Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: darrsi on 03 March 2013, 05:22:49 pm
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Over the last few days i've had to persevere with the bike to get it to warm up, mainly at the initial start up.
It's very throaty after hitting the button and i have to coax it in to life with the tiniest amount of throttle.
Once it's cleared it's throat i let it tick over for a couple of minutes then i'll warm it up by riding, but even that takes another 5 minutes.
The thing that's confusing me is that it's been fine all over winter with the really cold weather, but today for instance was way warmer than we've been used to and it's been starting like a pig.
The battery's okay, no issues there, and once it's properly warmed up it behaves absolutely fine.
Got a newish K&N fitted, and the bike's used 5 to 7 days a week so it's not sitting about.
For the record i initially started the bike today with a Moto GP end can on, but then put my old Quill race can back on and went for a spin and everything felt good.
Any thoughts please ?
Just read this on another forum:
Re: Engine Rough at Start Up
Update - funny thing....after doing a valve adjustment on my ST1100....found 2 valves were on the tight side...at the limit but not below the limit....guess what ? Two shims later they are all back in exact specs now and NO more rough start-ups. Only did it on very cold days and for very short time. Passing this on as a tip to check your valve clearances if you are having these symptoms.
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Hi Darrsi, can't really add any advise outside of checking the valves as your update says, I did have a question though, do you start with or without the choke? I use mine through the working week and always start it on the choke for 30 sec.
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I've never used the choke, never needed to.
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ah right. Might be worth a bash to see if it clears its throat a bit quicker.
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I'll try it in the morning, too much air would aim at not enough fuel or an air leak, although once it warmed up it ran perfectly well so that doesn't sound too likely in theory??
I've had an air leak before via a carb intake rubber not being refitted properly and it causes hesitation on hard acceleration, it wasn't doing that today!
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Yeah you're right, doesn't make much sense if its working fine when its warmed up. What makes you think its getting too much air?
If there is something a-miss then starting on the choke might just hide the problem rather than cure it and get it back to starting as you are used to, which I'm guessing you're aiming for.
I use the choke out of habit so tomorrow will try it without!
Sorry I can't be of more use.
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I was just explaining an air leak as an example, and what happens.
I'd imagine as soon as i touch the choke the engine will just cut out, at a guess, i'll let you know tomorrow?
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sounds good.
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Bike started on the button this morning, and it was much colder than yesterday, then it got a little bit throaty so i tried the choke and it just cut out straight away, which i expected.
It felt a tiny bit better than yesterday but i'm still not convinced that it's quite right, although again once warmed up it was fine?
Definitely way too early to even consider worrying about the K&N filter, so i'm still a bit stumped as it never used to play up in the mornings at all?
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i tried the choke and it just cut out straight away
What I find with mine is it will fire up without choke absolutely fine, but as I put the choke on to hold an idle while it warms it will die unless I give it some teasing on the throttle, couple of gentle blips norm does it and aim straight tor 3/4 of the choke, then it will sit there warming up fine and I can back the choke off by the time I get out of the drive.
Strange how it dies as the choke is applied, I will have to see if I can find details of the choke circuit, It's fine going off the choke slowly.
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I've never needed to use the choke before so i wasn't really expecting that to help, mine's normally the same, a few blips then it would tick over on it's own no problem at all.
And it doesn't normally take as long to warm up which is why it's so noticeable to me.
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Just check all the basic stuff first. No harm checking the valve clearance while you're at it but I'd say if it was a valve clearance problem it would be more of a gradual problem rather than it's fine one day and then the next day it won't start properly
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semi blocked pilot jets in the carbs ;)
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@His Dudeness, i've never personally checked valve clearances myself before, is that a pig of a job to do?
@red98, if there was a blockage in the carbs would it not run roughly all the time, even after warm up?
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I don't think it's a clearance problem but if you want to check them it's handy enough. The service manual goes through it quite well so have a read of that first. Getting the cam cover off can be a bit fiddly because it hits the thermostat. You can remove the thermostat but you'll have to drain the coolant or you can just unbolt it and you might be able to get the cover out with the thermostat loose. Then take out the plugs and remove the alternator cover. Then rotate the engine and line up the marks are per the manual so you're on the compression stroke on cylinder 1. Check your clearances and rotate the engine again. It's all in the service manual. You'll need a set of feeler gauges and the engine has to be totally cold. The only place you can go wrong is when you're loosening and tightening the cam cover bolts. If you make a balls of it don't blame me :lol
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two sets of jets in the carbs,pilot jets take care of the slow running,main jets then take over at anything above tick over
hey dude...ive managed to get the cover off before without upsetting the thermostat....it is a bit tight though :D
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two sets of jets in the carbs,pilot jets take care of the slow running,main jets then take over at anything above tick over
hey dude...ive managed to get the cover off before without upsetting the thermostat....it is a bit tight though :D
;) bit of swearing will probably get it out :lol
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I don't think it's a clearance problem but if you want to check them it's handy enough. The service manual goes through it quite well so have a read of that first. Getting the cam cover off can be a bit fiddly because it hits the thermostat. You can remove the thermostat but you'll have to drain the coolant or you can just unbolt it and you might be able to get the cover out with the thermostat loose. Then take out the plugs and remove the alternator cover. Then rotate the engine and line up the marks are per the manual so you're on the compression stroke on cylinder 1. Check your clearances and rotate the engine again. It's all in the service manual. You'll need a set of feeler gauges and the engine has to be totally cold. The only place you can go wrong is when you're loosening and tightening the cam cover bolts. If you make a balls of it don't blame me :lol
Probably why i've never done it before, the problem i have is being on call for work at weekends so i can't just start taking the bike to bits in case i have to go to work straight away. I normally have to borrow a bike from my mechanic and let him do the fiddly stuff.
I just checked and the valve clearances were checked 14000 miles ago, not sure how often they should be checked.
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were they checked or adjusted 14000 miles ago :)
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were they checked or adjusted 14000 miles ago :)
Don't actually know, 'cos i had a few things done to it at the same time?
The weather's gonna warm up for a whole TWO DAYS so i'll be interested to see if that makes any difference at all in the mornings as well. :sun
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Interesting comments about checking valve clearance and adjusting, convinced me I can do it when the bike comes off the road in a couple of weeks.
One final point on the choke, you should always put the choke on before starting,otherwise the engine will flood.
I know that isn't darrsi's question, but thought it worth mentioning. Good luck finding a cure, carb jets sounds like a good call. Keep us updated.
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Bike started on the button this morning, and it was much colder than yesterday, then it got a little bit throaty so i tried the choke and it just cut out straight away
Both of mine have done this - I usually have to hold the revs up a bit, and slowly apply the choke until it holds the revs itself. After that its fine :)
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My Fazer doesn't ever start from cold without the choke. If I do try it the bike is not at all happy to the point where I remember to turn the choke on. It literally takes 30s-60s before I can turn the choke off and rev without the engine dying.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/tech/using-choke-when-starting-up-51636 (http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/tech/using-choke-when-starting-up-51636)
"When the engine is cold some of the fuel it gets from the carburettor condenses on the walls of the combustion chamber, so the mixture becomes too lean. The choke compensates for that. It will also open the throttle slightly, compensating for the fact that the engine needs more force to turn, because the oil is cold."
Can you tell me what RPM's the engine runs at idle ?
Does it run roughly ?
When it first starts, if you give it throttle does the engine die ?
My personal opinion is that you should always have the choke on (when the engine is cold) before pressing the starter and that it should run for a minute or so before turning the choke off, testing the throttle, and finally pulling off (allowing the heated grips to warm up too ;-)
Just my uneducated 2p.
Simon
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I just wonder if the idle is too high, that's all.
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Idle's about 1200rpm, and when warm is steady as a rock.
The main point of all this is that i've never had to use the choke before, and it's always started first time, and then ticked over quite happily after a quick blip of the throttle.
But within the last week it's suddenly become throaty on start up, which for my bike is out of the ordinary, so i'm just wondering why, especially as the weather is warmer now and it didn't misbehave at all during the really cold weather?
My previous bikes tended to prefer cold weather, whereas the Fazer thrives on warmer climates, which makes it even more puzzling.
Don't get me wrong, it starts, and eventually warms up and runs fine with a bit of nursing, it's not like i can't start it or anything, but there's always a reason when something changes and me being a fussy sod would like to know why! :)
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Perhaps before hand it had a problem and now its fixed :lol
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Perhaps before hand it had a problem and now its fixed :lol
In that case i need to find out how to make it go wrong again? :b
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It's because you've been using that activ8 stuff, you've blocked the farkle gland...
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It's because you've been using that activ8 stuff, you've blocked the farkle gland...
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I know i'm gonna open the can of worms up again by saying this, but i reckon that is part of the reason why the bike has always started so well previously, less friction and all that.
But no doubt you'll all be queuing up to knock that theory down :lol
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Why don't you try starting it from cold tomorrow with the choke on and see what it does? Have the choke on before you start the bike for the first time though.
A motorbike is designed to use choke when it's cold. The only time it wouldn't be needed is possibly the height of summer or warmer climates.
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:agree what Simon said
I've always used choke on to start mine, all the time since it was new.
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I'd also agree with the other lads. If you never had to use the choke in any conditions that would suggest that the bike was running rich. Did you say you put a new air filter in recently? Maybe your old filter was causing a bit of a restriction to air flow and that was causing the bike to run on the rich side and now that you've changed to the new filter you've got more air flow so you need the choke on cold start ups which is the way it should be. That's all guess work though.
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I'd also agree with the other lads. If you never had to use the choke in any conditions that would suggest that the bike was running rich. Did you say you put a new air filter in recently? Maybe your old filter was causing a bit of a restriction to air flow and that was causing the bike to run on the rich side and now that you've changed to the new filter you've got more air flow so you need the choke on cold start ups which is the way it should be. That's all guess work though.
No, that was a few months back, this has happened within the last week.
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I know i'm gonna open the can of worms up again by saying this, but i reckon that is part of the reason why the bike has always started so well previously, less friction and all that.
But no doubt you'll all be queuing up to knock that theory down :lol
Ok, I'll bite :)
Friction has nothing to do with the rough idle issue you have now. If it did, the bike either wouldn't turn over on the button, or if friction was actually causing it to stutter / idle roughly, you'd have so much damage going on you'd need a re- bore or a new engine.
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I know i'm gonna open the can of worms up again by saying this, but i reckon that is part of the reason why the bike has always started so well previously, less friction and all that.
But no doubt you'll all be queuing up to knock that theory down :lol
Ok, I'll bite :)
Friction has nothing to do with the rough idle issue you have now. If it did, the bike either wouldn't turn over on the button, or if friction was actually causing it to stutter / idle roughly, you'd have so much damage going on you'd need a re- bore or a new engine.
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I know........ :rollin
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I hate fishing, it's a stupid sport ;)
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No, that was a few months back, this has happened within the last week.
Damn! I thought that was a good theory :lol Here rich I reckon this is all a ruse! He's fabricated this whole story so he can come on here and post about some magic elixir that gives perfect starts every time. Funnily enough it will be called Startsi which is suspiciously close to darrsi and we'll have to pay him directly to get a bottle :lol
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Sounded good to me, dudeness :thumbup
I'll buy a bottle of that elixir tho, sounds like good stuff :rollin
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Sounded good to me, dudeness :thumbup
I'll buy a bottle of that elixir tho, sounds like good stuff :rollin
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You'll have to PM darrsi about it :lol
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ooooooooooo...i`ll have two bottles...one for the bike and one for me,swmbo will be over the moon :rollin :rollin
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Only joking with you darrsi! :lol
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Drain the float bowls and let it run through for about 30 secs. Yo could have water in the float bowls.
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worth trying I guess - but if its running fine once warmed up, I don't think that's the problem? It wouldn't go away as the bike warmed up?
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Drain the float bowls and let it run through for about 30 secs. Yo could have water in the float bowls.
Water from where, you mean in the fuel?
I've never touched the carbs before to be honest, it's just one of those things i know i'll mess up and as the bike is my only transport i really can't be doing with that!
I s'pose i could add some alcohol to the tank, that'll burn off any moisture in the fuel. :b
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Darrsi, at the bottom of each float bowl there's a wee drain screw. Picture 7.12 in the Haynes manual. Open each one in turn, don't worry, you can't foc up the carbon setting with this (unless you get the wrong screw :lol) and the picture is pretty clear.
As I say, not convinced it's the problem tho... Is it idling properly once warm?
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Darrsi, at the bottom of each float bowl there's a wee drain screw. Picture 7.12 in the Haynes manual. Open each one in turn, don't worry, you can't foc up the carbon setting with this (unless you get the wrong screw :lol ) and the picture is pretty clear.
As I say, not convinced it's the problem tho... Is it idling properly once warm?
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Yeah, very stable, it's always been good on this bike.
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attention: complete novice talking about stuff he knows nothing about
It might be worth checking all the hoses and rubbers for perishing/cracks/leaks too. Just looking at this post here http://yamahaclub.com/forums/topic/8243-yamaha-600-fazer/ (http://yamahaclub.com/forums/topic/8243-yamaha-600-fazer/) which has no relevance but has a couple of ideas in it.
I'm just trying to think of things that would spontaneously happen through age/wear since nothing on the bike has changed recently.
I'm assuming the bike is garaged or is it stored outside ?
Simon
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Garaged at night.
If the weather's bad when i'm at work i have a place to shelter it, mainly in heavy rain, but i generally park outside reception which strangely enough keeps it in the shade for the whole day in summer, which is handy as well.
It's not an air leak as my idle would be ropey and acceleration would hesitate and splutter.
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When the bike is standing overnight any water in the petrol will sink to the bottom of the float bowls and when it is running for a while moves around due to the flow of petrol through the carbs, thus giving the indication of a starting problem like Darrsi describes. I am not saying it is the problem but by draining the bowls it rules out one possible cause of the problem.
The water can also lodge in the fuel filter since the filter lies on its side it holds it. I have changed many a fuel filter and usually drain it out of curiosity into a glass and have seen the water converge at the bottom overnight, especially prone on bikes which are used in all weathers and power hosed. Last Saturday I serviced my own 600 and 1000 and the 600 had water in the filter and the 1000 had water in the bowls and filters. The 1000 was awkward to start and would not pick up cleanly on the choke for the first 30 seconds or so, but was also misfiring at 11500 revs. Draining the bowls and changing the filter solved both problems.
I usually drain my tanks completely every 2 years to remove any water which may lodge in the bottom of the tank, which is where most tanks start to rust.
One of the first things I do when I get any bike with a starting or rough running issue is drain the carbs and leave the fuel run through for 20 -30 seconds. You would be amazed of how many it fixes
Darrsi, when draining the bowls just make sure you have the correct size head on the screwdriver for the drain screws and do not remove them completely or overtighten them. It will not effect anything else on the carbs, just cost you about a 50p worth of fuel.
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Okay, thanks very much for that info, that's very informative for me, although i probably won't be able to play about with it until Saturday morning now so bear with me.
I'm presuming petrol would float on water, so water should flow out first if the drainage screws are at the lowest point?
Also, you say don't take the screws right out, how do they drain with the screws still in then?
Excuse my ignorance, but me and the carbs have never met yet. :)
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Cheers unfazed, interesting stuff.
Darrsi, loosening the screw is like opening a valve, and the fuel drain out a different hole, not the hole the screw itself turns through. Difficult to explain, but it'll be obvious when you look at the bottom of the cards...
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A picture tells a thousand words :thumbup
You can push a piece of transparent tube onto the protruding part of the drain hole and drain it into a glass jar if your really fussy, awkward to push on Carb number 3 due to the proximity of the starter motor.
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Oh that's great, i honestly didn't know those drainage points even existed, i'm always learning every day at work but learning stuff about the bike seems just that little bit more rewarding.
I'll see if i can find some plastic tubing at work to do things properly rather than start squirting petrol everywhere. :smokin
Theoretically this is all sounding like a very possible cause of my woes, so i'll probably wait until Saturday to do it so the bike can sit still overnight, 'cos i presume once you start it then any moisture will be spread all over the place, i must remember to not start it to get it out of the garage though!
And you're right, the pictures do speak a thousand words, very helpful, cheers. :)
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I just hold a shot glass under the drain hole and turn the screw - don't need to poke anything, seems to be the perfect for the about the amount of Petrol which comes out plus it fits perfectly under the carbs.
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I use a long tube running into a white dish situated off the bike. I use a white dish as it makes it easier to see any dirt that might be in the petrol too.
Using a tube is less akward that having something put under it like a glass shot especially if you want to drain and flush through a lot more than whats in the float bowl. I got dirty petrol that was so fine that it by-passed the filter on a Bandit 600. There was a lot of it there and it didn't help matters that the bike was sitting idle for 3 months after a crash. It took almost 200-300mls of drainage off of each carb before coming clean again. With a tube, I could just let it run off freely into the dish while inspecting it until the petrol was clean.
And of course, it goes without saying that don't forget to perform this task when the engine is cold to avoid buring your hands off a hot engine or spilling any petrol on it..........and NO :smokin !!!!
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Right, this morning i tried the full choke method and sure enough it revved into life but while it was revving it was still spluttering for a minute, so this idea of moisture contamination is sounding much more of a good thing to me.
It wasn't your average cold start struggle, it was a similar sound to when you get carb icing.
Then a minute later it was clear and purring quite happily.
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my monies still on pilot jets.....worth draining carbs first though ;)
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Right, this morning i tried the full choke method and sure enough it revved into life but while it was revving it was still spluttering for a minute, so this idea of moisture contamination is sounding much more of a good thing to me.
It wasn't your average cold start struggle, it was a similar sound to when you get carb icing.
Then a minute later it was clear and purring quite happily.
Definitely worth trying a carb drain :-). Glad it's somewhat improved. It may be worth trying half choke tomorrow if it doesn't seem happy.
I would really recommend you use the choke from cold every time as the bikes are designed for it. It only takes 30 seconds so there isn't any reason not to.
Simon
:)
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my monies still on pilot jets.....worth draining carbs first though ;)
Why would it be that, when it's idling fine once warm?
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my monies still on pilot jets.....worth draining carbs first though ;)
I wouldn't have thought it was the pilot jets. According to this:http://www.dansmc.com/carbs2.htm it would be the pilot/idle jet. But since it goes away when it's warm it would be unlikely?
I'd have thought it would be a choke/richness problem but anything where you could get condensation going from cold to hot and/or water would be a fair bet too.
please let me know if you want any more uneducated guesswork, I'm always up for talking knowledgeably about things I'm Ignorant of :-)
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I've no doubt that those drain screws are made of cheese, so i presume that's why it was suggested not to overtighten them, not that i'd do such a terrible thing? :D
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my monies still on pilot jets.....worth draining carbs first though ;)
I wouldn't have thought it was the pilot jets. According to this:http://www.dansmc.com/carbs2.htm it would be the pilot/idle jet. But since it goes away when it's warm it would be unlikely?
I'd have thought it would be a choke/richness problem but anything where you could get condensation going from cold to hot and/or water would be a fair bet too.
please let me know if you want any more uneducated guesswork, I'm always up for talking knowledgeably about things I'm Ignorant of :-)
mmmmmm....yes good point about starting ok when warm :) pilot/idle jets work on tick over and then the main jets take over.......so cold starting problem and no recent changes to bike,i can see why you think contaminated fuel.....very interested to see the outcome of this one ;)
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Don't forget to drain the fuel filter also.
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I gave the bike a drink yesterday, i put some 99% Isopropyl Alcohol in the fuel tank, if there is any water in the tank it should bind with it then get burnt off as fuel. :b
I'll still drain it on Saturday morning anyway just in case there's a pool of it in the bottom of the carbs, but the I.A. can be pretty effective on it's own.
Obviously i will need to have the bike sitting still over night to try that out so it can settle properly.
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It will not matter a lot when you drain, but to determine if it is the problem then draining prior to starting is best.
Not a great fan of using Isopropyl as it can damage some types of fuel lines. I prefer to use the old fashioned way of draining then I know the water is gone.
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I'll be so happy if i can wring some water out of the carbs, firstly 'cos it's a simple fix that i didn't know about, and secondly 'cos it means there was a problem that wasn't there before and i wasn't dreaming that my bike has never needed choke in the mornings before! :)
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Another interesting update, this morning i started the bike with absolutely no trouble whatsoever!
One blip of the throttle and it ticked over happily, no choke needed at all.
About 90 seconds later i was off down the road expecting it to get throaty again for the first mile or so......but.....nothing!
Smooth as you like, no issues at all as if i'd been riding it all day!
It's fairly mild outside but was foggy, but i'm starting to think the alcohol i put in the tank on Wednesday has done it's job and helped burn off any water that may have been in the tank?
As i said earlier i'll still drain the bowls in the morning just so i can say it's been done but at the moment it appears to be back to normal :woot
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:woot :woot
Does ipa also bind activ8 to itself as well? :pokefun
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but i'm starting to think the alcohol i put in the tank on Wednesday has done it's job and helped burn off any water that may have been in the tank?
...it appears so!!.........Kudos to Unfazed for pointing to the problem.
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:woot :woot
Does ipa also bind activ8 to itself as well? :pokefun
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Ha ha, i knew i could rely on someone to bring that up! :lol
Nothing can grab hold of Activ8, it's far too much of a slippery customer! :D
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but i'm starting to think the alcohol i put in the tank on Wednesday has done it's job and helped burn off any water that may have been in the tank?
...it appears so!!.........Kudos to Unfazed for pointing to the problem.
It's only fair to take the bike out for a drink every now and then. :b
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Just a quick update, i just drained the carbs and there didn't appear to be anything sinister in the fuel, it was just pure petrol that came out.
The bike also started on the button again without any gargling so i reckon that the Isopropyl may have had the desired effect and mixed with any moisture and burnt it off.
Thanks for all the advice as always, me and the bike are happy again :woot