Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: sc0ttie on 25 March 2016, 03:58:16 pm
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HI All, today i tried to renew my clutch but since putting it all back together and starting up, my clutch does not seem to engage at all.
I followed this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQejoxdatGM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQejoxdatGM)
basically, I drained my oil, removed oil filter and fitted new oil filter. Then took clutch cover off, removed clutch springs, pulled off old pates and put in my new (soaked in oil plates). Followed the video, starting with one friction plate, then steel plate, then judder spring, then the friction plate, steel plate until all on the basket. Replaced springs with new ebc uprated ones, tightened it all up. new gasket, put clutch cover back on, Put new oil in and started it up on centre stand. With the clutch lever pulled in, in first gear the back wheel was spinning. Used a bit of throttle and pulled clutch lever in at same time, nothing happened. Put bike off the stand, slowly let the clutch lever out in first gear, nothing, the bike did not react.
I have tried the clutch lever adjustment screw both ways to max/min with no change. Also tried the screw and lock nut under the rubber cover on sprocket case, still nothing. There is good tension in the cable when clutch lever pulled in, i.e. it feels like the cable travels as it used to.
Any help or advise on what I may have done wrong or should check?
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There's been a few people on here that've cracked their pressure plates when doing the clutch and I think from stiffer springs so that's a possibility but I'd guess your plates aren't sitting quite right in the basket and the extra bit of space means the clutch won't engage. You'll have to take the cover off, take the plates out and try again. You don't have to drain the oil to do it. Just don't start the bike for a few hours and leave it on the side stand and the oil will stay in the sump and won't spill out with the cover off. Be careful doing up the bolts in the basket they snap easily. Also slacken off the cable. If it's too tight it'll slip. Maybe do that first just in case it's the cable at fault
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Yep, that happened to me too. :'(
When fitting the pressure plate you need to get it aligned correctly. Before putting the screws in, check orientation by pressing on the plate with your fingers, if you can feel the friction plates are loose you're on wrong. Pull it off, rotate it and offer it up again.
Some people seem to be lucky, but often the bottom of the wells the springs live in will fracture when tightening up the bolts with the pressure plate in the wrong position.
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Yep, that happened to me too. :'(
When fitting the pressure plate you need to get it aligned correctly. Before putting the screws in, check orientation by pressing on the plate with your fingers, if you can feel the friction plates are loose you're on wrong. Pull it off, rotate it and offer it up again.
Some people seem to be lucky, but often the bottom of the wells the springs live in will fracture when tightening up the bolts with the pressure plate in the wrong position.
When you say pressure plate, what are you referring to? are there some kind of aligning marks to show the correct position? one of the friction plates was a bit tight to push back into the basket, although i did get it fully back against the steel plate before it quite quickly, it was just more difficult than the others.
edit: just thinking is pressure plate the plate that you put the springs into and covers the friction plates? sorry if I am being a bit of a div but not done a clutch before.
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The pressure plate is the one where the 6 bolts fit into. The rear of it is castellated and must fit with the castellations on the clutch boss which is what the steel plates slot into, as Fazerider ride says remove the pressure plate and rotate it push it back in, keep doing this until it slots in properly. It is obvious when it does fit in.
Word of advice take out the upreated clutch springs and put back the old ones and buy new OEM ones.
The EBC ones are far too strong and ruin what is a nice light clutch plus they put a lot of strain on the push rod mechanism causing premature of the linkage within the sprocket cover and the clutch cable.
Be aware that there has been a few cases of EBC plates being to thin and slipping after a few hundred miles.
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Yes I will try that in the morning, i just went outside and took it off centre stand and put it on side stand so the oil should have settled to the left of the bike. Hopefully it is just the seating of the pressure plate and i can resolve this tomorrow morning. Thanks for all the advice.
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There will be no problem with the oil once it is on the side stand, might be a small drip of residual oil when you remove the cover, but nothing more. :thumbup
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would it help if i used 3 OEM springs that I took out and 3 of the EBC ones, might make it less stiff?
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I personally would not mix the springs as this would not give uneven pressure on the clutch plates. (http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/smile.gif)
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would it help if i used 3 OEM springs that I took out and 3 of the EBC ones, might make it less stiff?
Do not mix them, the standard ones are fine. If you want to replace them use OEM, which should probably be replaced when changing the plates in any case.
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This morning I tried all the above, but I could not get the clutch to work again. In desperation I put the old plates back in to try that and that also did not work. I am well and truly peed off with it now and I still cannot ride the bike as clutch does not seem to disengage cos bike just sits there in gear with engine running/being revved.
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Ok, the original yam friction plates are loaded as follows check if EBC are the same:
Friction plate,then plain plate,then anti judder spring,now fit THE FRICTION PLATE WITH THE LARGER INTERNAL DIAMETER OVER THE SPRING,then plain plate,then friction plate till all 8 of each plates are fitted.
Hope this helps.
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Did you remove anything else other than the pressure plate, the springs and the clutch plates?
Did you by any chance remove the pressure plate pushrod which looks a bit like a bolt with a washer and an oil seal on it?
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Ball bearing missing from the end of the push rod??
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There was one friction plate which is narrower that all of the others, i.e. the ring of friction material is several mm less height. That was true of the plate i took out to replace too, there was one with a smaller ring of friction material. That smaller one, if you see the video is the one that is put on after the judder spring, thats what i did. I started with friction plate, steel plate, judder spring, lower height friction plate, steel plate then carried on with friction plate etc. Nothing fell out of the clutch area, I made sure nothing else was removed or fell out.
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Can you see the pressure plate lifting when you pull in the clutch with the clutch cover off.
Did you make any adjustments to the cable or adjuster on the sprocket cover?
Did you notice the difference when yhe pressure plate was on in the right position?
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If the ball bearing was missing the clutch wouldn't 'disengage'.
Like said above, take out the 'pressure plate' and rotate it 60 degrees, see if it sits 'in' further. I had this problem with mine, I turned it a couple of times and it went flush.
Go steady tightening the springs, do them all in turn, opposites a little at a time and don't over tighten as the inner boss casting is super brittle and you'll shear off the bit the screws go into. Either go steady or do it right with a torque wrench. (unlike me, I'm an idiot!)
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Can you see the pressure plate lifting when you pull in the clutch with the clutch cover off.
Did you make any adjustments to the cable or adjuster on the sprocket cover?
Did you notice the difference when yhe pressure plate was on in the right position?
Yes I could see the plate moving in and out with the lever. I loosened the lever adjustment right down when fitting and adjusted it both ways after fitting to see if it made any difference. It didn't.
The pressure plate fit flush, I tried it in every slot position and used the position it was most flush with and which had no uneven rocking movement.
Tbh I'm thinking just get the garage to take it and do it for me now, it's stressed me out the last 2 days.
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If the ball bearing was missing the clutch wouldn't 'disengage'.
Like said above, take out the 'pressure plate' and rotate it 60 degrees, see if it sits 'in' further. I had this problem with mine, I turned it a couple of times and it went flush.
Go steady tightening the springs, do them all in turn, opposites a little at a time and don't over tighten as the inner boss casting is super brittle and you'll shear off the bit the screws go into. Either go steady or do it right with a torque wrench. (unlike me, I'm an idiot!)
I tried it in every position and used the best fitting one.
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Remove the clutch pressure plate again check the condition of the the bolt/spring holes to make sure they are not broken, if all is ok there do the following:
Remove 3 friction plates and 3 steel plates
Refit the pressure rotating it until you get the correct position. Mark this position, you will know it as the pressure plate will go in about an extra 5mm.
Remove the pressures plate and replace the steel and friction plates in the correct order.
Replace the pressure plate in the marked position and replace the springs and bolts. Tighten the bolts in a criss cross manner to 8nm
Replace the gasket and clutch cover ensuring the dowels are in place and tighten all bolts to 12Nm
Now screw the cable adjuster at the handle bar all the way. Maximum slack on the cable.
Remove the rubber bung on the Sprocket cover, undo the locknut and screw it out to the end but allowing space for the screwdriver to fit.
Hold the clutch lever in lightly and screw the adjuster in and you will feel the clutch lever moving out to its home position. when it reaches its full home position wind the adjuster screw back one one full turn. Lock it up with the locknut.
Set the final position of the clutch lever to about 5mm of play between the end of the lever and the holder,
See pic of area I am relating to (found it on the web, saved me photographing it)
http://californiascooterco.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/DSC1467adjustment.jpg (http://californiascooterco.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/DSC1467adjustment.jpg)
Let me know how you get on
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This has turned into a real nightmare and will now put me off trying home mechanics I think. Basically in the end I asked the garage to collect my bike and do my clutch for me because I was stressed with it and unable to ride to work, its my only transport. The garage have come back to say that the ball bearing is missing ( I know someone here mentioned that, but I never saw any ball bearing when I took off the old clutch plates so as far as i was concerned nothing fell out). They are saying that they may need to open the sump and see if has fallen in there and take the exhaust off etc. Are these likely scenarios or is this all getting a bit ott?
I have had a good look in my garden for a ball bearing but nothing found, that maybe due to the very high winds at the weekend though, I will never know.
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If you fix your own stuff you have to be prepared for it to go wrong the odd time when you're learning. Your mistake caused you hassle but it was only a small mistake so don't let it put you off. As far as I know the ball bearing can only fall out on the sprocket side of the engine not on the clutch side so I don't think it could have fallen into the sump.
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EDIT just read your post dudeness so I was un-aware it cannot fall out on the plate side
I was writing this as you posted
The ball baring sits on the end of the pushrod, here is a picture of mine with the pushrod whth drawn from the cable side, you can see how long it is and it gos all the way through to the other side (plate side) and has a ball baring on the end, in my case the push rod came out leaving the baring still inside, in your case when you removed everything your were at the ball baring end which sounds like it either fell out onto your patio or fell into the sump.
To save extra cost in taking the sump off I would get on my hands and knees with a good strong magnet and sweep the patio - or where ever, inch by inch the point is they have to rule out it still being in the sump so if you can find it that will save them taking the sump off.
(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9882.0;attach=7740;image)
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I'm pretty sure the ball can come out either side of the engine. If the sprocket cover's off and the long pushrod removed, the ball can come with it... likewise if you take the clutch pressure plate off, the short pushrod can come with it and the ball can be loosely attached to the end of that.
If you give your bike to someone else to mend you run the risk that they may not know what they're doing either.
As Bretty says, loss of the ball bearing would mean the clutch won't disengage... the opposite of the problem you're describing. This sounds much more as if the plate still isn't on right or that you were unlucky and it didn't survive getting tightened down in the wrong position. Did you take a good look at it or spot any broken bits of alloy in middle of the clutch plates?
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The sprocket cover was not off at all during my work on the bike, i only had the clutch plate side engine cover off. I will mention this to the mechanic tomorrow. After saturday morning and not being able to get the clutch to disengage, i put the cover back on and asked the garage to collect i that afternoon, I was just too annoyed about it at that point and decided to get a professional to do the job for me.
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Most important is buy a manual and/or download the one in the downloads section. Watching a youtube video is not the best way to go and should only be used with a manual, I am not saying not to watch them but a manual is something which shows all the pieces associated with what you are dismantling. The fellow in the youtube video you watched was neither an experienced DIYer or Mechanic. However do not let it put you off and learn from the experience
See pic below
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No I did not remove that part, i did not touch any part inside there where the bolts go, I didnt need to, I just undid the bolts removed them with the springs, then gently prised off the pressure plate and then slipped the friction plates off, slipped new ones on, screwed pressure plate back on with springs.
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The ball bearing can come out from either side, chances are is was stuck to the shorter of the 2 push rods. I would be more concerned with where it went, If it dropped down into the sump in has the potential to cause a whole load of problems
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No I did not remove that part, i did not touch any part inside there where the bolts go, I didnt need to, I just undid the bolts removed them with the springs, then gently prised off the pressure plate and then slipped the friction plates off, slipped new ones on, screwed pressure plate back on with springs.
In that case you didn't lose the ball bearing. If it's missing now then it's the garage that dropped it.
Not that the absence of ball has anything to do with the problem of no drive to the back wheel. :rolleyes
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It's a 5/16 inch diameter ball if you need to find a replacement, 93505-16006.
Do you have a magnetic sump plug? Could be stuck to it with a bit of luck, lets hope you find it either way.
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Like Fazerider said, if You did not remove the part in the middle - garage must have lost the ball. I had same problem after fitting new plates and EBC springs. Could not figure it out for ages. In the end went back to old springs (actually to 6 long ones off Thundercat - they are identical - loong story ;) ... and it worked. It seems to me that heavy duty EBC springs are too stiff.
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Having re-read your original post, if its EBC springs that you fitted the listing is wrong and the springs are too long. I had this with a customers bike. In the end I had to contact EBC and get the part reference for the correct part
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Having re-read your original post, if its EBC springs that you fitted the listing is wrong and the springs are too long. I had this with a customers bike. In the end I had to contact EBC and get the part reference for the correct part
I tried refitting the old friction plates though, with the old springs and the clutch still did not disengage. Anyway, the shop have now fitted me with EBC clutch kit, new oil and new springs, they collected my bike for me in their van last weekend. It came to £210 with labour costs, which was a bit of a shock, but they supplied the ebc kit, new oil and also got the ball bearing out of the sump with a magnet. As a lesson to myself, I need to be more careful when i attempt DIY mechanics at home and also, I need to not buy cheap unbranded parts. FYI the clutch plates I got were a kit costing £27 on ebay, which I obviously did to save money but it ended up costing me more than it would if I had got the garage to do it in the first place.
Thanks to everyone on here who tried to help.
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Glad you got it sorted. I'm unclear as to what your problem was the clutch engaging or not engaging? :(
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I could put it in gear and sit there revving the engine with the clutch lever out, no matter how i adjusted the cable, they bike did not move.
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My new clutch was slipping, so i figured i need to adjust it at the sprocket cover, so erm, i was doing that.....(btw I have adjusted the clutch cable here a few times before, when my old clutch started to slip so i know how to do that) anyway, i guess I may have unscrewed the screw/nut too much as somehow the cable has come off where it should be attached, behind the sprocket cover.
Thinking I could just take the sprocket cover off and reattach the cable, i started to take the allen bolts off the cover, got to the last allen bolt and guess what? its rounded off very badly, my attempts to get it off with a torx fitting made it even worse. Because it is in a sunken recess it is actually quite difficult to get to. After the torx bolt failed I figured I would drill the bolt head out so that i could get the sprocket cover of and reattach that cable. I could not drill it out, i tried loads of times, either my drill bits are very blunt (could be as they are old) or that is a very strong bit of stainless steel. So the allen bolt is still stuck, rounded off from drilling now the centre now as well. What can i do to get this allen bolt off? I dont have a dremel, I dont have the money for one either.
I am going to have to take a day off work to sort this out now because the bike is un-rideable once again for the 2nd time in 2 weeks!
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You are not having a good time are you.
I thought the clutch was done by a garage so why haven't they adjusted the cable properly or sounds like they didn't even test it.
Here is some info on what you will find when you get the cover off http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,16751.msg193276.html#msg193276 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,16751.msg193276.html#msg193276)
I think you need a new drill bit
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I'm not have a good time no lol. The clutch was ok the first day, it started slipping a bit the next day, then the day after that (monday) it was slipping more so decided tonight to try and adjust the cable. The garage did say they rode around on the local A road for 5 miles or so before I collected the bike to make sure clutch was ok.
I will try a new drill bit tomorrow, wilkinsons should be open, its my nearest tool store. With some luck i can drill that bolt out and then fit the cable back in place, tension it etc. I hope...
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Get the most expensive ones they do to give yourself any chance and also get a few because they may well blunt quick AND snap.
Im no engineer and hate drilling metal cause I haven't got the patience that is needed.
Someone better than me we be along soon to advise on drilling
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A picture of the bolt would be good
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To be honest, rightly or wrongly (yeah yeah, I know wrongly).. any steel Allen key bolt screwed in to aluminium, I always loosen with an impact driver. Like a screwdriver that turns when you hit it with a hammer. I just put an Allen key socket on the end and tap out. Any screws in a dissimilar material or subject to thermal variation will fuse/corrode in. The impact driver never rounds heads and will get any screw moving.
Screws can be a nightmare to get out once rounded, always start with dremel, either disc cut a slot and wind out with a screwdriver, or engrave a dimple, the drill out with progressively larger size drill bits. small bits.
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Well, 6 drill bits later and 2 trips to wilkinsons I still don't have that $&*$ bolt off. I have now called a bike shop who will collect it tomorrow for me and sort this out. I am so done with this, i took the day off work to do this lol :(
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Well, 6 drill bits later and 2 trips to wilkinsons I still don't have that $&*$ bolt off. I have now called a bike shop who will collect it tomorrow for me and sort this out. I am so done with this, i took the day off work to do this lol :(
High quality HSS left hand drill bits and reversible variable speed drill are your friends here. :thumbup
Or move closer to a foccer who is handy with tools :lol (for the twisted among you I did not say "With his his tool") :eek
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Lol I phoned a few mobile mechanics locally and they were not interested in it either, even local scooter garage said they couldn't collect it. I was buying HSS drill bits, it says on it titanium coated carbon steel for all metal alloy etc. Just not my allen bolt lol. I only have a high speed drill, will have to ask the girlfriend to get me a multi speed drill for my birthday. Anyway, not using the same bike garage i used before, its good to try a few and see how they compare I suppose. If I get told my clutch cable has stretched and that is probably why it was slipping, i will eat my hat!
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Well, 6 drill bits later and 2 trips to wilkinsons I still don't have that $&*$ bolt off.
I did tell you ----------- sorry
get a few because they may well blunt quick AND snap.
Too much speed will also blunt/burn the bit out
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A bit late now, but allen bolts are made from harder material than ordinary drill bits can cope with.
Titanium coatings on HSS are fine for making the bits look pretty and they're ok for anything up to mild steel, but you need tungsten alloy or cobalt alloy bits for drilling high carbon and stainless steels. And a slow drill.
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Must check what mine drill bits are as I have drilled a few of these bolts and stainless bolts over the years, but always with a variable speed drill at low speed. Have also drilled the case hardened sprocket shaft and tapped it to fix my sprocket nut issue.
I believe the secret is really sharp tools, lubrication and patience coupled with plenty of time
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Soi did the same plate change with the EBC spring etc, and now the gear shifter wont move at all. Just hope I havent bent anything...