Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: happycallis on 03 July 2018, 03:51:34 pm
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Hey all,
What's everyone's preference for front fork spring kits .I have seen the hyperpro, ohlins, having and so forth. If I temereme rightly one was preferred to the others. I do ride in a spirited manner and will sometimes have a pillion too .
Cheers
Matthew
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Your first step is to decide on whether you want progressive or linear springs. With progressive most folks go with Hyperpro so that will be your answer if you choose to go that way.
I chose to go the linear route and if you decide to go that way it is important that you get the right springs for your weight most suppliers will help you with this but there are also some online calculators too. I bought my 10.0 springs, bushes & seals from K-Tech.
If you want help deciding linear vs progressive then I'll get my popcorn out and enjoy the ride :lurk (and maybe chip in).
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Honestly I'm not sure, I think I was looking at the ktec kit a while back. Chances[size=78%] are I will be pairing it up with the R6 rear shock conversion too. Whats the best for faster road riding. [/size]
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For faster road riding and track riding I would suggest linear springs are definitely the way to go though again make sure you get the right ones for your weight.
Edit:
See http://www.promecha.com.au/springs_advanced.htm (http://www.promecha.com.au/springs_advanced.htm)
"Progressive springing is much less popular for road-racing, with linear main springs used almost universally. There is a good reason for this: going around corners compresses your suspension, by quite a lot with modern race tyres. With progressive or dual rate springs, that means the suspension is going to be stiffer than when upright. However mid corner is also where you most need good grip and would really prefer your tyres not to be bouncing off the ground."
"Dual or progressive rate springs are really a compromise that allows low-speed comfort without excess bottoming, which is why Honda fit them to road bikes. Racing is not about compromise, so they don’t get used for that."
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For faster road riding and track riding I would suggest linear springs are definitely the way to go though again make sure you get the right ones for your weight.
Edit:
See [url]http://www.promecha.com.au/springs_advanced.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.promecha.com.au/springs_advanced.htm[/url])
"Progressive springing is much less popular for road-racing, with linear main springs used almost universally. There is a good reason for this: going around corners compresses your suspension, by quite a lot with modern race tyres. With progressive or dual rate springs, that means the suspension is going to be stiffer than when upright. However mid corner is also where you most need good grip and would really prefer your tyres not to be bouncing off the ground."
"Dual or progressive rate springs are really a compromise that allows low-speed comfort without excess bottoming, which is why Honda fit them to road bikes. Racing is not about compromise, so they don’t get used for that."
Cheers for that info. Ktech springs it is the. Just need to see which ones I need.
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No problem, I was expecting more of a bun fight, but I don't think you'll go wrong with K-Tech linear springs.
K-Tech recommend a 10w fork oil but if I were doing mine again I would consider the oil on this thread - http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,2748.msg224797.html#msg224797 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,2748.msg224797.html#msg224797) (last post).
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I have just fitted K-Tech 0.95 springs with 2.5w oil, 140mm gap. Haven't been out on her yet but will report back once I do
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I have just fitted K-Tech 0.95 springs with 2.5w oil, 140mm gap. Haven't been out on her yet but will report back once I do
Why choose such a light oil, K-Tech recommended me 10w with their linear springs, that's quite a difference?
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Why choose such a light oil, K-Tech recommended me 10w with their linear springs, that's quite a difference?
The oil was already in there - still fairly fresh from the previous 'RavenRider' fork mod that I carried out about 6 months ago.Anyway, after this evening's sortie, the 0.95 springs appear to be a little too firm / harsh for my lightweight form (13 stone inc. gear)...unless it's the thin oil causing the issues. Which it might be, considering Racetech & Traxxion charts indicate this spring rate is close to optimum (for me) :\
Not sure now whether to plump for 0.9, 0.85 or just compromise with Hyperpro progressive springs...
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Fork oil is confusing because we've always gone on 10w or 15w etc but someone said it's about 'centistokes' or something like that anyway and he was putting 2.5w oil into FJR1300 forks because of this centistoke factor. I can't really say I understood what the Foc he was on about so I just bought some 10 and 15 and mixed them to make 12.5 ish.
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Why choose such a light oil, K-Tech recommended me 10w with their linear springs, that's quite a difference?
The oil was already in there - still fairly fresh from the previous 'RavenRider' fork mod that I carried out about 6 months ago.Anyway, after this evening's sortie, the 0.95 springs appear to be a little too firm / harsh for my lightweight form (13 stone inc. gear)...unless it's the thin oil causing the issues. Which it might be, considering Racetech & Traxxion charts indicate this spring rate is close to optimum (for me) :\
Not sure now whether to plump for 0.9, 0.85 or just compromise with Hyperpro progressive springs...
9.5N springs for your weight sounds way too much, I'm on 10N springs and am 20 stone. Lighter oil will probably be making the situation better rather than worse as it will be going through the damping adjusters much more freely than a heavier oil. I would give K-Tech a call or drop them an email and ask their advice they are normally happy to help - http://www.ktechsuspension.com/contact. (http://www.ktechsuspension.com/contact.)
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9.5N springs for your weight sounds way too much
Aye, I think it is - not sure why the American suspension specialists think it's the right rate. In the past I've used 0.85 and 0.90 springs in the forks of other bikes: on hindsight I should have stuck with the lower spring rates but thought that maybe there was something different about FZS forks.
Thanks for the link, just emailed them about spring rate and oil weight.
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Slightly underwhelming response from K-Tech:
Hi,The springs may be a bit on the hard side but the oil is definitely too thin, we would recommend 10wt oil with a 145mm air gap/oil level. Best RegardsSo no definite spring rate recommendation for my weight. I think I'm going to switch to the 0.85 springs, along with heavier oil. I have a sneaking feeling 0.90 might still be a little too harsh for me, particularly on some of the back roads I get my kicks from. Will report back again ...eventually ;)
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Springs have finally arrived so thats this weekend sorted out. Ended up being recommended the 0.95 with 5w oil. Just need to figure out what air gap I need to run.
Edit: Just contacted Ktech to see what they say
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If it helps, when I asked K-Tech about the correct air gap they (Chris Taylor) said 140-150mm I went with 140mm.
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Just finished fitting them. They recommended 140mm air gap which I went with. Does anyone have any base setting to set the forks too?
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Following this thread with interest.
As a very amateur mechanic (read cr*p but willing to give it a go!!) how easy/ hard would it be for me to attempt changing the front fork springs and oil?
I feel like my '02 thou could do with a 'sprucing' up and think that the suspension could be a good place to start.
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Have a read up on the task beforehand, a few notes on a sheet of paper can help. Then just take your time and feel very pleased with yourself when it's done. Don't guess on anything, there's always someone here to answer any question however basic.
Good luck :) .
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Following this thread with interest.
As a very amateur mechanic (read cr*p but willing to give it a go!!) how easy/ hard would it be for me to attempt changing the front fork springs and oil?
I feel like my '02 thou could do with a 'sprucing' up and think that the suspension could be a good place to start.
I'd recommend a Haynes Manual to start with so you can familiarise and prepare yourself for the task at hand yourself and follow step by step instructions when you're ready.
I find the most difficult parts of the job tends to be undoing the cartridge bolt that allows you to separating the fork leg from the stanchion and also driving in new fork seals. You can of course bypass those steps if you don't want to replace the seals and bushes but if you're planning on keeping the bike it makes sense to do those if they haven't already been done.
As has already been said if you need advice on any aspect of the job post up and someone will help.
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Does anyone have the STD suspension settings for the front forks they could post up pls just so I have somewhere to start with as not sure what's going to be best for the new springs.
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What’s the result then?I want to do mine n all
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Just under 13 stone in kit, 0.85kg springs, 10w oil, oil height 140mm.Preload minimum, compression 12 clicks out from max, rebound 5 out from max (started with standard 7 and 4 respectively).
In a word, disappointing. Longer version - from a handling perspective, far better at holding lines, but remains harsh, kicking up over bumps. Perhaps I've been spoilt by suspension setups from other bikes, but to me, over bumpy back roads (where I spend a lot of my time) the bump compliance is still nowhere near good enough. I bought this bike with the possibility of touring in mind, but that's not an option until it can go over uneven roads without delivering impact shocks to me through the bars.
As a final fork mod, I'm cutting the internal preload spacer down by 10mm and reducing oil height to 150mm to see if it becomes marginally softer.
After that, I'm not sure re options. Unlikely to go down the R1 fork route again. Might fit R6 5SL forks again or get someone like Maxton to modify the internal valving.
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If your primary aim is to achieve a more plush ride for touring / comfort then progressive springs would be a better choice. By their nature linear springs are harsher compared to progressive / dual-rate but offer more predictable handling allowing you to carry more speed through corners etc. but they shouldn't be overly harsh as to make the bike unpleasant to ride. Have you tried reducing compression damping as this should soften the action of the forks?
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I've previously replaced standard dual rate springs with linears for my old TRX850, Bandit 1200 and FZS600 bikes: all were comfortable enough afterwards.
With only 11k up on the clock the forks shouldn't be worn out yet - nonetheless, I am begining to suspect that my fork leg stanchions might even be slightly warped / out-of-true, restricting / slowing down the fluidity of inner stanchion movement.
Compression damping was reduced from 7 to 18 clicks out, didn't seem to make any noticeable difference. Although I've yet to test my final modifications, it probably won't make that much of a difference. So I'm now thinking whether I should throw another £500+ for the suspension pros to sort out the damping, spend roughly the same amount buying & fitting Andreani or Race Tech fork internals or just switch over to other forks.... rapidly turning into a bottomless money pit :\
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Blimey, I’m on std fork spring with 10w oil. Just as you say it kick off bumps all the time, I read on here somewhere the forks have too much comp so I’ve would it all off, it’s better but not as good as other bikes I’ve had. I’ll try some progressive springs.
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My $0.02.
From memory 10w oil is too thick.
I ran 9.5 springs with 2.5/5w mix. Rebound was on max and compression was backed right off to 3 or 4 clicks.
Everybody who rode it always said it was compliant.
The standard forks upgraded are reasonably useful bits of kit, but take a bit of time to set up.
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Can you remember what your ore load was set to. I'm running the same springs with 5w oil.
My $0.02.
From memory 10w oil is too thick.
I ran 9.5 springs with 2.5/5w mix. Rebound was on max and compression was backed right off to 3 or 4 clicks.
Everybody who rode it always said it was compliant.
The standard forks upgraded are reasonably useful bits of kit, but take a bit of time to set up.
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Lol I'm not long after taking 2.5w oil out, I should maybe stick it back in again :lol
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Can you remember what your ore load was set to. I'm running the same springs with 5w oil.
My $0.02.
From memory 10w oil is too thick.
I ran 9.5 springs with 2.5/5w mix. Rebound was on max and compression was backed right off to 3 or 4 clicks.
Everybody who rode it always said it was compliant.
The standard forks upgraded are reasonably useful bits of kit, but take a bit of time to set up.
I take it you mean pre load.
Preload only sets the ride height (sag) on your forks so is subjective to each rider.
However I had my forks dropped 15mm and 25mm of sag. Really getting on the brakes (stoppie) would leave @ 20mm of fork travel left. Hth
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Cheers 5LV for that. It just gives me something to aim at now and see how it goes for me.
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Think I have fucked up somewhere down the line .I have wound out the pre load adjuster as far as it will go and I get about 3mm of sag. When I had the forks apart could I have done something to it?
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I didn't get much sag outta my revised setup when I first fitted them - there could be fork 'stiction'.
These revised springs you added - are they the same length as the original springs or different?
The only thing I can think of is that your replacement fork springs are not exact same length as the original springs - if they are longer than standard and you haven't revised the length of the hollow metal spacer to take the difference into account they would be very firm as a result, offering little sag.
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Did you bleed the damping rod when you 're assembled the forks?
As has been mentioned, measure the spring lengths as k tech do have a reputation for getting things wrong.
Once you have checked the obvious get back to us😉
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To be honest I didn't check the springs against each other.
I did bleed the system before putting them back together .
The metal spacer you are referring to, is that the one that sits at the bottom of the fork leg? If so would I need to shorten it by the difference in the springs length?
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Don't start cutting spacers.
Phone k tech and tell them that they've sent you the wrong items. ( if they have)
The spring rates are engraved on one end, check that too!
Mine came with different numbers of coils in each spring!
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I will have a look as one of my forkseals has decided to die on me so will have to take one of the forks back apart.
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I went down the progressive spring route simply because of the state of the crap roads , the handling may be a bit compromised but for me it was the way to go.Having also gone down the R6 rear shock route and talking at length to both Luke and Mike, the front is greatly defected by the rear shock, so may be you should look at that also.Luke gave me some settings for my R6 shock but they did not work with my progressive springs and spent some time finding the best compromise , for that is what it is in the end. It was Mike who finely sorted it out in the end with just a few tweaks to the front and rear, now it sorted. With the bad state of are roads I don't believe you can get a perfect setup just a compromise.
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I have just finished fitting the R6 rear shock conversion and had the bike booked in to have the suspension set up properly for me (they have done both my race bikes before) I know there is a from fork internals kit available for it but will see what it's like once setup
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Ricky do you know what the settings were in the end after Mike sorted it? Also where do you all take your bikes to have the suspension set up and what sort of price is it?
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I'm going to MD-racing over in Middlesex as it's nice and local to me.
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HM Racing in Edenbridge if that's in anyones neck of the woods.
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Hi Triggergee, Unfortunately my settings were as set up by Luke at the rear to start with so can not remember what they were, then the preloaded was increased a few clicks plus a few more tweaks because it shock it's head bad on very fast acceleration.Luke' says to leave front set as standard, but that also did not work for me. Luke was very helpful and gave me a lot of help ,but it was Mike who tweaked the front and I think he said there was to much rebound so made a few adjustments and a harder rear.Sorry I can not help more but it was a year ago .Luke is the man with suspension,but he has settings with the front set as standard so needs a bit of trial and error.
My problem now is although the bike rides and handles well in most conditions and roads, the rear is firm and over distance can be a problem for my back, the bike with the old shock set as standard was comfortable up to 200 miles, give or take ,but now only half that if I am lucky. If I softened the rear the head shake comes back.
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Here is a pic of the new springs in the middle and the old ones on each end. Do they look ok?
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Also when refitting the dampener rods, is there a spefics way the go in or out it back on and do up the bolt on the bottom
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Also when refitting the dampener rods, is there a spefics way the go in or out it back on and do up the bolt on the bottom
Lifted from Ravenrider's post on freassembling forks:
Here is how it needs to be done and why. I have worked on probably 50 sets of Gen I forks. Many have had damage to the oil flow stopper due to improper installation. If you look closely at that stopper, there is a machined collar that faces down in the fork.
Many home DIY mechanics will simply drop that piece into the lower fork tube, then slide the upper steel tube down into the lower leg, and proceed with the fork assembly.
WRONG
I have seen these bent, crushed, tipped at all angles and even missing.
The "ONLY" way to assure this piece is oriented into the lower leg correctly is as follows.
Install the bushing or metal slide (manual doesn't cover this part very well) onto the inner steel tube. use assembly grease on the slider and lube the outside of the tube with fork oil or a shot of WD-40 will work.
Tip this tube UPSIDE DOWN.
The oil flow stopper (actually a re-stricter) is tapered with that machined collar oor lip on the other end. Place the tapered end into the end of the upside down steel tube with the small end facing up. It really won't fit in wrong.
NOW, slide the aluminum lower leg over the steel leg. Holding the steel leg firmly in place, trapping the tapered oil stopper in place, turn the assembly to the up right orientation.
The shop manual shows the fork on it's side. What they don't tell you is that the special factory tool needs to be installed onto the cartridge to hold the assembly together while installing the bolt through the bottom of the fork. Most of us do not have this tool.
Just keep the assembly vertical for the balance of assembly.
This is where having aluminum vise jaws helps. With a helper or if you have a vice that can hold the fork well with out marring it all to heck, install the damper cartridge down into the vertical fork assembly. Without moving the inner steel tube in the aluminum lower, install the bolt up through the bottom of the aluminum fork leg and secure the Allen bolt into the damper rod. I have a 27mm socket welded onto a 20 inch length of 1/2 inch conduit with a hole drilled through the top of the conduit for a Phillips screw driver to slide through. This will slide over the damper cartridge to hold it as you tighten the bolt. If the damper rod tips to the side in the steel tube during this process.....STOP. Wiggle the damper cartridge a bit to get everything into proper alignment. If you can't get it to stay straight as you tighten the bolt, remove the steel tube from the aluminum lower and "START OVER".
If you don't ......the aluminum oil stopper will be damaged, the damper will bind and the forks will surely suffer extreme stiction and internal wear.
The wear caused by a damaged oil stopper can be seen in post #6 above. The scraped area on the rod is due to binding (miss-alignment) during installation.
Once the damper is in straight and the bolt torqued to specs. Use assembly grease on the rest of the components before installation. Install the upper fork guide, with guide washer. Use a driver to set it in place in the aluminum tube. Now the seal, snap ring and dust seal can be installed. Add the proper amount of oil, as measured from the top of the fork with the spring out and the tubes compressed. Install the spring, don't forget the thin rebound adjuster rod down the center, then the pre-load spacer and the fork cap.
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Happycallis: Your new springs look slightly shorter than standard, but not enough to make a huge difference - you could cancel it out via adjusting the preload on the fork caps.
I was out today and found my revised fork setup adequate / bearable. To summarise:
- Wearing the gear, about 13 stones.
- Preload mimimum / 5 rings showing.
- Compression - 18 clicks out from maximum.
- Rebound - 4 clicks out from maximium.
- Internal hollow metal spacers shortened by 10mm
- Oil height - reduced to 150mm from top (standard 140)
- 0.85kg K-Tech springs
- 10w Granville fork oil
With some reasonably heavy braking, the cable tie round one fork leg is indicating 122mm of travel, leaving some in reserve. Bumps are no longer quite as harsh through my hands, so I guess I can live with this setup for now. Will probably still look into getting the forks revalved or swapped over when she's off the road in the depths of winter.
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Planning for future mods, I emailed Maxton to see what they could do to sort the forks & how much. This is the spec sheet they sent me:
The forks on the Fazer 1000 are a very good pair of forks for general road
use but do have problems. The springs are too soft which can cause the
forks to bottom out under heavy breaking, this depends on your rider
weight and again how hard you ride the bike, the big problem is they do
not have enough rebound damping, which makes the forks spring back
very quickly when you let go of the brake or accelerate, this causes the
bike to run wide out of corners and makes the bike difficult to turn in to a
corner. The forks also have too much compression damping which makes
the bike kick off small bumps in the road. This problem can make the ride
uncomfortable. We modify the forks fitting harder springs to suit the type
of riding you do and also your rider weight, we also revalve the cartridges
increasing the rebound damping and reducing the compression
damping. We replace the existing hydraulic bump stops with spring bump
stops, which eliminates the severe patter that occurs when the forks
bottom out, this also gives the rider more; feel mid-corner when pushing
the front end. The fork conversion costs £405.00 plus worn parts: Seals £25
and Bushes £25. (ALL PRICES EXCLUSIVE OF V.A.T).
We have also found a problem with the internal damper cartridge
wearing out on Fazer 1000 forks. We have had forks that have only done
5000 miles with worn cartridge tubes. Unfortunately Yamaha will not sell
just the cartridge tube, you have to buy the complete damping assembly,
which is very expensive. We machine new cartridge tubes (only as part of
a Maxton conversion) manufactured from hydraulic steel tube, which will
never wear out. The replacement cartridge tubes cost £100.00 plus V.A.T
per pair. If the tubes are not replaced there will be never be any
damping in the worn area of the
cartridge tube.
Pretty much everything they mention above rings true to me and I know many people are happy with Maxton's service. I just can't seriously splash almost £700 sorting these forks out - that's almost half the price of the bike :eek I would doubt K-tech would be much cheaper (who knows, they might be even more expensive...) Might have to be plan B, C or D instead...- B - Race tech damping internals & do it myself - about £200 to sort rebound, probably the same again to do the compression valving.
- C - R6 5SL forks - about £300 for forks, front mudguard, heavier fork springs & 5SL axle.
- D - R1 front-end - not that keen as I previously found it harder to insure, also £500+ to fully sort out. Having said that, I'd rather pay £700 for a 2008 R1 front-end than Maxton's 'full monty'...
Hmmm... :\
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Hi all, I've been following this thread with a lot of interest. Last year I bought a well used 40k miles tatty gen 1, and have steadily been overhauling everything. I rebuilt the forks with new stanchions due to severe pitting , and generally I was ok with them ( used 5w oil ). All the adjusters are free and limit adjustments showed they are working.
More recently with available funds , I fitted Luke's R6 shock conversion as the stock rear shock was weeping . I'm a hefty 120kg , and despite endless adjusting and testing, I still find the rear spring a bit on the harsh/stiff side ( as posted above ). I've also found that with the R6 shock fitted, I get front end "patter" at local speeds ( upto say 50 mph ). above that it gets better. If I re-fit the stock shock the front end patter goes but the wheezing rear damping sound returns , so its knackered for sure. The R6 shock is very smooth though so I might ask Maxton about a softer spring.
Now a question for you experts please :
When I overhauled the forks, I measured the spring lengths as stock ( but could still be aftermarket I guess ) and I noticed that the pre-load adjusters are light blue anodised and have only 3 adjustment rings....can anyone throw any light on this ? I don't have anything to compare to, but my impression is that they are stopping me getting to low pre-load settings.
BTW, here's a tip for you if you fit the R6 rear shock.... buy the R6 bottom mounting bolt as well. Due to the thicker bottom fork design on the R6 shock (alloy vs steel) , the stock Fazer bolt shoulder isn't long enough and can cause the R6 shock bottom to twist slightly, which will side load the seal over time.
PS the bike is silver reg DK03...., last owned on the Wirral. If you recognise it, you might know the history.
cheers Loz
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Might have to be plan B, C or D instead...- B - Race tech damping internals & do it myself - about £200 to sort rebound, probably the same again to do the compression valving.
Hmmm... :\
So... I've plumped for option B. I ordered the Race Tech valving set FMGV S2047C from the States, which covers both Compression & Rebound :) . Ebay had a 15% discount code today, so after applying that it's costing $267.85 including Standard International shipping. I will of course get walloped a second time at Customs again, but as long as it doesn't work out too much over £300 in total I'll be happy enough.