Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: jul1us on 08 February 2023, 10:24:51 pm
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Hello,
I'm a new user here, my name is Julius and I'm from Munich, Germany. Been reading a lot here and really appreciate this place.
I just got my first gen1 FZS 1000 and since it's a bit cold to right at the moment, I'm thinking about what tinkering I'll be doing.
The first thing is the Ivan MB Kit (along with the other usual mods) and a post on Facebook caught my attention.
Basically, he recommended simply rejetting instead of the Ivan Kit and also claimed:
"Drilling slide lift holes and clipping spring gives fast throttle response but usually at the expense of driveability."
So, I was wondering if there was anybody who has made this experience, and maybe felt that relaxed cruising was not possible anymore or even went back from the Ivan Kit?
For those interested, these is his entire post:
The FZS1000 carburation can be adjusted to run well in a bike with standard airbox/filter and standard exhaust or slipon (I’m using Akrapovic) without resorting to jet kits. This bike is set to run lean low down and rich up top - found after I had a fuelling check done by a respected dyno operator.
To fix the lean issue I fitted one size larger pilot jets (#17.5) set Pilot screws to 3.1/4 turns out. It’s not ideal but the stock #15 pilot jets can be used with Pilot screws set to 4.3/4 turns out.
Set float height to the standard 13mm which make fuel level the standard 3 to 4mm
Standard needles in standard position 3rd groove from top with the std 3mm nylon needle spacers are fine. Fuelling air/fuel ratio is flat so needle tapers are about right.
I’ve heard that some bikes have 2.5mm spacers? so these may need raising 0.5mm.
Fit 2 size smaller main jets to fix rich top end Main Jets - 127.5 on the outsides cyls 1 and 4, 125 on inside cyls 2 and 3.
That’s it.
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Hi Julius & welcome matey :thumbup
Re: The fuelling post.
This guys claims may or may not improve things above stock jetting?
It's his opinions after all.
Re: Ivans MB kit.
I can personally vouch that this kit does what it claims, my Gen 1 is an absolute rocket & fuelling is perfection from idle all the way to redline, way better than my injected VFR800Fi.
Ivan has spent a good few hrs testing needle profiles, jet configurations, dyno runs etc to get this MB kit to where it can't be bettered on a road bike, yes you may get slightly better results from junking the Exup system & a re-jet & a race pipe, but this would only work on a track weapon that spends all it's time in the upper ballistic rev range.
We live in the real world, Ivans MB kit is defo worth the expense & effort to install it, my Gen 1 runs a tad rich at the bottom end, bit sooty at idle, hates the choke mostly, just give it a tad of choke to fire her up from a cold motor... 4 turns out on the pilot air/fuel screw is my bikes sweet spot, anymore & she's far too rich, might even give it a try at 3.5 turn out, cos she's still a bit sooty at 4 turns out.
Service & set Exup up correctly, install an MB kit, port out the carb inlet rubbers, modify the airbox lid, piper air filter, better flowing slip on exhaust can & you've gained a good few extra BHP & a bike that has drivability from idle to redline, fuel consumption isn't that bad too, unless you ring it's neck everywhere, then you'd expect regular stops at a gas station ... I always use E5 BP Ultima or E5 Shell Nitro fuel, aint cheap, but the old girl loves to drink it, I can't source Ethanol free in my area.
DEFO 100% recommended by me & hundreds of others on this forum.
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Thank you so much, great post!
Do you also use an ignition advancer?
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If you're going to fit the Ivan's kit (recommended) I would also replace the float valve o-rings while you are at it.
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I had my bike put on the Dyno after it had the Ivans kit fitted the technician said the fuelling was "perfect".
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1599/25070060654_3d682f945d_b.jpg)
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Nope no advancer rotor as yet, bikes starts ok as is, runs mega.
Saying that though, I'm considering trying a 4 degree rotor or modifying my OEM rotor next time casing needs to come off.
As Teeccee advises, defo replace float valve seals as a minimum, there's also a fine mesh gauze filter in there too that needs a good soak in brake or EGR cleaner,.
Personally I replace all O'rings in the carbs, including float bowl seal.
Since fitting my Ivans MB kit, I've come across discussions in this & other forums about pro's & con's of drilling 1 or 2 pilot holes, 2 being as per Ivans recommendations, I have no experience of trialing another set of carbs with 1 pilot drilled, so I can't say if 1 drilled is better than 2 drilled ... best person to ask would be Falcon on this forum as he's spent god knows how many hrs ripping carbs apart & tinkering away fitting Jet kits for owners less capable, but if you've got a methodical approach, pulling carbs is pretty easy to be fair.
One thing or error I've come across fitting the MB kit, is there's no mention to strip the carb bottom ends before drilling pilot holes, to me it's common sense to fully strip the carbs 1st, tiny bits of alloy swarf will end up in the carb passages if not, also no one ever mentions separating the carbs to inspect or replace the "Air cut valve" diaphragms, only 1 can be accessed with carbs together, 3 can't so they need to be split apart, seems it's an often neglected part on these Mikuni's, bike won't run correctly without them being in good order, plus you can't fully clean out the carbs effectively with either an ultra-sonic bath or solvents, Solvents will likely damage the diaphragms, I believe they're no longer available from Yamaha, plus they'd be silly money too ... "Ali-express" is you're friend here, £15 posted from China for a set of 4 diaphragms, comes with new springs too, look identical to OEM items, same parts on ebay at £60 plus, so do yourself a favour if planning on doing the MB kit, order a full set of carb seals or "Tourmax service kit, ideally replace the float valves too, some kits come with em.
Also ensure the 2 carb vent gauze filters are spotlessly clean or you'll get poor idling or no idling, fuel starvation symptoms, these sit inline between the carbs on short hoses & vent to atmosphere above the air box (often neglected) & need a regular wash out with brake cleaner or petrol.
Most bin the "Pair" system too & block off the header tubes ('mines long gone)
Fit a set of new plugs too, older bikes seem to dislike Iridiums.
MB kit's not a cheap mod, but neither is it mega expensive, always a plentiful supply of used exhaust cans on sale on eBay or F/Book, I've done all the above & not had any probs with the carbs or the bike in general since, bit of tweaking to pilot screws may be needed but that's all.
Modifying throttle tube to 1/4 turn makes life easier too. :thumbup
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Hi Julius and welcome to the forum.
I can only endorse what the others above have said about the Ivan’s “Full Monty” or even the “Slip on” kit.
My second Gen1 I had upgraded from standard to the “Full Monty” and my current Gen1, my third, which I’ve had for ten years, came fitted with the “Slip on” kit. I then had it upgraded to the “Full Monty”.
If you have a search around on the forum, you will find somewhere, dyno graph comparisons between both versions and a standard Gen1 as well iirc?
I don’t think anyone would go back to standard from either upgrade kit. They both make such a positive difference.
The Full Monty, in my opinion, probably gives you a little sharper throttle response than the Slip on kit, but it’s still silky smooth and soo much better than many of the current crop of fuel injected euro 5 bikes.
As stated above, top gear, 25 - ***mph with no hiccups / flat spots etc, just glitch free grunt.
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Thank you so much for these incredibly detailed answers which are so helpful.
Gaz66, so you are saying cleaning the carb ultrasonic is bad?
I just bought another carb on eBay to be safe (and leave my current one untouched), it has been already cleaned ultrasonic by the seller.
There are also Tourmax repair sets included. Can you see from the photo if they include everything I need?
Photos:
https://i.imgur.com/3PBMYMw.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/3PBMYMw.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/hpeg0Qe.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/hpeg0Qe.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/cUHBJcy.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/cUHBJcy.jpg)
The diaphragm seems not included. Would you recommend this:
1. https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004439949836.html (https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004439949836.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.3.6cfejdztjdztmi&algo_pvid=0b6a7be8-ed4d-495f-9cb5-6b6db374956e&algo_exp_id=0b6a7be8-ed4d-495f-9cb5-6b6db374956e-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000029186979699%22%7D&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21EUR%2111.79%218.96%21%21%21%21%21%402100ba4716759720032122071d075c%2112000029186979699%21sea%21DE%210&curPageLogUid=nzy1F9ExAjI8)
or
2. https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004511397054.html (https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004511397054.html)
Also, the seller of the carb also wants to sell me this "Long Boy extended Fuel Screw Set": http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prody69.html (http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prody69.html)
Would you recommend that with the Ivan Kit or is it not needed?
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Some excellent advice above from guys who have done their own Full Monty installations or just commenting on the results of the kit.
In my experience, I never had any issues with swarf going into the carbs when drilling out the pilot bypass holes. It's only a tiny amount of metal being removed from the holes and the swarf comes up along the drill bit.
After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.
As for the comments in your original post describing how the standard carburation can be made better without fitting Ivan's kit, there's a huge difference between 'better' and 'perfect'. :)
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After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.
Thank you for your answer! May I ask why exactly you switched to drilling one hole and does this apply for the SO kit and MB kit?
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Ivans kit is flawless, everything is so much smother, no more bogging at 3k rpm, runing a 4 degree advancer and modified air filter cover
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After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.
Thank you for your answer! May I ask why exactly you switched to drilling one hole and does this apply for the SO kit and MB kit?
Basically, curiosity. :)
I switched because I wanted to see what the results would be just drilling one hole. I found the rear hole a little more difficult to reach and felt that the angle of attack with the pin vise caused it to enlarge a bit too much. I tried it first on my own bike with a bank of carbs bought off ebay.
My original carbs were modded with the 2-hole enlargement. The fuelling at idle was a little too rich for my liking and I didn't want to close down the mixture screws to less than 3.5 turns.
Dyno results and seat-of-the-pants feel showed no discernible difference in performance so I kept using the one-hole process thereafter. It did help with the idle fuelling and made the modding process easier, too. :)
Yes, applies to both kits.
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After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.
Julius, as a new user to this forum you may not be familiar with the history of some of the forum users.
Mike (Falcon 269) somewhat underplays his status on this forum by his words above. Search his previous threads / posts and you will find that he has done literally hundreds of Ivan’s conversions for us UK Gen1 owners over the years.
I doubt there is anyone more experienced in the advantages / disadvantages / fitting of these kits on either this forum or the UK.
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Nice post SkidT :thumbup . I certainly feel priveleged to have had "The Man" install my Ivans kit.
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Thank you so much for these incredibly detailed answers which are so helpful.
Gaz66, so you are saying cleaning the carb ultrasonic is bad?
I just bought another carb on eBay to be safe (and leave my current one untouched), it has been already cleaned ultrasonic by the seller.
There are also Tourmax repair sets included. Can you see from the photo if they include everything I need?
Photos:
[url]https://i.imgur.com/3PBMYMw.jpg[/url] ([url]https://i.imgur.com/3PBMYMw.jpg[/url])
[url]https://i.imgur.com/hpeg0Qe.jpg[/url] ([url]https://i.imgur.com/hpeg0Qe.jpg[/url])
[url]https://i.imgur.com/cUHBJcy.jpg[/url] ([url]https://i.imgur.com/cUHBJcy.jpg[/url])
The diaphragm seems not included. Would you recommend this:
1. [url]https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004439949836.html[/url] ([url]https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004439949836.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.3.6cfejdztjdztmi&algo_pvid=0b6a7be8-ed4d-495f-9cb5-6b6db374956e&algo_exp_id=0b6a7be8-ed4d-495f-9cb5-6b6db374956e-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000029186979699%22%7D&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21EUR%2111.79%218.96%21%21%21%21%21%402100ba4716759720032122071d075c%2112000029186979699%21sea%21DE%210&curPageLogUid=nzy1F9ExAjI8[/url])
or
2. [url]https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004511397054.html[/url] ([url]https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004511397054.html[/url])
Also, the seller of the carb also wants to sell me this "Long Boy extended Fuel Screw Set": [url]http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prody69.html[/url] ([url]http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prody69.html[/url])
Would you recommend that with the Ivan Kit or is it not needed?
Hi Julius ... Think you've misunderstood what I meant re: Ultrasonic cleaning.
I meant that if "Air cut diaphragms" are still installed during either solvent or Ultrasonic cleaning, the diaphragms may not survive any contact with solvent, Ultrasonic cleaning is very good in most instances, I use mine for all-sorts, but water/solvent can be trapped withing the diaphragms chamber, along with dirt etc, hence they ideally need to come out when carbs are washed out .... bit of a piss poor design by Mikuni imho but it's something I've come across over the yrs doing countless carb servicing jobs .... Yes I fully recommend buying a set of the diaphragms from Ali-express, if only as a spare set, should you discover yours are in poor condition when stripped, it's clear why they get overlooked, splitting carbs apart is a job often swerved due to it being a fiddly process, it's common sense to replace the fuel o-rings between each carb joint while they're apart, after all they all between 17-22yrs old.
I've also found out by trail & error that "Holts EGR cleaner" is awesome at cleaning carbs (externally & internally) cleans brass jets a treat, even had pilot jets remain blocked after a few sessions on the Ultrasonic bath, I also keep a few single strand guitar strings as jet un-blockers, also handy to poke thru carb galleries to ensure nothings stuck fast... just don't let this stuff come in contact with any rubber, hence a full carb strip as mentioned in my previous reply.
EGR cleaner is a good option if you don't have the use of an Ultrasonic bath.
Extended fuel screw ... is an option, as OEM screws are very hard to get at & be accurate as to how many turns out you're at with carbs in situ on the bike, never seen any on a Gen 1, but I have considered them in the past, it's a pricey option for something that rarely needs to be adjusted after a carb rebuild.
Ivans MB kit, is the way forward imho, it may be worth only drilling 1 bypass hole as Mike recommends, as I've drilled 2 & it's clearly too rich at idle & spits sooty deposits from the tailpipe, my white garage door looks like a paintball firing range from exhaust blast, note to self, "Clean the garage door ".
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If you have a search around on the forum, you will find somewhere, dyno graph comparisons between both versions and a standard Gen1 as well iirc?
This is the graph that I was referring to…….
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/fz1dyno.htm#fz1slip (http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/fz1dyno.htm#fz1slip)
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also no one ever mentions separating the carbs to inspect or replace the "Air cut valve" diaphragms, only 1 can be accessed with carbs together, 3 can't so they need to be split apart, seems it's an often neglected part on these Mikuni's, bike won't run correctly without them being in good order, plus you can't fully clean out the carbs effectively with either an ultra-sonic bath or solvents, Solvents will likely damage the diaphragms, I believe they're no longer available from Yamaha, plus they'd be silly money too ...
When inspecting the diaphragms, is it easy to see any problems at first glance?
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After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.
You also shorten the springs 12mm instead of 19mm, right?
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After doing this mod for several years, I settled on enlarging just one of the three pilot bypass holes (the middle one) and set the mixture screws to 4 turns out.
You also shorten the springs 12mm instead of 19mm, right?
Yes.
As the bikes I was working on got older, I found that the springs became slightly shorter after years under compression. If you cut the spring too short, it starts to lose control over the slide.
Cutting it to 12mm also allowed a bit more excess to bend over to the horizontal, which prevents the spring end snagging in the carb top cap.
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Thanks again for all the help here.
I bought a second carb so that I could take my time with the kit installation and also have a failsafe in case something goes wrong.
The jet kit installation went really smooth and I took my time with it. I went with drilling one hole, shortening the springs 12mm and opening the mixture screw 4 turns, as per Mike's suggestions.
The last two days I spent with installing the carb which kept me quite busy as I used the chance to do a few things at once: AIS removal, carb coolant bypass (not much to do here), installing the new carb and checking the valves.
AIS removal was the most annoying bit, having to turn the very short tap with a Knipex plier wrench which needed a lot of patience, strength and precision.
With Mike's tips, especially the one to unhook the throttle cable on the throttle side, removing the carb was much easier than expected.
I used a lashing strap to hold the airbox back.
It really pays off studying Pat and Mike's instructions meticulously and having them at hand.
I had also purchased new intake manifolds and modded them beforehand and replaced them. Pushing the carb back into these new manfolds proved to be the hardest part and even with all my power I was only able to get them in partially or rather once I had them in partially I used another lashing strap to push them in fully.
I am not finished yet and haven't started the bike yet as I went on to checking the valves after that, more about that in this thread:
https://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=27698.msg331704#msg331704 (https://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=27698.msg331704#msg331704)
[Edited to fix the tiny font problem: GrahamM - Moderator]
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Well done to get the kit installed but for others following your lead, a couple of observations to hopefully make the job less physical ... ;)
No need for lashing straps to hold the airbox back. Just tighten the top airbox retaining bolt. The key is to make sure you move the EXUP cables and breather hose from between the airbox and the frame so that you can slide it fully back in the first place. Also, make sure the rubber tank support pad on the frame cross member - the one that's zip-tied in place - hasn't rotated to a position where it fouls the airbox.
I used to remove the throttle cables at the grip end but stopped doing that after the first couple of dozen installations. It took too long. :) Instead, wind in the adjuster at the throttle end to give maximum slack for when you remove the cables at the carb pulley end. The trick here is to ease the carbs across the back of the engine and then out to the left side and forward slightly. Balance the carb bank on your knee and use both hands to remove the cable nipples from the pulley. The top one comes out really easily. The lower one requires you to rotate the pulley and use a hooked tool to slip the cable off the pulley. You might want to put something over the cam box cover to protect it from scratching in case you bang the carbs against it.
NB. I think Ivan himself moves the carbs across to the left and then pushes #3 & 4 carbs into stubs #1 & 2 to hold them while he unhooks the cables from the side. I've never tried that method, mine was just too easy for me. :)
No criticism intended here but if the carbs can be removed in 15 - 20 minutes using the right techniques and tools, it is not fundamentally a difficult task. :) Refitting takes 20 - 25 minutes, allowing for checking that everything is correctly in place and tightened properly.
Which leads me to refitting the carbs into the intake stubs. If you don't need a crowbar to get them out of the stubs, you don't need straps and levers and Lord knows what else to refit them. ;)
Use silicone lube, soap or whatever to lube the intake stubs and the airbox connector tubes. Make sure that the clamps on the intake stubs are correctly positioned and not constricting the stub.
Once you have slid the carbs across to the correct position, offer them to the intake stubs but don't push at this stage. Rotate the carbs up and down slightly until you feel them centre in all the stubs, then start to push. I found that having them angled slightly below level and tilting them upwards as I pressed them in worked best. If they don't want to go in, back off and reposition them again. Brute force is not necessary. If you have to resort to force, you're doing it the wrong way. :)
Handy hint. If you're doing this on a cold engine/cold day, use a hair dryer to warm the stubs to make them more pliable.
Nice one, Julius - good luck with the rest of your work and please let us know when it's up and running. :thumbup
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Thank you very much for your thorough reply, Mike.
It will probably be of good help to me because I don't trust those third party intake manifolds (the clamps were lose on them and I had to remove the spacer) and will mod my original ones which were in better condition than I thought.
Btw, to remove the throttle cables I didn't stick the carb into manifold one but just leaned the seat against the bike and used it as a stand which was very comfortable.
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Btw, to remove the throttle cables I didn't stick the carb into manifold one but just leaned the seat against the bike and used it as a stand which was very comfortable.
Good idea! I'll give a try next time I do one of these ... ;) :lol
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Which leads me to refitting the carbs into the intake stubs. If you don't need a crowbar to get them out of the stubs, you don't need straps and levers and Lord knows what else to refit them. ;)
Nice one, Julius - good luck with the rest of your work and please let us know when it's up and running. :thumbup
This is very true. All my problems came from these cheap knock off intake stubs which were sold as original and which I had bought in case something goes wrong with the modding. Today, I modded the original ones and then replaced them and everything fitted very nicely without the need of straps etc.
I also didn't remove the throttle cable and it all was very fast and easy now.
Hoping to have her running tomorrow. :)
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Regarding the airbox cover mod, I read in some guides that the stub should be halved and shortened but Ivan says on fz1oa that it should only be halved and not shortened.
What's the latest info on this matter?
So far I only halved it:
(https://i.imgur.com/0VJm4C1.jpg)
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Just halved is fine. :)
Carbs in/out gets easier every time you do it.
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Thanks, Mike.
Basically the only things left to be done is reinstalling the radiator and syncing the carbs (I already pre-synced them with the steel ball). Unfortunately, ist has been raining for the last couple of days.
I did everything according to your specs, set the mixture screw 4 turns out. In your experience this always works or does it sometimes need adjusting?
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Hi J,
Neat job with the airbox lid - only just seen your photo. That will work fine. :)
I'm confident that 4 turns will be good. If you put the bike on a dyno, a tuner might feel the need to make minor adjustment but really, you'd never notice the difference on the road.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts once the job is complete.
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Today started out going very smoothly. I finally had time and weather was nice so I could finally finish up (or so I thought).
After reinstalling the radiator, I started up the bike and to my great joy, it started on the first press of the starter button.
I let it warm and after pushing the choke back, I synced the carbs with the carbtune pro. It really paid of prsyncing it with the ball bearings, as it went pretty fast and easy but it also showed that syncing with ball bearing alone is not enough.
The engine sounded better and smoother than it ever has. Thanks so much for the help, Mike!
After putting everything else back together (and doing some other stuff in the house), I pushed it out of my yard and wanted to take it for a quick test drive. It started right up but after going only a few meters the engine suddenly revved up really high with out me pulling the throttle. I switched off the bike and after restarting the engine revved right back up.
I looked under the carbs and it was pretty heavily dripping from carb #2.
Going to take out the carbs in a few minutes...
The gaskets for the carb bowls (and most other gaskets and o-rings) were brand new and the carb properly closed. From where could the dripping have come?
I'm guessing it's some connected with the float but it I set it to 14mm and checked repeatedly.
Hopefully, I will find an obvious reason when taking it apart...
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Either a stuck float needle or a leaking float needle valve O-ring.
Before removing carbs, try tapping the affected carb body to see if you can shake the float loose.
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Thank you, after doing some reading last night I thought this would be the case. Very nice to have this confirmed.
I already took out the carbs yesterday, last night I was thinking, I should have tried knocking it first.
I replaced the needle valve o-rings so that can probably be ruled out...
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Did you fit replacement aftermarket float needles, Julius? If so, that might be the source of your problem. I've had to remove those from a couple of bikes when owners had used them instead of genuine Yamaha parts and suffered issues such as yours.
The spring-loaded plunger in the needle body is slightly different in length - and possibly spring pressure - which makes it hard to achieve the correct fuel level using Ivan's instructions.
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Funny you say that. I first had put those new aftermarket float needles in but then took them out again when doing the float hight as their spring tension was much higher and this made me doubt them.
Good news, everything seems to be working now.
First thing I did was measure the float hight of carb #2 and lo and behold, the height was way too low, so this was probably the reason for what happened yesterday.
I suspect how this might have happened. I set the float hight by holding the carbs slightly angled standing on it's side. It seems that when carb #2 was on the bottom side, the angle quickly became too steep so today I turned the carbs around so that #2 was at the top.
At that point, I decided to follow Pat's advice and raise the float hight from 14mm to 14.5mm and reset all the floats.
But the fun wasn't over:
After putting everything back together, I started the bike and it immediately revved up to 6000 rpms without any use of the throttle. I quickly switched it back off. I tried a few more times but it was the same. Choke made no difference.
I checked the throttle which was fine and even unhooked the throttle from the tensioner on the carb side. I turned the idle all the way down. Still the same.
At this point I was truly overcome by joy and in my mind composing my next message to you.
The only thing I could think of was the TPS. Since I had switched carbs it sure must have been way off. So I checked the TPS and the display gave me 10.000. I set it to 5000. By now the bike was turned off for a few minutes and when I turned it back on, it ran fine. I just had to set the idle back to the right setting.
I can't imagine the TPS being responsible for this behaviour (as there was also no problem yesterday) but nothing else changed. Any idea what might have happened?
It was about to rain and dinner time came close but I was able to do a 5 minute test drive and there were no issues.
Of course, it hard to really say something as the engine was cold and I didn't revv it higher than 4000 rpms but it definitely seemed more snappy (in a good way) and less "lazy" from low down. I can already say that it was definitely worth it.
Thanks so much Mike, and everybody else contributing to this thread, you were really a tremendous help! I will update again once I can do a proper assessment.
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Fingers crossed for you Julius that you’ve got it sorted this time. 👍
“Truly overcome by joy”…………I’d have still been looking for the spanners that I’d thrown. 🤗
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Well, there was a sarcastic undertone in my mind when I wrote that :D
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Little update:
Have taken two more rides and the Fazer runs like a dream. The power is always right there from the get go and it really just feels like this is the way the bike is meant to be. There is also a notable increase of power. Was able to go little faster this time and wow, so much fun.
The bike also starts much better and runs smoother.
Really happy I went for these mods.
Hopefully next week I can actually take it out of town...
Thanks again so much!
[Edited to fix the tiny font problem - GrahamM: Moderator]
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Brilliant. Well done and congratulations Julius, on having a go and finishing the project yourself, in less than ideal conditions.
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That's good news all round, Julius. Congratulations on the all the work you've done - hope summer is good where you are to let you enjoy the improvements to the max!
:)
Mike
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Little update: So far the bike has been running like a dream. It's so much fun and power is just always there! That is until today. Today, I took out the bike for an afternoon of bliss out of town. I gave it everything on the b-roads and the bike was just so sweet and smooth. Power delivery was perfect and I was feeling very appreciative.
After coming back home, it was parked for about three hours until I took it out in the evening for some errands around town. This is when I noticed some stuttering when accelerating, especially when hard accelerating. Something that has never happened before. I think it was especially around 2000 - 3000 and 5000 - 6000. Power was still there and it was fine when going steady or accelerating very smoothly. It revs up fine when I'm in neutral, just stutters under load. It feels like the engine is not getting enough gas.
It's so weird because it was just running so perfectly al the way until I was home, a few hours earlier. It would have made more sense to me, if it happened during the ride and not after.
Carbs are clean (Ivan was just installed a few month ago) and synched, spark plugs are fresh. Exup was serviced. I have only used V-Power fuel so far, so I don't think it's possible that anything gummed up, especially as it was just perfectly running in the afternoon.
Tomorrow, I will check if it's still there (probably will be, I'm guessing) and then check all the electrical connections...
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Update:
Just took it for a ride and it has become much worse. Power was fluctuating even at constant rpms and it went off a couple of times at red lights. The engine also ran rougher than usual. Standing at idle, it sometimes sounds fine and sometimes not.
I made two videos, a short one with bike running when it’s parked and one with the phone camera in my pocket during a ride so there is just audio.
Here is the one with the bike parked:
https://youtu.be/Vz4nr0bHKRI?feature=shared
And here is the ride (at 30 seconds is the first red light where it goes off a few times). Engine was already a little warm during this ride as I had already gone for a few miles:
https://youtu.be/1lC3a4UeJ2E
When I was stopped at the red light (at second 30 of the video) I also got the exup error (7000) two or three times but it was just for a second. Could all of this just be an exup problem?
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What a PITA. :(
First, I suggest assume nothing. New spark plugs can fail, cleaned carbs can still have bits of crud which get dislodged after a few hundred kms use - particularly if you've used all the power!
I'd start by pulling each plug cap in turn to see if the misfire is electrical - ie, plug, plug cap or plug lead.
If you can't pin it down to electrics, start by taking the carb tops off to check that the needles and diaphragms are OK.
Check the fuel filter.
Check the air filter and the air intake.
I don't think it's EXUP-related as a stuck/misaligned valve won't cause those symptoms.
Check electrical connections and earths. Take a close look at the multi-pin connector under the left side of the tank - the one in the rubber boot that you would have moved doing the Ivan's installation.
You are probably thinking to pull the carbs straight away but eliminate other possibilities first.
Good luck! :)
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Thank you so much for this thorough reply which gives me a direction forward.
Just to be clear (as I have never done this before, I'm quite okay at following instructions -> installing Ivan, checking valves but I lack experience) when I pull the individual spark plugs, I then just let it run or take it for a test ride? If I just let it run, how will I know if I have found the culprit?
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Do this test at idle on the centrestand. You don't need to remove the plugs. Just pull a plug cap off the plug and see if that alters the way the motor is running. It should be obvious if that cylinder stops firing. If nothing changes, however, it indicates that the cylinder is already failing to fire, so you know which one is giving you problems. :)
However, before doing any of this, remove each plug cap from the ignition lead and trim 1cm off the lead. Then screw the cap back into the lead. Reason for doing this is that over time, the core of the plug lead corrodes and fractures causing a poor contact and weak spark. With luck, this might be the reason for your misfire. You'll know soon enough ... :)
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Good news my beloved FZS is back on track!
Thank you so much for your help, Mike! I really appreciate it.
I had first shortened the ignition lead but that didn’t fix it.
After that I did a couple of things, so it’s hard to say what it was.
What I did:
- I put contact spray on the ignition leads.
- I removed the spark plugs and tested them with a volt meter.
- Some of the spark plug gaps were slightly big so I adjusted the gaps.
- The rectifier plug seemed fine but I cleaned with contact spray and a brass brush.
So, I really don’t know what it was but happy, it’s running again!
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Well done Julius for getting it sorted. Fingers crossed for many more trouble free miles.
[/size]Good to see you’re still loitering on these pages Mike, sharing your wealth of knowledge as ever. Hope you’re keeping well. 👍
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Haha, it seems I rejoiced to soon.
So now, it was mostly running perfect but there was a slight bit of stuttering a couple of times which seems to indicate that I fixed it but not 100%.
Is it perhaps possible that the spark plug caps are somehow corroded or not 100% okay?
Also, in my case the plug don't screw off from the ignition lead but can just be pulled off.
The day it went bad was a really hot day and I was keeping the revs really high so I am thinking it was caused by heat?
Also, this is a picture of the rectifier plug:
https://i.imgur.com/He0hafK.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/He0hafK.jpg)
Would it be visible if there were something wrong with it?
Edit: I just measured the resistance of the spark plug caps. All but the cap of cylinder 3 had around 9.6 kOhms, the cap of cylinder 3 had 11.6 kOhms. Could this be the reason?
Will take it for another test drive now...
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So, I took it for a test drive. The first 15 to 20 minutes it was almost perfect, only three or four misfires in total, hardly noticeable.
After that it deteriorated rapidly and now I'm back to square one.
I'm now wondering if it's actually the spark plug cap or what else it could be.
Edit: This is what someone in the German forum wrote to my initial question:
"This sounds like voltage problems with the ignition system. The exup fault could be a side effect. An exup fault will not cause the engine to stop.
I would start by investigating if the 12V is coming clean to the ignition. A simple bulb on the 12V supply side of the ignition coils may give some initial clues.
Second important thing is the starter relay and all its little switches. This can also block the ignition. To rule that out you can temporarily replace the relay with wire jumpers.
What I have also seen are cracked plastic housings of the ignition coils. There the spark jumps directly to ground. But this can only be seen in total darkness."
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Looking at this it sounds
1. like and Air leak on the intake
2. a plug cap or two gone high resistance
3. Fake NGK Spark plugs
For the air leak, check the Vacuum take off caps, the intake manifolds are seated correctly and the rubbers from the air filter are seated correctly
Thankfully the plug cap can be dismantled, they can corrode internally and the 10kohm resistor which is a carbon resistor can go high resistance. Unscrew the the plug holder in the cap and you should have the screw section the resistor and a spring. The Base the spring sits on inside the cap needs to be cleaned, I usually clean it with a long very thin sharpened screwdriver as this is the easiest option. The spring may also be corroded and needs cleaning with wire wool or something. Finally I replace the resistors with those from faulty NGK plug caps as these are wire wound and stainless ends. Thses are only 5kohm but it is not a proble as they are only to prevent interference Yes NGK plugs also suffer from internal tarnishing which can send the resistance in the high megohm range and screw up the spark. I have come across plenty of them, the latest was last Saturday on a 2002 Triumph Bonneville 800, broke it open in front of the owner to prove it. At least the NGK caps are a lot cheaper than OEM even if you need to break open a new one for the resistor. when finished cleanin off all the corrosion put them back together.
Fake NGK plugs can be difficult to detect but close inspection will show poor printing, engraving and sealing washers. Only way to avoid them is to buy from a reputable source. Very risky buying ones at knock down prices
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Update: What I had completely forgotten: I have a lithium battery with charge indicator, and it was all the way down this morning, whereupon I charged the battery for half an hour (not longer, because I wanted to test then).
After that, the Fazer ran better for about 25 minutes and then got worse again (as described above).
Now I just went down and measured the battery with the bike turned off: 13.48 volts and when I start the engine it is only 13.51 volts. Does that mean the rectifier or the stator are gone and would that also explain the engine problems?
Tomorrow I will repeat the test and rev up the engine which I wasn't able to now because of my neighbors.
Thanks, unfazed! These are great tips! Do you think that 11.6 kohm is too much for a plug cap? (One is at 11.6, the rest at 9.6)
I don't think the spark plugs can be fake as I bought them over the counter at Germanys most reputable motorcycle dealer (Louis).
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Don't you just love random faults? No, didn't think so ... ;)
With Unfazed on the case you're in the best hands but a few thoughts from me:
Plug caps shouldn't just pull off the lead. It should be a really secure, screwed-in connection. This sounds suspect to me.
Also, it sounds like you have a battery voltage drop issue - potentially not charging - which could explain why it ran fine for a short while after you boosted the battery, then started misfiring as the battery voltage dropped.
The contacts inside the rectifier plug look fine but have you inspected the cables where they enter the connector block? Look for signs of overheating or other damage.
You haven't mentioned if you checked the earth connections. Many intermittent electrical faults have their root in dodgy earths.
A useful thread on replacing the reg/rec connector block to eliminate that as a cause/future source of problems
http://www.fz1oa.com/eskortsdefectiveconnectorreplacement.shtml (http://www.fz1oa.com/eskortsdefectiveconnectorreplacement.shtml)
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Another thought occurred to me. I assume that your lithium battery has a good BMS inside to regulate the voltage going into the battery from your alternator.
I don't know much about lithium batteries on motorcycles but I am aware that they are voltage-sensitive and the charging output of older motorcycle systems isn't always compatible with them. Also, if you have any issues with low output from your alternator your battery may not be charging as it should:
https://fulbat.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2021-07-FULBAT_EN_Guidelines_Lithium_PDF.pdf
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Can I just jump in here & offer some info that you may or may not be aware of ...
Been reading this long winded thread with interest, good on ya for having a go at the carb mods, albeit you've had multiple issues along the way.
Lithium batteries need a proper full charge from a Lithium spec charger prior to use, or they can never fully function as intended, also most bikes Reg/Recs especially older bikes like our Fazers were never designed to run a lithium battery, this might be where all your gremlins lie.
For this reason, I would never use a Lithium on any of my bikes, plus they have been proven to cause fires.
Might be worth swapping out the Lithium for a fully charged lead acid battery & see if there's an improvement.
You've obviously got other gremlins to diagnose, but Mike as always has given you the heads up on what to check already.
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Thanks, Mike!
I'm actually learning a lot and do enjoy a bit of tinkering so it's not all bad. I'm also improving my bike as I will definitely replace the rectifier plug. Anderson Powerplugs are already ordered.
I will take a video of removing my plug caps tomorrow.
How do I check the earth connections, is there a thread on this already?
Thanks, Gaz66!
I did fully charge my Lithium battery with a lithium capable charger before first time using it.
Schlumpf (the creator of the multigauge) actually recommends the usage of a lithium battery for the fazer as it starts the bike much easier (and weighs less). These lithium batteries have a built in controller which manages the 14V charging current.
Quote by Schlumpf: "I've been running a LiFePO battery for many years now. They seem to cope better with the tendency of low voltages of the Fazer."
His website is quite interesting, you can read it google translated here:
https://cvieth-bplaced-net.translate.goog/motorrad.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en (https://cvieth-bplaced-net.translate.goog/motorrad.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en)
If you go on the drop down menus on left side to motorcycle -> FZS 1000 you can see the sub categories.
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Thanks, Mike!
I'm actually learning a lot and do enjoy a bit of tinkering so it's not all bad. I'm also improving my bike as I will definitely replace the rectifier plug. Anderson Powerplugs are already ordered.
I will take a video of removing my plug caps tomorrow.
Is this how I check earth:
"Put the multimeter in your lowest Ohm setting and put the black probe on the negative battery terminal.
Then probe around on all the lights negative wires whilst giving them a wiggle. You should be getting very low readings."
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Thanks, Gaz66!
I did fully charge my Lithium battery with a lithium capable charger before first time using it.
Schlumpf (the creator of the multigauge) actually recommends the usage of a lithium battery for the fazer as it starts the bike much easier (and weighs less). These lithium batteries have a built in controller which manages the 14V charging current.
Quote by Schlumpf: "I've been running a LiFePO battery for many years now. They seem to cope better with the tendency of low voltages of the Fazer."
His website is quite interesting, you can read it google translated here:
https://cvieth-bplaced-net.translate.goog/motorrad.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en (https://cvieth-bplaced-net.translate.goog/motorrad.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en)
If you go on the drop down menus on left side to motorcycle -> FZS 1000 you can see the sub categories.
Here is his electrical optimisations page :
https://cvieth-bplaced-net.translate.goog/motorrad_licht.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en (https://cvieth-bplaced-net.translate.goog/motorrad_licht.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en)
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Good morning, Julius. :)
The links you posted for Christian's site are very helpful. I wish I'd had them while I still owned my Fazer and R1. If he's happy with fitting lithium to the Fazer, that's good enough for me.
If I still had the Fazer, I think I would follow his advice to improve the wiring for the headlights and the earth connections. You might find the latter useful if you have earthing problems on your bike.
I also found his observations on the ignition lock (we usually call it the ignition switch) good, too. It reminded me of a problem I had with my Fazer which was traced to the red connector block wiring, same as in the photos in this link
https://cvieth-bplaced-net.translate.goog/motorrad_elektronik.html?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en
You can test the earth connectivity in the way you indicate but I tend to physically inspect earths as well. Remove the earth cable bolts, clean the contacts and refit. As Christian notes, there's only one earth point to the chassis through the starter motor. Make sure that is all good.
It's looking increasingly like your problem is voltage-related. Hope you find it soon!
Cheers :)
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Good Afternoon, Mike! :)
I'm a little embarrassed because it's so simple, but I found the problem. I was about to implement Christians advise about checking the the currents going into ignition coil, when I noticed that the one connector was so loose that it was wiggling around completely free. After tightening it up, I took it for a long test drive and all was well again.
https://i.imgur.com/hGVxnLr.png (https://i.imgur.com/hGVxnLr.png)
https://i.imgur.com/ELBTJJg.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/ELBTJJg.jpg)
Thank you again, and also the others, so much your help. It is really appreciated and I'm happy I learned a lot.
If you're not driving the Fazer or the R1 anymore, are you driving something else?
In addition to Christians electrical page, there is a guide in the German forum:
"Power Tweak or Relay for Ignition Switch Relief" which I can post in another thread here later on...
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Good find! That's a relief, no? As you said, a simple thing but often easy to miss when you're fault-finding. I'm very glad that it was a quick fix once you looked in the right area. Christian is an awesome source of knowledge and ideas. :)
I sold my Fazer back in 2020 and the R1 in early 2021, just before we moved back to the UK from Spain. Too much expense and hassle to ship them back, although the value of original 4XV R1s in totally standard condition - like mine was - has gone up considerably.
Currently no bike in the garage and it will probably stay that way. I guess riding in Spanish weather on empty roads spoiled me too much!
Cheers :)
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Oh, yes, it was a big relief. The moment I found that lose connection I was hoping I struck gold but also fearing that it might not be it. Then when I did the test drive full relief set in.
Overall, this really happened at the best time as I had the time to take care of it and also learned a lot about the bike's electrics during this time.
Thanks again for all the great support you have been giving me since the beginning of this thread, it has been a real life saver!
As announced here, I just posted the translated guide for the "power tweak":
https://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=27821.msg332584#new (https://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=27821.msg332584#new)
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Diagram suitable for the early models with the lights on/off on the right handle bar.
From 2003 on, the turning on of the lights is controlled by the Ignitor
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Hi. I notice the top connection to number 2/3 coil is the white wire. On my bike the top wire is red and black and the lower is white. Can anyone confirm which is correct.
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Hi guys , I'm new to the forum but I'm badly stuck for information/help any advice as my fazer 1000 2001 model is laid up :'( , took off the forks to do the seals and dust caps but I have no clips before you take off the oil seals and I've tried pulling apart the top cylinder from the bottom but I'm afraid to do damage as its not releasing to easy ,anybody come across this before, any info would be greatly appreciated.
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I use a heat gun where the seal fits.
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Have you removed the bottom bolt?
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I want to express my gratitude again to Mike and everybody here who helped me Ivanising my Fazer.
Just had a vacation in Sardinia and had a wonderful time with my Fazer!
(https://i.imgur.com/iBJgCNJ.jpg)
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Looks like you had a brilliant trip. :)
Good to hear the Fazer is running well again after the troubles you had a while ago.