CBF 1000 Charging/Battery Advice Req (CBF Forum crap)

[Frosties]

Hiya fellas,


Looking for some charging advice on my CBF and thought I'd post on this forum 'cos the CBF forum just runs round the same old crap. Reckon I'll get an impartial opinion here on a basic bike charging circuit.


The CBF1000 up until 2010 models has a well documented stator/rectifier issue which was a recall from Honda, unfortunately my bike being an '07 is outside of Honda's 7yr free fix.


The issue I have is that both the Oxford v8 heated grips and the LED spots are suffering from what appears to be a low supply voltage. The Oxfords switch off and the LEDs will only glow. The Oxfords used to work for a given period (45 mins) which gradually reduced to not operating. The spots went from running for a given period (45 mins) before they started flashing and needing turning off. The period would be shorter on the way home until the bike went onto the Optimate over night. Issue started about a week ago and went downhill pretty fast - all other electrics working fine. Both grips and spots are wired through relays of good quality which I've checked ok but replaced anyway.


The battery at standstill post Optimate measures 12.7Vdc going to 13.7Vdc at idle and running to 14.1Vdc at 5k rpm. After riding home and pre Optimate charge the voltages are the same. No problem it would appear, and these voltages are also at the Oxford terminals and the LED spot light terminals.


However, the Oxfords will only switch on for 2 seconds before flashing a "low voltage" yellow lamp and switching off. The LED spots will only glow gently and not fully power up. All the time the supply voltages are good.


Now this is basics I know but doesn't make sense - sufficient voltage = bloody work then!! However, before I splash out £300 on a new stator, rectifier/regulator and battery I'm just wondering if a poor battery can show sufficient voltage but have insufficient amps available??


Has anyone had anything similar?


I know a digital multimeter can show 240Vac with bugger all current behind it due to the low impedence (resistence) of a Digi Multi Meter.


Anyone else suspect it could just be the battery having voltage but no balls so to speak (no idea how old it is - Model YUASA YTZ10S)


As always, any advice much appreciated 






 

[unfazed]

Have you checked the AC voltage from the stator, between the wires coil wires not wire to earth? There is no earth connection in the stator

Many test the resistance of the stator coils and assume the stator is fine because the measurements are correct. I have seen mechanics replace regulator/rectifiers when the problem was the stator insulation breaking down load.

The insulation can break down under load and end up giving out only a couple volts ac instead of about 30v AC at idle and rise to over 60v AC maybe up to 90v AC  at around 5000revs.

Unfortunately I do not know the measurements for the CBF.

Do the CBFs also suffer from cracked rotors like some of the other Hondas?

Locate the plug coming from the stator, there will probably be 3 wires of the same colour in it. Set your meter to over 100v AC. Remember you are check for AC voltage no DCPush the meter leads into the back of the connectorsstart the bike and check the voltage now rev it to about 5000 and check the voltage again.
This needs to be done 3 time to test the 3 coils.

Now do it with the heated grips switched on. If possible do it when the bike is warm as the insulation is more like to be a problem then

[Frosties]

Have you checked the AC voltage from the stator, between the wires coil wires not wire to earth? There is no earth connection in the stator

Many test the resistance of the stator coils and assume the stator is fine because the measurements are correct. I have seen mechanics replace regulator/rectifiers when the problem was the stator insulation breaking down load.

The insulation can break down under load and end up giving out only a couple volts ac instead of about 30v AC at idle and rise to over 60v AC maybe up to 90v AC  at around 5000revs.

Unfortunately I do not know the measurements for the CBF.

Do the CBFs also suffer from cracked rotors like some of the other Hondas?

Locate the plug coming from the stator, there will probably be 3 wires of the same colour in it. Set your meter to over 100v AC. Remember you are check for AC voltage no DCPush the meter leads into the back of the connectorsstart the bike and check the voltage now rev it to about 5000 and check the voltage again.
This needs to be done 3 time to test the 3 coils.

Now do it with the heated grips switched on. If possible do it when the bike is warm as the insulation is more like to be a problem then

All of the above is a bloody good shout and loaded with good info - will check it tomorrow. Top bloke 


Piccy below of typical CBF failure

[unfazed]

Same as the some of the Fireblades. 

Tested one of them last year and was measuring 2v AC at idle.

Let me know how you get on

[Fazerider]

... I'm just wondering if a poor battery can show sufficient voltage but have insufficient amps available??

Yes, a  battery that's developed a high impedance can give a good voltage reading when no current is being drawn.
With the engine off and Optimate disconnected give it a decent load (turn on the headlights) and check what the voltage on the terminals is then. If it stays above 12.4V for 5 minutes then it's probably healthy… in which case the charging circuit is probably OK too.

If the battery is good it sounds more like a localised problem with the wiring for the spots and hot grips if those are the only things showing symptoms of low voltage.
Check for corroded/loose connectors and insulation that looks as if it's got hot. Don't forget the return side of the circuit too: you might have a decent 12.7v supplied to the grips and spots, but the earthy side might be floating at 6v.

[Frosties]

Same as the some of the Fireblades. 

Tested one of them last year and was measuring 2v AC at idle.

Let me know how you get on

Same engine as the blade but detuned.

... I'm just wondering if a poor battery can show sufficient voltage but have insufficient amps available??

Yes, a  battery that's developed a high impedance can give a good voltage reading when no current is being drawn.
With the engine off and Optimate disconnected give it a decent load (turn on the headlights) and check what the voltage on the terminals is then. If it stays above 12.4V for 5 minutes then it's probably healthy… in which case the charging circuit is probably OK too.

If the battery is good it sounds more like a localised problem with the wiring for the spots and hot grips if those are the only things showing symptoms of low voltage.
Check for corroded/loose connectors (3 month old install with weatherproof industrial connections) and insulation that looks as if it's got hot. Don't forget the return side of the circuit too: you might have a decent 12.7v supplied to the grips and spots, but the earthy side might be floating at 6v.

Another good shout. Will check tomorrow 

[Val]

you also can try battery load test:

Starting Load Test

• Adjust voltmeter to DC volts (20 volt range).
• Place voltmeter leads to the battery terminals. (positive to positive and negative to negative)
• Watch the voltmeter as you start your motorcycle.
• If the voltage drops below 9.5 volts, the battery has very low capacity and should be replaced.

[Frosties]

Cheers Val, another good shout 


Like I thought - this site knocks the CBF forum for 6 - never selling my Fazer 

[Gnasher]

I would first challenge Honda's 7yr and your out rule, they sold something that not fit for purpose just because the original owner didn't bother or wasn't told shouldn't mean they can just walk away from the problem even you pay a small percentage.


Try and find a second hand unit, or find out what other Honda (or other) uses the same up rated unit (or better) that will fit.


   

[windscreenman]

I would look at it being a dead cell in the battery shows volts but no guts I changed my cbf battery for a motobat gel  battery higher amps 
Put same on my steamer too and now the fazer 1000
Best £59 fix 
Get a battery state meter off flee bay to monitor battery and charging circut my 06 was only funny till I changed the battery that was a yuasa too
Sold to a mate who's toured Europe on it twice and been no bother

[Frosties]

Finally found the time to get stuck into this.


Stator checked all ok for voltages and winding resistance.
Rectifier checked all ok for voltage and loading.


Eventually went back to the Finder relays which I'd already replaced once......... so changed them and the bases again - no joy.


Fitted some heavier duty Omron control panel ones I nabbed from site and hey presto, all good. Went into garage and promptly binned all my stock of 12 vdc Finder relays I've used for years on bikes and cars. Never using these again.


Thanks for all the advice fellas, much appreciated.

[unfazed]

What are you using those relays for????

[Frosties]

What are you using those relays for????

Right now i'm using them to throw at Pigeons. Oxford grips rated @4A draw, Finder 40.51 rated @10A on contacts - never had an issue in years.

[unfazed]

The 40.51s are for switching AC (contacts are rated for AC) and would not be suitable for a 4 amp DC arc when switching.

It would be best to use automotive relays as they are designed for DC switching.

What Omorons are you using, best for automotive use are the Omoron G8H or G8J types.

[Frosties]

I Know the Finders are primarily for AC but used them for years on DC with no issues.....until now.


Omron G2RL-1A4-E relays are now fitted  I just prefer the separate relay/base option - gives me more mounting options.

[unfazed]

Plus they are sealed

[Frosties]

Which means I can't see the contacts moving.......

[unfazed]

You know the old story, What you can't see won't trouble you