whereby fully synth in these engines "could" cause slipping.....most of us use semi synth......actually there was a post where a guy basically stripped his whole bike just coz he wouldnt even consider the theory that fully synth would cause slipping....& it is a hot topic with equal supporters on both sides........i dont think it'll do any damage....wait see if theres any more suggestions re the clutch....im just saying if it was me id drain the oil thoroughly & put in 10w40 semi synth...even halfirds own if you've alreadys spent a load...i used it this time & no niticeable difference with performance.
Right im turning my back right now....prepare the flames....make it quick :b
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Looking up the subject online is also a minefield........everyone says dont use car oil.....it has additives that bike engines dont like.....lots of car oil is fully synth...so some folk reckon it is a myth that fully synth bike oil is bad.....just car fully synth in a bike.......& it isnt the case for all bikes....i think the fz1 uses fully synth motorcycle oil.
But just saying it isnt the first time ive heard a 600 owner saying this after an oil change.
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Are you still using the original clutch springs? I reckon the OE ones are a bit marginal... once they've been in there for a decade they lose enough strength that slip is inevitable. Be careful when buying aftermarket ones, some labelled 'heavy duty" are about twice the strength, that puts the clutch basket at risk as well as requiring hands like a gorilla to squeeze the lever.
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well... It would ring true with the issues being seen on the last clutch not long after an oil change (from a rather hazy memory, it was a while ago though).
I'll check the oil when I get home tonight and if it is fully synth scream (with a combination of frustration and relief) and report back!
I replaced the springs aswell fazerrider with ones from We-Moto. The originals where a bit shorter and probably done for.
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Just because you've got 1cm of slack at the lever doesn't mean the cable is adjusted correctly. Try slacking it off a bit at the lever and see if it makes a difference
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I'll happily try anything. I just moved it in the car park and it was slipping under partial load at 4k :(
Is it likely that I'll need to replace the clutch plates as well as the oil if it is down to the oil?
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I'll happily try anything. I just moved it in the car park and it was slipping under partial load at 4k :(
Is it likely that I'll need to replace the clutch plates as well as the oil if it is down to the oil?
Was it car oil buddy???...theres no shame...loads o folk use it on various bikes....but if so then id say it is the culprit......if bike oil then not quite so sure.????
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It wont be the oil. Were the springs oem?
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I'll happily try anything. I just moved it in the car park and it was slipping under partial load at 4k :(
Is it likely that I'll need to replace the clutch plates as well as the oil if it is down to the oil?
Was it car oil buddy???...theres no shame...loads o folk use it on various bikes....but if so then id say it is the culprit......if bike oil then not quite so sure.????
Hi, no I bought this oil brand;
http://goo.gl/Th2kDg (http://goo.gl/Th2kDg) - from a local garage. But can't remember if it was synth or semi. Will have to check when I get home tonight.
Here's a link to the springs;
http://goo.gl/2qj3YN (http://goo.gl/2qj3YN) - they are EBC heavy duty ones.
Iwouldn't have thought the springs were the culprit as it was doing it before at around 8-9k under hard acceleration and I've changed everything barring the clutch cable as wemoto sent me the wrong item, but its got loads of life left in the one that's on currently.
It does seem to improve when the engine warms up, but only a bit...
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Ok cool, well ill shut up about oil now....merely observations with no scientific back up.
But if the problem still persists by next oil change time id still give it a try.
Best of luck :thumbup
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Ok cool, well ill shut up about oil now....merely observations with no scientific back up.
But if the problem still persists by next oil change time id still give it a try.
Best of luck :thumbup
I don't think I can stand to ride it like this until the next oil change! If it turns out to be fully synth I've put in I'll change it to semi to check if there's any difference.
Is there anything else I should be checking as well?
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There's nothing wrong with using fully-synthetic oil in the FZS600, so long as it's suitable. It's just more expensive then the engine needs (though you can stretch the oil change interval). If it says motorcycle oil it should be fine. The oils with friction modifiers (usually molybdenum) are the ones to avoid, they usually brag about fuel economy on the carton.
If you have got moly on the plates, you can supposedly clean them up by dismantling and giving each a good scrub with paraffin.
Other possibilties causing slip are a mistake on assembly or perhaps the adjuster in the sprocket cover being wound in too tight, though I'm not sure how that could happen accidentally.
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I'd be inclined to make sure the throttle cable is adjusted correctly, starting at the bottom end first.
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There's nothing wrong with using fully-synthetic oil in the FZS600, so long as it's suitable. It's just more expensive then the engine needs (though you can stretch the oil change interval). If it says motorcycle oil it should be fine. The oils with friction modifiers (usually molybdenum) are the ones to avoid, they usually brag about fuel economy on the carton.
If you have got moly on the plates, you can supposedly clean them up by dismantling and giving each a good scrub with paraffin.
Other possibilties causing slip are a mistake on assembly or perhaps the adjuster in the sprocket cover being wound in too tight, though I'm not sure how that could happen accidentally.
Thanks fazerrider. Quick question, how would winding the clutch cable too tight cause a slipping issue under load? as I'm writing this i'm thinking that it could not be fully disengaging the clutch and thus the plates are moving under load...?
I don't think there was a way to assemble incorrectly and get it to work (of a fashion). I did put the basket on wrong first time, which caused it to juts spin rather than lock in place when I tightened the spring bolts but I realised my mistake and relocated it before tightening up again...
I'd be inclined to make sure the throttle cable is adjusted correctly, starting at the bottom end first.
Throttle cable Darrsi?
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Quick question, how would winding the clutch cable too tight cause a slipping issue under load? as I'm writing this i'm thinking that it could not be fully disengaging the clutch and thus the plates are moving under load...?
The adjuster on the sprocket cover acts on the pushrod (well, the bit that pushes on it) rather than the cable. So you could have plenty of slack on the cable and still have the clutch disengaged. I'd guess it'd be more likely that some bit of debris has found its way in at the clutch end than the adjuster has moved by itself.
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If the cable is too tight it's the same as riding with the clucth lever slightly pulled in so it'll slip
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Sorry, my bad, i meant clutch cable! :rolleyes
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If the cable is too tight it's the same as riding with the clucth lever slightly pulled in so it'll slip
Thats what I was thinking but couldn't articulate!
I'll try slackening it off a bit on the lever and see... If the clutch spring bolts were too tight would this have a similar affect?
Sorry, my bad, i meant clutch cable! :rolleyes
Thought so but thought best to check.
I'll definately check the cable adjustment on the way home tonight. fingers crossed
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Motul oil should be fine (5100 is semi-synth and 7100 is fully-synth if memory serves)
As for the cable, it is worth checking at the sprocket cover for the various points made above
Over-tightening the clutch baskets bolts shouldn't make any difference to this issue, but try not to do this as the you will snap the mounting points on the clutch basket and that's not fun. Been there, done that
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I use 'car oil' in my bike - semi synth Castrol GTX 10w40, no problems.
I also run my clutch biting point really close to the bars, as I find it comfortable. Keep playing with that clutch cable.
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Ok guys i appreciate it prob aint the oil then..........but god it still throws up a question....hear me out......phil says his last clutch was slipping just after doing an oil change.....but to be fair his memory isn't exact on some details as it was understandably a while ago...but based on the info given..
It would be very unlikely that a mechanical part would fail at exactly the same time as the oil was changed.....ie it didn't feel off before you changed the oil...you just changed it..because... it was due....then it was slipping.
He then changes the clutch.....& the oil..same oil........& it is still slipping.
So what has changed....the clutch.....what hasn't changed.....the oil.
So if the oil is the constant.....doesn't it look suspicious????
Fair enough though just coz phil was wearing his lucky kermit the frog socks on both oil changes.....i wouldn't then say that aha......it's the kermit socks as they were the constant :lol ...it's only a bit of text, it aint harming anyone...id rather speak my thoughts even if it is bollocks... :rolleyes [size=78%]..if phil changes the oil though i aint paying for it....sorry phil[/size] :b
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I had the same problem when I replaced the clutch with EBC ones some time ago, the EBC clutch plates were the wrong size, I contacted EBC and they sent me another set free of charge, same problem. I finally gave up and bought an expensive genuine set and they are now in with 40000 miles and no problem. EBC did come back to me and said there may have been a wrongly labelled batch, but at that stage I had bought the OEM ones and I took a set for the 400 instead. I have since installed those plates in the 400 and they are working perfectly
I would check the thickness of the EBC plates first before doing anything else and maybe the steel plates also.
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When you reinstalled the clutch, did you make sure everything was lined up correctly? I recently reinstalled the clutch on my engine, and Deefer (the God of 600s!) mentionned that not lining up one of the last plates properly with the markings on the engine would wause the clutch to slip. I can visualise it, but can't describe it, which probably isn't much help!
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Just for the record your oil is known good, it's the same I've used many times and the same two local yamaha dealers have used.
I seem to remember when it comes to the plates its not just as simple as interleaving then, there was two special ones that needed to be in the right position?
Andy
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Just for the record your oil is known good, it's the same I've used many times and the same two local yamaha dealers have used.
I seem to remember when it comes to the plates its not just as simple as interleaving then, there was two special ones that needed to be in the right position?
Andy
The half plate and spring washer do, yep.
Where are you, Phil? Maybe a mechanically inclined Foccer could drop round and take a peek in return for tea & bacon butties!
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I had a similar issue years ago on my first Fazer.
Clutch started slipping, so installed a new set of plates and the slipping was still there, turned out that the front sprocket cover was so gunged up with chain lube on the inside it was stopping the arm from returning fully which was causing the slipping, might be worth a check.
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Sorry for not replying yesterday guys.
You're really looking for that flaming aren't you?!
I left work after trying to adjust the clutch at the bar. To no avail, it slipped like a bugger all the way home. Got home and decided to have a look at the bottom point for adjusting the clutch, one snapped crappy screwdriver later I adjusted it and backed if off slightly.
Took it out for a spin and hey presto it's fine!
I'd forgot how bloody fast it is! Thanks for all the comments, seems the most obvious choice was the culprit.
Now back to the oil... I think it was the fact that I only had one kermit sock on that day...
I think it must have started slipping then or soon after as the clutch was nackered, coincidence rather than positive correlation.
Thanks again. I want to hear this oil debate continue! ;-)
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This thread made me laugh, thanks :rollin :rollin :rollin
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Im also a doctor
I always prescribe a cup o tea for everything. :pokefun
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Just for the record your oil is known good, it's the same I've used many times and the same two local yamaha dealers have used.
I seem to remember when it comes to the plates its not just as simple as interleaving then, there was two special ones that needed to be in the right position?
Andy
When I pulled all the plates out I stood all the old ones on the floor with the last one at the top and them matched the old friction plates up with the new ones ensuring the depths were the same placing the new friction plate on throwing the old one off the stack and putting the steel plates on from the stack. I repeated that until I had put all the new friction plates on and all the steel plates from the old stack, so they all went on in the right way.
Its definitely sorted now, I rode into work on it today and I wasn't hanging around ;) and it didn't give the slightest hint that it was going to slip, even from low speeds in top gear with the throttle fully open. It just gripped and went.
Big smiles and a lot of relief!
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Interesting subject, i've been reading it from the beginning and i had an inkling half way through that it was probably the push-rod adjustment.
I've replaced the clutch on several bikes over the years, British, Jap and Italian and i always start off adjusting from the clutch mechanism-up, the clutch lever/cable adjustment being the final one.
Glad you got it sorted.
G ; )
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If the cable is too tight it's the same as riding with the clucth lever slightly pulled in so it'll slip
My contribution to this thread is relatively feeble but noticed my clutch slips occasionally with a bit of heavy wrist action. Mate of mine bit of a bike nut suggested this solution which i might try on the basis of relative simplicity!!
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Your solution is a viable one because our local Bike Guru has come across it more than once.
the funniest he had was a fellow come into to his garage complaining about the new cable he fitted had Focced up his clutch.
He was adamant that you should not have to adjust the cable because it was a new one he had fitted. :rollin
When I called to his garage for lunch with him he was still laughing, because he actually had a job convincing him. :rolleyes