FZS600 - No power, won't go faster than 50, engine not smooth

[apage16]

The silliest questions are the ones we don't ask, except maybe this one....


Are all four of the little black rubber vacuum nipple boots (tee hee, "nipple Boots") in place.


The ones you take off to balance the carbs.


I say this because i left one off last time I balanced the carbs and the bike was a pain to start, ran rough an died when I gave it gas.


If they are all in place, are they sound? i.e no cracks or splits?


I'd hate it if it was something so small!! But it's probably not. 

[Torque]

Are all four of the little black rubber vacuum nipple boots (tee hee, "nipple Boots") in place.

They are in place and they have no cracks.

I've managed to record a video:

FZS 600 - stutters

At the beginning bike it's just slightly warm and runs like crap, but check for example moment after 2m and 45s
It runs much much better, I've even lost the traction, it was slighty wet though.

In addition to previous posts I've also cleaned the underseat, ECU, coils, fuel pump, electrical connections.
I've also cleaned the carbs again with vinegar and blowed them with my newly bought 24l compressor.
Becaused I dismantled them I had to sync them again, also I changed the setting for IDLE (which is crap right now), but it does not really affect the issued I have with that bike.

Any one in Trowbridge, Bath, Bristol area is happy to have look at it / fix it  (of course for money, time is precious)?
I like working on my bike, but this is actually much more smarter than me... I am angry on myself and have totally no idea what's wrong with it.

I didn't checked the valve clearence also I did not try to replace the pickup coil (however it seems to be pointless if ohms are OK?)

[Lawrence]

This sounds pretty similar to mine, if you work it out please let us know what it was!

[darrsi]

I know you've already done it, but do another TPS check.
The fact yours was out before means it's possible that it's breaking down, especially as i notice your bike is the same mileage as mine.
Mine broke down very gradually, and i took a chance changing it, but just before i changed it the reading was correct and although the bike ran like shit it was ridable.


When i last balanced my carbs it was suggested to make sure the TPS was set before and after balancing.
So, if you had a moody TPS i'm guessing it's "possible" that the carbs maybe balanced incorrectly?


Feel free to knock that theory down if i'm talking out of turn here?
But out of sync carbs could cause the vibration and rough running i was hearing in the video couldn't it?
 

[His Dudeness]

Sounds a bit like it's running on three cylinders at the start. Try throwing some water on the headers and see if they dry at the same rate

[Fazerider]

The easiest way to prove a pickup coil is faulty is to swap it.
A resistance check will show some types of failure, but not all. It's possible for two adjacent turns to short together... this makes sod all difference to the overall resistance of the coil, but kills the pulse completely.

[JoeRock]

This sounds exactly as though your plug caps have broken down, it's what mine did. Get a new set of NGK ones off eBay for about 15 quid, unscrew the old ones, trim the leads down  a few mm for a good contact and fit the new ones. Sorted mine out completely and g had the same symptoms as you

[Torque]

This sounds exactly as though your plug caps have broken down, it's what mine did. Get a new set of NGK ones off eBay for about 15 quid, unscrew the old ones, trim the leads down  a few mm for a good contact and fit the new ones. Sorted mine out completely and g had the same symptoms as you

Of course that was the very first thing I did. There was no difference at all.


Currently I am waiting for the spare alternator wirings and pick-up coil. Will replace and see what happen.


I guess my problem is related with electrical system malfunction.
Anyway did not check the Rectifier yet (don't have even idea whow to check it), but it should not cause any problem right? It's just rectifier?

[BluprintZ]

Well, i might as well throw my tuppence into the ring.
My bike had a similar problem when it was at the dyno man's, turned out that the charging system was conflicting with the ignition system, replaced the reg/rec unit and all was well, although the problem did cause one of the cells on the battery to bulge slightly.

G ; )

[Fazerider]

Ah, that's interesting BluprintZ... the same cause as in Red98's stuttering thread. Though, if it upset the battery too it may have been been a simple failure of regulation allowing the volts to get too high for the ignition to cope.


Torque: a basic check of the reg/rect just needs a voltmeter to check the battery volts rise from 12.7 (ish) when the bike's stood overnight to 14.5 (ish) by 5000 rpm with the headlights on and doesn't rise beyond that at higher revs. That indicates a healthy battery, charging and regulation.
IIRC Red98's regulator seemed ok on that check and my guess is that it had gone into some weird oscillating mode, the simplest check for that is to swap it.

[BluprintZ]

The conflict between the charging and ignition systems was showing up on the Dyno's oscilloscope as two "tracer" lines, when there should have been only one, for the ignition system test.
That, apparently is how he sussed out that there was a conflict.
The reg/rec unit was around £50 brand new on ebay and that instantly sorted the problem, although as i mentioned, the damage to the battery cell had already been caused by this problem.

G ; )

[spider]

wow what a long thread to sort out. mine had same problem sorted in seconds. but I guess it wont fix yours.   I bought a new long d lock. took off cardboard and put that bit under my seat. it slid down between petrol tank and air filter. bike run to top speed of 50mph. pulled out cardboard and bike went ok. end of. if only yours was that simple..... or have you bought. naaa you cant be as lucky as me. ru?

[Torque]

I've replaced rectifier a week ago, but it didn't help.
Today I've replaced alternator and pick-up coil, it didn't help

Now the only thing I would like to replace are the ignition coils.

Do you think that it's better to buy used or "china" brand new? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Ignition-HT-Coil-Yamaha-FZS600-Fazer-98-03-/190614785844?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item2c6186cf34

[Lez72]

If it were me personally I would go for 2nd hand genuine ones, however, I'm sure people have used your linked item with success.

[Torque]

I've bought the brand new. It's just a coil, so I don't think it should really matter if it's genuine.
Update very soon.
Fingers crossed.

[Torque]

Ok guys. Done lots lots of things, but the stutters problem still happens.

What I've already done:
- disassembling, dismantling carbs, cleaning with detergent and blowing with compressor, put them back, then synchronized, caps (for synchro) are in place. Inlet rubbers are fine, diaphragms are fine, and moving without problems;
I've set the idle screws 2,25 turns out.

- replaced spark plugs, spark caps, bought brand new HT coils (chinese one), replaced the ECU, replaced the alternator and pick-up coil,
- measured the resistance of TPS and adjusted it, so it's on 5K rpm,

- replaced the fuel with a new one, also added some isopropyl additive (to make sure there is no water),

- sprayed all connectors, plugs, near the ECU, the alternator and pick-up coil plugs and all plugs in the compartment just under the fuel tank with the electric cleaner: http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_195717_langId_-1_categoryId_255223

- checked if choke cable it's not too tight (and choke it's not enabled as a result)

- checked and cleaned the air filter,

- bypassed the fuel filter and fuel pump to test whether bike works better (no effect at all)

The problem in short:
- When very cold, bike starts, on idle it runs like on 2-3 cylinders. Adding gas more than 1/10th results in bike starts stuttering. Adding full gas at this moment means that you won't hear any engine noise except the throttle: 'buuuuuu'. Reaching 30mph means really smart throttle play, if not your engine will die.
When you push a throttle very little like 1/20th or sth, there is chance that you will hear proper engine noise and bike running on 4 cylinders, but if you try to add more... unfortunately dies.

- When warmer (after about 1 mile), bike still runs on less than 3 cylinders, but the difference is that adding full gas don't kill it, it makes bike stutters and backfiring for 2 sec, then it accelerates with about 20-30% of it's power.

- When warm (after about 5 miles), same as above, but have somewhere around the 50% of power, also sometimes you can feel the vibrations like the only 1 cylinder does not work.

- Still warm (after about 10 miles). Bike most likely runs on 3 cylinders, but when you hit the gas carefully (not more than half) then you can hear sometimes 4 cylinders running. Sudden accelerations cause the backfire, struggling for a sec then accelerating with sometimes full power, sometimes somewhere around 70-80%.

- Still warm (after about 20 miles). Bike basically works on 4 cylinders (in the mid and high range). Idle is always like 3 cylinders running. Rare situation when it struggles to accelerate, most likely it means that you've suddenly pushed throttle from low range.

Some notes:
- Adding choke when bike stutters makes thing better, you can add little bit more gas, and skyrocket your speed (in the first stage of stutters) from 30mph to insane 40mph,
- Bike was not used for about 2 weeks and was under cover, but noticed that there is some water around the 3rd cylinder (the cylinder that's exhaust little bit colder when bike starts),
- My method of detecting how many cylinders are running it's just noise from the exhaust combined with the vibrations that you can feel on handle bar,
- When bike stays for about week, when turning on the ignition fuel pump clicks very fast for around 2-3 sec (fuel evaporates?)


Guys do you have any ideas what could be wrong?


1. Is it something to check in the ignition system except the things I've mentioned?
2. Why my bike needs as much as about 20 miles to start running in a not acceptable, but rideable level?
3. The problem seems to affect all cylinders as I can feel when bike runs on 2 cylinders, 3 and 4.
4. What else can I check?
5. Anyone knows a good garage in the Trowbridge, Bath area?

[red98]

have you read the "dyno`d today" thread.....might be worth a go 

[Wookee]

My money is on fuelling here.....as a couple have mentioned earlier - check your breather pipe. You say it only started recently and it kinda coincided with you blocking the drain pipe. Sure it's the drain pipe and not the breather?? Also, why did you need to block the drain pipe in the first place?


Make sure both are unblocked and you can blow through them.

[Torque]

have you read the "dyno`d today" thread.....might be worth a go 

I would have a go, when my bike is fixed. What's the point of going on dyno, when bike runs like ****?
I thought that dyno it's just for adjusting, tuning, not the fixing, right?

My money is on fuelling here.....as a couple have mentioned earlier - check your breather pipe. You say it only started recently and it kinda coincided with you blocking the drain pipe. Sure it's the drain pipe and not the breather?? Also, why did you need to block the drain pipe in the first place?Make sure both are unblocked and you can blow through them.

Breather pipe it's clear. Drain pipe is blocked, because of fuel leak (possibly corroded inside of the tank).

Of course that's the theory. The way I've determined which one it's the breather and which one it's the drain, was just assumption that breather pipe can't leak.

[red98]

have you read the "dyno`d today" thread.....might be worth a go 

I would have a go, when my bike is fixed. What's the point of going on dyno, when bike runs like ****?
I thought that dyno it's just for adjusting, tuning, not the fixing, right?

My money is on fuelling here.....as a couple have mentioned earlier - check your breather pipe. You say it only started recently and it kinda coincided with you blocking the drain pipe. Sure it's the drain pipe and not the breather?? Also, why did you need to block the drain pipe in the first place?Make sure both are unblocked and you can blow through them.

Breather pipe it's clear. Drain pipe is blocked, because of fuel leak (possibly corroded inside of the tank).

Of course that's the theory. The way I've determined which one it's the breather and which one it's the drain, was just assumption that breather pipe can't leak.

hi torque...sorry , i was`nt suggesting a dyno run......just having a play with the needle settings,a stab in the dark i know but might be worth a try

[Fazerider]

If adding a bit of choke helps, that really points towards mixture as the problem.
Have you checked the fuel levels in the carbs? It's a slightly fiddly job but might reveal where the fault lies. (You are correct, the few seconds clattering from the fuel pump is normal after the bike's stood for a while as it tops up the levels lost to evaporation.)
What do the plugs look like after a run?
If neither of those ideas bear fruit, it might be time to stick a compression tester on it.

[davidkent]

I'm from around the area you are, May even recognise the bike if the last 3 letters on the plate are RWO...
Unfortunately i'm not too much help on the bike scene though

[Torque]

I'm from around the area you are, May even recognise the bike if the last 3 letters on the plate are RWO...
Unfortunately i'm not too much help on the bike scene though

Hey, Yeah I am the the RWO guy also noticed another 2 red FZS600. One of them is the Charlie from Bristol, but did not meet another yet .




According to my issue I think I've found the problem:




This is raw dump from the carbs.


As a part of analysis I've added isopropanol both to the clean petrol and petrol with water. Isopropanol made the fluid homogeneous, so I think that I will add the 100ml isopropanol per tank, before I will sort my tank.

My theory is that when drain pipe is blocked the water goes into drain pipe, but it does not go outside it stays inside the drain pipe. However the drain pipe is rusted inside of the tank (because petrol can leak to it), so water goes straight to the fuel.

Unfortunately FZS600 engine does not want to run on water.

EDIT: Please do not show that photo to my girlfriend. she will kill me that I've used glass from the kitchen

[His Dudeness]

You should probably get another tank or you'll keep having the same problem

[Wookee]

Or, you could repair it with one of these kits. I just happen to have one in my garage that I bought for my classic car but found I didn't need it. If you're interested then PM me.