First Car - Have I been ripped off??

[Yamazer-92]

For anyone who CBA to read the whole thing - If a water pump is replaced on a diesel engine should / would the coolant also be replaced?? Also, are glow plugs part of regular servicing intervals?

Last weekend I picked up my first car (I know I know), well sort of van actually, it's a Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCI. I went for this because I needed something that can carry a full drum kit and bass rig and is cheap to buy, run and insure (I'm 22 and have no car claims bonus). The kangoo definitely ticked all the boxes. It's also really comfortable, has a lot of space (especially headroom) and it's quite fun to drive in a weird way. It has no creature comforts other than a cd player and a heater. It cost £950, has done 110k miles and has had the same owner since new. I bought it private sale from a genuine guy knowing it needed a service, that the cam belt hadn't been replaced for a long while and that the rear tyre was wearing pretty low.


I don't like to gamble with mechanical stuff so I booked it in to my local garage on Monday. They told me to get it there Thursday between 8am and 9am so I did.I agreed to have a full service done plus a cambelt and waterpump change. I also wanted the fanbelt doing as it was squealing on cold mornings. Al in this was £650.  I went past 4 times throughout the day, going to and from work then off to football and back at 7pm (garage was still open) and it hadn't moved once even though he said it would be done that afternoon... Odd I thought. Next day I went past and it was finally in the garage and on a ramp. They phoned while I was at work but I wasn't there to answer, this was at 12pm and I got home at about 4.30.  I'm wondering if they were trying to contact me about an issue but when they couldn't just went sort of went, ah sod it he wont notice and carried on anyway.


When I got the car home, I looked under the bonnet and there isn't a lot to see as most is covered but the coolant looked old and dark still, certainly not nice new fluorescent stuff. I thought that was a bit odd. Next, the fan belt squeal was still there on cold mornings but didn't last as long or as bad. I can't tell if the belt has been replaced, it may be one of the pulleys squealing so I'll have a look. Annoyingly though, a new light has now come on the dash which in the owners manual relates to either a glow plug or electrical issue warning. The car drives fine, but is hard to start when before I put it in the garage it was fine. Do you think something dodgy is going on or am I being paranoid? I don't know a lot about car servicing, especially diesel, but from looking online if changing the glow plugs and relay doesn't fix this issue then I am in a world of hurt chasing down umpteen electrical issues. Just plugging in Renaults computer diagnostic machine costs £90.... I really like this van so would love if anyone could help me out. My plan of action is to take it to a different garage locally, one a friend recommended and get him to do the glow plugs and relay and just give it a once over.

[mickvp]

Without reading the whole thing - If the water pump is changed it normally means draining the whole system (the pump is usually at the bottom of the system somewhere, so removing it means removing the coolant).

In my experience its bad practice to drain any fluid and put it back in again. So no, I wouldnt have thought they would have put it back in again.

With regards to plugging it into a computer - have a look on ebay. I bought an ELM327 lead from ebay and it was able to "talk" to my diesel Mondeo. its an OBD2 cable so sould be able to talk to most vehicles. it was only about £15-20 so might be worth a punt for you rather than pay £90. it could pop up enough of a fault code that you can google it.

[noggythenog]

Kai....why did you get the water pump replaced?...im assuming it was not because the previous owner said that it was dodgy but rather it was because the garage said to you that to replace 1 of the belts actually involved changing all of the belts and also the water pump.

is that right???

[mickvp]

Kai....why did you get the water pump replaced?...im assuming it was not because the previous owner said that it was dodgy but rather it was because the garage said to you that to replace 1 of the belts actually involved changing all of the belts and also the water pump.

is that right???

it makes sense to do them both at the one time, as if the water pump goes afterwards, it means taking the timing belt etc off again. (sort of the same idea as most diesels having the DMF/clutch done simultaneously now.) The water pump is only about £60-70 anyway, so not a massive cost in comparison to the whole job.

[slappy]

Nothing wrong about being paranoid ehen it comes to garages.
The fan belt should look obviously new, same for water pump, and I would have thought it almost impossible to change a water pump without draining all the old coolant.
You need someone you can trust to check that the work has been done, if not report them to trading standards, £650 is a lot of money.

[BBROWN1664]

Water pump is common to change when doing the cam belt as the belt often drives the pump and the bearings tend to go when the pressure is released after a long time.
Coolant should have been changed but can be very dirty very quickly if they didn't flush the system and unless you ask for this it's unlikely they would do it. Get an antifreeze tester from halfords as that will give you an indication as to whether it needs changing.

Glow plugs only ever come out when faulty. Never changed at service time.they are not like spark plugs that need adjusting, they are just heaters.

[noggythenog]

Kai....why did you get the water pump replaced?...im assuming it was not because the previous owner said that it was dodgy but rather it was because the garage said to you that to replace 1 of the belts actually involved changing all of the belts and also the water pump.

is that right???

it makes sense to do them both at the one time, as if the water pump goes afterwards, it means taking the timing belt etc off again. (sort of the same idea as most diesels having the DMF/clutch done simultaneously now.) The water pump is only about £60-70 anyway, so not a massive cost in comparison to the whole job.

exactly Mick, it is good practice and I can recall getting it done on my old VW's but I thought that the VW engines were possibly unique in this sense.......back in the day nobody used to do this they'd just replace a belt at a time but it seems most modern engines are like this now.

what I was getting at was trying to picture more what actually happened so if the garage actually suggested this work ie all belts and pump and then im guessing that they gave you a receipt detailing what work was carried out did they Kai?????........if so then you should have them by the balls so long as you take it to another authorised garage who can inspect the items and get serial numbers etc off of them just to prove how old they are or whatever......personally I wouldn't trust the original garage but it may be the case that they want the chance to rectify their failings.

[Yamazer-92]

Thank you for the comments guys, I thought it seemed a bit fishy having the old coolant still in... Noggy, the belt hadn't been done on the service history for quite a long time, over the 5 year reccomended service period and approaching the 72000 mile service period so I decided to take the hit and get it done rather than it snap and ruin the whole engine. Like mick says, makes sense to get the water pump done at the same time as it runs off the cam belt. However, I don't know where the water pump is to try and look at it. All I looked at before taking it in to the garage was the auxiliary / fan belt and that was just black and shiney and now looks black and shiney, and some sort of filter possibly fuel which I think has been changed. Haven't checked the oil, as there isn't any level ground near my house although probably looks black like it did before.


Mick I did read about those diagnostic machines you can buy, would you recommend them? Thing is I have no idea where to put it or what the codes might mean, I might see if the garage my friend recommended has one and get him to do it. I think getting the glow plugs and glow plug relay changed is a good idea anyway as this apparently can solve the issue mine now has, but it's if it doesn't that I'm worried about. The van drives fine now, just tricky to start especially if it's cold. Can't tell if it's down on power but I don't think it is, it only has 65hp anyway haha! Turbo still kicks in and everything so I'm thinking fingers crossed it could be glow plugs...

[Yamazer-92]

Water pump is common to change when doing the cam belt as the belt often drives the pump and the bearings tend to go when the pressure is released after a long time.
Coolant should have been changed but can be very dirty very quickly if they didn't flush the system and unless you ask for this it's unlikely they would do it. Get an antifreeze tester from halfords as that will give you an indication as to whether it needs changing.

Glow plugs only ever come out when faulty. Never changed at service time.they are not like spark plugs that need adjusting, they are just heaters.

I did wonder if it could have got dirty from an old unflushed radiator or something, but it looks old...like old like my Fazers coolant that had never been changed for years. My Fazers coolant is still orange now after 2 years, granted I did fully flush the system. Is it possible it could have really gotten dirty that fast? How much would an antifreeze tester be do you reckon? I thought glow plugs were possibly not a serviceable item, no worries I'll get them changed anyway.

[mickvp]

Mick I did read about those diagnostic machines you can buy, would you recommend them?

Glow plugs wont have an effect on power. they are only used for the initial starting of the engine in cold weather. diesel engines can generally run on their own compression alone (the compression can generate enough heat to ignite the air/fuel mix).

The diagnostic machines are ok mate. nowhere near as good as the proper job, but good for a bit of DIY fault finding. if you can pull the codes and google them you will generaly find out what they mean as a lot of them are generic to all cars.:

http://engine-codes.com/obd-code-list/powertrain

[Dead Eye]

Water pumps are very often driven by the cambelt and as mentioned would require the belt to be moved aside if the pump needed replacing - which is just a pain due to having to time the engine - so replacing the pump is normal. You also don't want an old pump to seize up and burn through a cambelt - this happened to an unfortunate person on the ZS forums.

Now, I'm not certain where the pump is on your engine, but if it's anything like mine, it is impossible to inspect without removing a lot of stuff. Mine is run by the cambelts behind a metal shroud that has all the ancillaries bolted to it as well as the fan belt (auxiliary belt). Not all pumps are at the bottom of the loop - mine is actually pretty near the top, so it's entirely possible that they didn't replace the fluid. Possibly a bit naughty of them, but unless they said they would do it... check the receipts - if they did do it then it should be billed item imo. Even then, in an old engine with a lot of miles, the fluid won't stay particularly clean very long so its entirely possible its just coincidence that it's dirty now.

Glow Plugs imo are a service item, but their life span is extremely long compared to other items. At 110k miles I'd be beginning to think about changing them as its about the right time and 95% of the time it will solve sluggish starting issues. As an interim, cycle the ignition twice - ign on, wait for glow plug light to go out, turn off, ign on, wait for glow plug light to go out, start car

Fan belt squeal. How old is the Van? My old Golf GTi ('91) had a manually adjusted tensioner for the fan / aux belt and the power steering pump would squeal constantly if it was too loose so that could explain the problem even with a new belt. Newer vehicles may use a spring loaded tensioner (like my ZS) but if the engine is old and well used it could require replacing or simply for the area to be cleaned and the some WD40 worked in to the tensioner.



All of my experience is from my own vehicles and completing my own maintenance. I have not personally swapped out glow plugs, but I have recently replaced the cam belts and water pump on my V6. As always, a good garage is always recommended over a cheap garage. It's difficult to do any sort of long distance diagnosis but it's possible the garage did everything, but just didn't spend extra time making sure it was perfect.

And finally, Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV)

[fazersharp]

Yep as has been said better than I can explain, I know someone who bought a renault cleio that was due a cambelt/ pully change and the deal was that you cannot tell if the water pump needs replacing until everything is striped off to get to the cambelt and in any case it is only about an extra £30£? to replace it so you may as well because all the labour is in getting to the cambelts

[Yamazer-92]

I don't know where the water pump is dead eye, haven't had a proper look but nothing was immediately obvious and a lot of the engine is hidden by stuff and a big plastic cover which I haven't removed yet. There is no mention of a coolant change on the receipt, I would have expected it was a service item though even if it is possible they didn't need to drain the coolant to do the water pump? Either way, I'll ask for it to be flushed and replaced at the new garage I'm taking it to or if he can measure the antifreeze age first I'll get him to check it before changing. Does look very manky though, can't imagine the engine is THAT dirty after 60 miles of driving.


I have been reading about glow plugs and what you say is all correct, although apparently they are not actually regarded as service items. I have read in particularly cold weather it is a good idea to double warm them by ignition on and off twice. My problem is the light comes on now and then never goes off. The manual states this is either a glow plug or other electrical warning issue. Youtube and google shows it's quite a common fault among renaults, not just diesels either as it's also the electrical fault warning in petrol engines.


The van is 2002 so not mega old, it is the power steering pump that makes the squeal worse as if I turn the wheel it goes from a minor noise to a loud squeal. Like I say, it has got much quieter now and is only present for the first 30 seconds or so, turning the wheel only makes a small difference now compared to before where it sounded awful. I think one of the pulleys may be loose, I'll try and check.


I agree the garage may well have done everything, they're always busy and I go there for my Fazer mot but I have gone there before and they have been a bit crap twice leading me to feel a bit unsure of the work they've done now. 1st time I took my original downpipes to get them welded (lost cause I know) and they assured me they had been pressure tested for leaks, but I pointed out a huge 2-3cm hole they had missed right near the top of the header...Guy looked embarrassed to say the least. I also gave them my calipers for them to change the seals as I wasn't too confident about getting the pistons out and had just bought a new fazer 1000 rear caliper. It took them over a week to even start the job, only when I went in and sat in the office did they finally begin it one friday afternoon. The main mechanic then came out and asked why I had so many seals and why they were different sizes??? I had to explain it was a 4 piston caliper, 2 seals per piston and the rear caliper has 2 bigger pistons. Wasn't brimming with confidence at that point. Maybe I should have gone elsewhere this time, I thought they may be better with cars but they are literally about 200m down the road so its convenient and like I say always very busy with bikes and cars.

[Yamazer-92]

exactly Mick, it is good practice and I can recall getting it done on my old VW's but I thought that the VW engines were possibly unique in this sense.......back in the day nobody used to do this they'd just replace a belt at a time but it seems most modern engines are like this now.

what I was getting at was trying to picture more what actually happened so if the garage actually suggested this work ie all belts and pump and then im guessing that they gave you a receipt detailing what work was carried out did they Kai?????........if so then you should have them by the balls so long as you take it to another authorised garage who can inspect the items and get serial numbers etc off of them just to prove how old they are or whatever......personally I wouldn't trust the original garage but it may be the case that they want the chance to rectify their failings.

Noggy I asked for the water pump to be replaced with the cam belt, like mick says it makes sense to do both together and the pump itself isn't that expensive it's the labour involved in getting to it which will be done when the cam belt is replaced anyway. So what I'm worried I got ripped off with is have they actually replaced the water pump at all? I would have expected the coolant to be done too, which is why I asked if that was common practice as I expected it would be. I do have a receipt and it doesn't mention coolant change, just engine timing belt and water pump, aux belt, air filter, fuel filter, pollen filter, oil filter, engine oil, consumables (??) and a bulb. Got some advisory notes too, most I knew about and rectified but a couple quite serious which I will sort by the next MOT in november.

[darrsi]

If the coolant had been changed, it would have been on your receipt, it's certainly not common practice to do things for free.
Even if they had changed it as a freebie it would still be listed as a "no charge".

[VNA - BMW Wank]

I've been running a VW Bora for almost ten years now.
A lot of the time the fan belt gives a nice wee squeak when I change gear, it's been doing that since I got it. 

Long life coolant is good for 5 years now.  So normal to put it back in if doing work that requires it to be drained.

[fazersharp]

Just dug out the receipt for the cambelt change on clio says
dristrib kit me3   £104.27
Kit starter belt £60
Coolant type D 5L £10.29
Plug LA £4.28
Core plug LA £6.00
Water pump £67.16
Labour £123
Total with vat £450
At an independant local renault garage

[Dead Eye]

Given your history with the garage, just stay away - go somewhere else. They don't sound overly competent and by the sounds of things I'm going to guess that they didn't change the fluid.

With the fan belt, it sounds like the new belt has alleviated some of the problem, but hasn't fully cured the issue - as a complete guess I'd be looking at the tensioner personally. The new belt is obviously slightly more taught... you know, because its new, so the squealing has been reduced. Leads me to think that the belt just needs to be tensioned a bit more - but I fully accept that I could be wrong and obviously get a qualified mechanic to check it out.

You are right that a lot of manufacturers don't put the glow plugs down as a service item - personally I consider them to be and would usually be looking to replace them around the 100-120k mark as a matter of course.



All of your cambelt changes are so cheap The disadvantage of a V6... half the garages don't want to touch it and the ones that will quote silly money (£1k+) Cheapest I've ever seen is £650 and that was somewhere up north...