Date: 20-10-21  Time: 14:49 pm

Poll

Would you be willing to take a covid vaccine  

yes
35 (71.4%)
no
6 (12.2%)
Dont know
8 (16.3%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: The Covid thread  (Read 28658 times)

fazersharp

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #75 on: 10 December 2020, 05:04:57 pm »
Just like I said on the 5th December, my instincts are to not be the first to adopt anything new until it has been tested "in the wild"  They have now found out that those with existing severe allergic conditions should not have the vaccine. Also I thought this RNA vaccine was basically inert so I don't get why those with allergic conditions are having a reaction to it.   
I treat it the same as whenever a new softwear update is released after beta testing once many 100's of thousands have downloaded it its only then that they find major problems and have to quickly release a patch, I never have my devices to auto update and I wait a few weeks first to see if people have had issues. 
It still looks like it does not stop you getting it and they do not know if it even stops you from spreading it, but what they say is that iit does reduce the symptoms and increase a positive outcome if you do get it. So as far as I can see once you have received the vaccine then that only increases the chance of you spreading it asymptomatically.So there for even when had the vaccine, if you do get covid you should still need to self isolate shouldn't you ?.   

 I couldn't help but notice that the first to get it were the fittest youngest looking 90 year olds I have ever seen. One 91 year old bloke was interviewed and he explained how he DROVE to the hospital. Seems they are being a little careful as to not give it to any frail oldies - maybe just incase.   

Look out in the new year honours for those behind the vaccine, maybe even for the the trial volunteers too. 
 
« Last Edit: 10 December 2020, 05:50:13 pm by fazersharp »
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #76 on: 10 December 2020, 05:59:59 pm »
Just like I said on the 5th December, my instincts are to not be the first to adopt anything new until it has been tested "in the wild"  They have now found out that those with existing severe allergic conditions should not have the vaccine. Also I thought this RNA vaccine was basically inert so I don't get why those with allergic conditions are having a reaction to it.   
I treat it the same as whenever a new softwear update is released after beta testing once many 100's of thousands have downloaded it its only then that they find major problems and have to quickly release a patch, I never have my devices to auto update and I wait a few weeks first to see if people have had issues. 
It still looks like it does not stop you getting it and they do not know if it even stops you from spreading it, but what they say is that iit does reduce the symptoms and increase a positive outcome if you do get it. So as far as I can see once you have received the vaccine then that only increases the chance of you spreading it asymptomatically.So there for even when had the vaccine, if you do get covid you should still need to self isolate shouldn't you ?.   

 I couldn't help but notice that the first to get it were the fittest youngest looking 90 year olds I have ever seen. One 91 year old bloke was interviewed and he explained how he DROVE to the hospital. Seems they are being a little careful as to not give it to any frail oldies - maybe just incase.   

Look out in the new year honours for those behind the vaccine, maybe even for the the trial volunteers too.

From what I've been hearing and reading over the past few days it would appear this vaccine is really a step in the direction of the original 'heard immunity' approach. Basically its not going away and at some point the majority of people will get some form of the virus.
The hope is that the vaccine will help stop the severity of the infection in the people that need it and after a few years it will get to the point where getting covid will be likened to catching a cold, you may get ill for a week but that'll be it. Obviously a few people will still die of it, as they do with all illnesses but nothing like we are seeing now

fazersharp

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #77 on: 15 December 2020, 05:03:58 pm »
Sick of hearing about second wave and 3rd wave -- there is no waves the virus never went away, people hid away and when they came out of hiding it was still there waiting.
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #78 on: 15 December 2020, 10:30:45 pm »
If the vaccine enables me to start travelling abroad again I'd certainly have it.


Being in the 7th group, I can't see it happening soon, though.

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #79 on: 16 December 2020, 11:18:48 am »
Me's is desperate for it.


Slaninar

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #80 on: 16 December 2020, 11:24:08 am »
As Fazersharp said save it for the elderly and vulnerable. Those of us young or healthy enough to not worry about it will be fine, just like the seasonal flu.
Except the evidence shows it's not quite like seasonal flu, with many young and healthy people being hit badly with some very worrying long term issues. Organ damage, loss of smell/taste, heart issues and other complications from the spread of tiny clots from the fall out. Many of which we're still coming to light and slowly being linked to Covid. Not to mention many young and healthy people from BAME background who have not faired well at all.


Got it. 41 years old, healthy, fit (did a full medical about 6 months ago and it's all been top notch).
With a flu - I'm back to full speed in about 2 weeks time tops. Often it's enough to just lie down for the weekend.
With this? Doctor says it's as mild as one could hope for. No lungs, or other organ damage/problems. Just recovering at home.
However kung flu is different:
- no sense of smell (or taste) for the last 10 days. None. Zilch. Can spray deodorant on my palm, put my nose against it, and smell nothing.
- exhaustion. I can't climb 20 stairs without breathing heavily. It's gotten better after the first 12 days, but still far from remotely normal. Felt sleepy all day even without a fever. Which is never the case with the ordinary flu, at least with me.


Some people get over it just like a flu - relatively quickly.
But most people I know, even the younger ones, took a lot longer to fully recover.
And, some, usually older, and/or overweight - had to go to a hospital, or just died.


As for the topic. I'm not sure.
If it really is a very dangerous disease, why not lock everyone up for a month, globally? With army and the police in the streets. That should stop it completely, no?
This way, it seems it's not considered all too dangerous. With measures getting looser, then a bit tighter, then looser again... changing from country to country. Month to month.


My thinking is - either do a full lockdown, or let everything loose, and who lives-lives. This is like the worst choice. Like cutting a rotten limb in three takes, instead of just one cut.
Economy suffers. That is - ordinary working people are loosing their jobs, apartments - having their lives put in danger.
Human relations suffer - with all the socializing and travelling bans.
And it seems this will last, until further ado. Poor countries won't get any vaccines for another year or so. And when they (we) do, I for one am not 100% certain of whether it is a good quality, well tested product (on that note, I'm not sure any Covid vaccine right now is properly tested, there just wasn't nearly enough time for all I know).


What I'm interested in is what happens with the next virus. And the one after that. Even this one will have society changed, probably not for the good. Imagine kids growing up in this, considering all this distancing as "normal"... How will the civil liberties change. How will they test who got vaccinated and will that decide whether you get to travel, and/or work... I expect this to be used as badly as possible by the corporations & governments.


Not that I'm generally anti-vaccine. Quite the contrary - I think it's one of the best things done by the medicine. Just - well designed, properly tested vaccines. Hell - I even avoid using products (software, or hardware) that haven't been field tested for at least a year.


Rant over. :)
« Last Edit: 16 December 2020, 11:26:32 am by Slaninar »
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fazersharp

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #81 on: 16 December 2020, 01:41:45 pm »
Not a rant at all but a great perspective. Bad luck you have had a kicking from this, I think you are the first on the forum. I heard the other day that they have found a link between certain dna characteristics and the severity of the symptoms to explain why some people suffer more than others.
Locking everyone for a month - year wont stop it as it will still be there waiting.
Its interesting that even you - who has had it bad are still not sure about the vaccine.     
Quote
My thinking is - either do a full lockdown, or let everything loose, and who lives-lives. This is like the worst choice. Like cutting a rotten limb in three takes, instead of just one cut.
There is a middle ground which I think is being pursued in the UK which is a controlled release - let the virus loose at a controlled rate so that we can properly care for those struck by it badly while the rest catch it and move on. 
To that end the vaccine does not stop you getting it nor stop you spreading it.

There are trials going on to see the roll of antibodies, I know someone who is on one such trial being regularly tested for the antibodies after having covid, after a few months the antibodies disappeared, but then someone in close contact to them got covid and their antibodies reappeared again. So when people argue that antibodies do not last - that is not the whole picture, there is also the roll of "T" cells that hardly ever get mentioned in the media.         
« Last Edit: 16 December 2020, 04:11:13 pm by fazersharp »
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Slaninar

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #82 on: 16 December 2020, 04:15:20 pm »
Not a rant at all but a great perspective. Bad luck you have had a kicking from this, I think you are the first on the forum. I heard the other day that they have found a link between certain dna characteristics and the severity of the symptoms to explain why some people suffer more than others.
Locking everyone for a month - year wont stop it as it will still be there waiting.
Its interesting that even you - who has had it bad are still not sure about the vaccine.     


I've had it easy - no real pains, no need for hospital, and no (permanent, or temporaty) organ damage. Suppose it's as good (or nearly as good) as it gets. Apart from the 20 year olds who just "walk it off". :)
I'm primarily concerned for the old folks. That's my greatest fear.


As for the vaccine - there's always a tradeoff between rewards, and the (perceived) risks.
If I were a lot older, I probably would risk it.
Likewise, the younger one is, the less sense it makes risking some (long term?) health problems with a not nearly enough tested vaccine.
My mother is also skeptical. :)   (Un)fortunately, we needn't concern ourselves with that dilemma for at least a year more, until Serbia gets vaccine. Even then, not sure what the priorities will be like - I doubt there would be enough vaccines for everyone.


Concerning the measures - our government started off strictly. Then loosened the regime. Then re-tightened, which resulted in civil unrest, large demonstrations, riots. And guys in power thought "oh, we might loose our grip and get a revolution. Fuck it, let them party all night, go to public happenings, and we'll deal with it somehow."
Now, in the late Autumn, measures are a little bit stricter: no working cafes on weekend, or late night, and obligatory masks in all public places (indoors).
Hospitals are packed - if you break a leg, and can't afford several average monthly pays for a private clinic, you're on your own.


Because of local, and foreign measures, tourism and entertainment industry workers are fucked. Which puts a lot of stress on already tight budget (a lot more unemployed people).
These people are no longer buying stuff, while using government help funds. And it is bound to spill over and hit other businesses who aren't directly affected with Covid crisis. I work with computers and bicycles - both blooming now, and I don't think those will be in trouble while the measures and crisis last, but later - who knows even for those.


Considering pulling all my funds from banks, since I remember them going bancrupt before (in the 90s).


Finally, the thing that shouldn't be disregarded is the social aspect. When there was a "threat of communism", people got a lot of liberties and good living standard for the working class. With the fall of the Berlin wall - "defeat of communism" and the introduction of Euro, average EU worker's wage purchase power was effectively cut in half in less than a decade. There was no longer need for making workers live too well, since there was no fear of them supporting a no longer existing communism.


Then came the "terrorist attacks" - and more control (surveillance) was introduced, at the cost of civil liberties (thorough exams and long procedure at airports, especially for us, from "suspicious countries", along with travel-prohibiting visa costs and procedures, and lots of legislation changes...).


Now we have Covid (and new viruses to come, it's just a matter of time). Very convenient to abuse. And I'm sure it will be abused. With a very good argument: one has to be responsible and not bring harm to others. It just boils down to where the line gets drawn, and if legislation gets put that way that the system can be (ab)used against any "nasty" individuals (home, or abroad).
I'd be surprised if things don't get, and stay, just a little bit more bad than before Covid in those terms (in addition to the economic crisis - expecting it to really hit in 2021).

There are trials going on to see the roll of antibodies, I know someone who is on one such trial being regularly tested for the antibodies after having covid, after a few months the antibodies disappeared, but then someone in close contact to them got covid and their antibodies reappeared again. So when people argue that antibodies do not last - that is not the whole picture, there is also the roll of "T" cells that hardly ever get mentioned in the media.       


The disease is still relatively unknown. First they thought it's a respiratory virus, now they've figured out it attacks the whole system.
They are still not sure how long immunity lasts - either after a "natural" recovery, or a vaccine (correct me if I'm wrong).


Since I'm not what is called a "risky group", I won't rush to get the new vaccine.
For better or worse, there will probably not be an abundance of vaccines available, so skipping one's vaccination means just that someone else (more willing) will get to get it. So it is a sort of a win-win.


P.S.
The last, but not the least important - when I buy Ariel washing powder sold in Serbia (and made for this market), it's not the same quality as one bought in Germany. Ariel publicly admitted that (something like: "well, we know you wash at 90 degrees more, so no need for the powder to work as well at 40, or 60 degrees..." - bullshit corporate talk). Same goes for most other products. I'm not very confident that vaccine we get, even when one for the EU gets properly tested and improved, will be of the same quality. But that's a separate topic.
« Last Edit: 16 December 2020, 04:18:19 pm by Slaninar »
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #83 on: 17 December 2020, 08:59:51 pm »
Some good comments there Slaninar. Looking back, we appeared to have the virus on the run in summer, at which point the govt opened the gates and let it back out. Opens schools, universities, pubs etc. End result, they now cant get the cat back in the bag. Millions of people in the UK now ignore the rules every day, the streets are awash with discarded masks, and the poor bastards awaiting some sort of operation or non covid treatment may now die before they get the chance. Thier cause of death wont be recorded as due to Covid, but in reality, it will be.

fazersharp

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #84 on: 18 December 2020, 09:57:38 am »
and the poor bastards awaiting some sort of operation or non covid treatment may now die before they get the chance. Thier cause of death wont be recorded as due to Covid, but in reality, it will be.
And then there are those that get ran over by a bus and because they had covid 28 days ago they go down as a covid death. Or as I have noticed the phrasing has lightly changed when it is read out in the news." xxxx deaths where covid 19 was mentioned on the death certificate"
 Have we seen any reports in the UK news about an anaphylactic response that occurred in the states from someone without any previous allergic reactions. The UK news is ignoring it.   
     
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #85 on: 18 December 2020, 06:07:09 pm »
And then there's those who die 29 days after a positive test, who aren't counted.


I still think the only accurate measure is excess deaths over and above the average.

fazersharp

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #86 on: 18 December 2020, 06:22:27 pm »
And then there's those who die 29 days after a positive test, who aren't counted.
I think they are also using a 60 day metric for other figures -weakly or monthly or something, need to check.

I still think the only accurate measure is excess deaths over and above the average.
Yes and that can only be properly done after a whole year. Maybe April.
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mtread

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #87 on: 19 December 2020, 12:23:44 am »
Quote
Yes and that can only be properly done after a whole year. Maybe April.
Why? Cumulatively since last winter surely. The seasonal graph month by month is pretty consistent, and the huge spike last April and May is pretty obvious. No compensating reduction since then. Unless, in the unlikely event, we are expecting a dramatic fall off in deaths between now and April.

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #88 on: 19 December 2020, 10:26:25 am »
and the poor bastards awaiting some sort of operation or non covid treatment may now die before they get the chance. Thier cause of death wont be recorded as due to Covid, but in reality, it will be.
And then there are those that get ran over by a bus and because they had covid 28 days ago they go down as a covid death. Or as I have noticed the phrasing has lightly changed when it is read out in the news." xxxx deaths where covid 19 was mentioned on the death certificate"
 Have we seen any reports in the UK news about an anaphylactic response that occurred in the states from someone without any previous allergic reactions. The UK news is ignoring it.   
   


The 28 day ruling is farcical, but somewhat better than the 6 months that it was beforehand.


It's more about dying "with" or "of" that people really need to know.


My elderly neighbour had a heart attack at home in the earlier months but died with C-19, which they suggest he caught in hospital.
So what killed him, his age, the heart attack or C-19, or most likely all three?  :look
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fazersharp

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #89 on: 19 December 2020, 10:54:07 am »
Quote
Yes and that can only be properly done after a whole year. Maybe April.
Why? Unless, in the unlikely event, we are expecting a dramatic fall off in deaths between now and April.
Yes that is exactly it. My feeling is that many of those that died in the early stages were going to die anyway perhaps in this winter which is why the death rate early on was high and I predict which is why the death rate for the whole year will show little if even no increase.
 I also predict that any full year low death count will be put down to a vaccine and lock down.
 On the vaccine I heard someone had done some math and at the current rate needing 2 shots it would take 2.5 years to vaccine the amount of people needed to suppress it to a point where it was not a threat.
 
« Last Edit: 19 December 2020, 11:40:33 am by fazersharp »
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #90 on: 19 December 2020, 11:38:16 am »
How about the newly found variant "faster spreading" --- faster how, I can find loads about "mutant faster spreading" but nothing that explains what it is that makes it faster. I was under the impression the current one was Fastest McFaster. It feels to me like it has been "found" to provide a reason for extra restrictions.   

 How can it spread faster? -the only thing I can think of is shorter incubation ?. Which would translate in it showing earlier and that person being able to isolate before they unwittingly spread it - resulting in less infections. 

« Last Edit: 19 December 2020, 11:39:10 am by fazersharp »
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #91 on: 19 December 2020, 11:59:40 am »
How about the newly found variant "faster spreading" --- faster how, I can find loads about "mutant faster spreading" but nothing that explains what it is that makes it faster. I was under the impression the current one was Fastest McFaster. It feels to me like it has been "found" to provide a reason for extra restrictions.   

 How can it spread faster? -the only thing I can think of is shorter incubation ?. Which would translate in it showing earlier and that person being able to isolate before they unwittingly spread it - resulting in less infections.


Christmas shoppers is my guess.
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #92 on: 19 December 2020, 05:29:13 pm »
It feels to me like it has been "found" to provide a reason for extra restrictions.   
So just like I said earlier.it looks like a perfect excuse to make a u turn on the Christmas plans. Its a get out of jail free u turn Card. It was also not looking good that a Christian event could go ahead when other religions could not.
Odd no other country in the word has the convenient varient.

Sikening the likes of kungsberg been pushing for tighter Christmas restrictions now phrasing her questions as peoples Christmas plans Torn up. At least we don't have to also put up with Beth rigby doing the same as she has been suspended for breaking lock down rules, also after calling for more lockdowns

Still no explanation of how it is 70% more transmittable, stays on surfaces longer ..?
Why Kent and London, isn't Kent the landing zone for the 6,000 dinghy visitors, many of which have gone on the run or otherwise disappeared, wouldnt London be a good place to disappear.
« Last Edit: 19 December 2020, 05:43:46 pm by fazersharp »
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #93 on: 20 December 2020, 12:34:40 am »
Quote
Yes that is exactly it. My feeling is that many of those that died in the early stages were going to die anyway perhaps in this winter which is why the death rate early on was high and I predict which is why the death rate for the whole year will show little if even no increase.
And I predict you are very wrong.


https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/press/press-releases/excess-deaths-ons-data-kings-fund-response

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #94 on: 20 December 2020, 09:48:48 am »
And then there's those who die 29 days after a positive test, who aren't counted.


I still think the only accurate measure is excess deaths over and above the average.


My talent of finding problems, and seeing things from all sides :)
In a special measures situation - stay at home, not nearly as much travelling, even curfews, masks...
the number of deaths may not increase. Fewer traffic accidents. Fewer people sick from flu and other diseases - because of all the extra measures, social distancing, staying at home etc.
Then, there's probably a larger number of heart related problems/deaths - from less moving, more stress etc.


So it's not that simple. :)
Statistics is a good tool, but one has to know how to use it, and be aware of all the caveats.


On topic: the good soul won't skip the queue. I think that's beautiful :)
https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-ceo-albert-bourla-wait-cut-line-covid-19-vaccine-2020-12
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #95 on: 20 December 2020, 10:42:51 am »
Quote
On topic: the good soul won't skip the queue. I think that's beautiful :)
https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-ceo-albert-bourla-wait-cut-line-covid-19-vaccine-2020-12
Beautiful  :eek  I think its frightening. The CEO doesn't even trust his own vaccine. Just the same as every politician questioned if they will be seen to be vaccinated  "yes yes absolutely I will take it yes yes but I am not yet in the roll out"
Do we know of any old duffers in the house of Lords that have taken it yet.

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #96 on: 20 December 2020, 10:47:18 am »
Quote
On topic: the good soul won't skip the queue. I think that's beautiful :)
https://www.businessinsider.com/pfizer-ceo-albert-bourla-wait-cut-line-covid-19-vaccine-2020-12
Beautiful  :eek  I think its frightening. The CEO doesn't even trust his own vaccine. Just the same as every politician questioned if they will be seen to be vaccinated  "yes yes absolutely I will take it yes yes but I am not yet in the roll out"
Do we know of any old duffers in the house of Lords that have taken it yet.


I'm sure that the public health is his first priority - just like with most politicians. They're saving the doses for those who need it most.
"From the people, for the people!"
 :rollin


It is strange though he couldn't just lie about having received the vaccine. Perhaps they fear it could backfire if it comes out, but still seems a bit strange.
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #97 on: 20 December 2020, 11:05:44 am »
And then there's those who die 29 days after a positive test, who aren't counted.


I still think the only accurate measure is excess deaths over and above the average.


My talent of finding problems, and seeing things from all sides :)
In a special measures situation - stay at home, not nearly as much travelling, even curfews, masks...
the number of deaths may not increase. Fewer traffic accidents. Fewer people sick from flu and other diseases - because of all the extra measures, social distancing, staying at home etc.
Then, there's probably a larger number of heart related problems/deaths - from less moving, more stress etc.
Yes from looking at mtreads,  next -slide - please. it shows far more excess deaths from non covid than covid.
« Last Edit: 20 December 2020, 11:09:57 am by fazersharp »
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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #98 on: 20 December 2020, 01:06:45 pm »
Quote
Yes from looking at mtreads,  next -slide - please. it shows far more excess deaths from non covid than covid.
Well of course it does. Far more people are still dying of 'ordinary' things. But the total excess deaths from everything will be much higher over the 12 months, and the cause of the excess is Covid-19, either directly or indirectly. Unless you can come up with another reason?

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Re: POLL Will you take the Vax
« Reply #99 on: 22 December 2020, 01:04:24 am »
Biden gets the vaccine live on TV. Its good but he hardly needs to worry about any possible long term effects. We need to see our politicians doing the same.
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