Post by: midden on 28 January 2017, 01:52:44 pm
Removed the front cover, loads of crap around the front sprocket so the scoop out begins and suddenly once enough crud is removed to my horror the the sprocket wobbles.
The new wider nut has come off. I found the lock washer down below which had been bent round the nut as required
but some how flattened off.
I replaced the chain and sprocket in May, torqued correctly (imo) to the spec suggested for wider nut.
Post by: tommyardin on 28 January 2017, 03:55:02 pm
Yamaha are also recommending the use of Loctite, ensuring the new nut and the thread on the output shaft are thoroughly cleaned before applying Loctite and tightening up to 90Nm.
Bending the tab washer over 2 of the 12mm nut flats
The original torque was 70 Nm with the 9mm nut, and guys are worried that 90Nm will strip their output shaft threads.
I did not have Loctite but mine went up to the recommended 90Nm and I used nail varnish on the nut and thread in place of Loctite.
Have you ever tried to unscrew the top of a nail varnish bottle for the Mrs or G/F when it had nail varnish left on the thread of the bottle top, it's often pliers on the top and smashing the top to bits in the process.
I'm guessing if you go your own way with your own ideas when it comes to tightening the nut up there really is no come back, but saying that I used nail varnish/polish not Loctite, so be it on my own head.
Quick edit:
Ensure that the cut outs on the tab washer are pushed right into the clean splines of the output shaft if they are not the tab washer can spin with the nut and not be lined up with the splines then the tab washer will do absolutely nothing.
It's best to remove the front sprocket and clean thoroughly behind the sprocket and the sprocket itself otherwise you might just be tightening up on shit, and not have a face to face metal to metal contact to torque up to.
Post by: midden on 28 January 2017, 04:08:54 pm
Cheers for reply Tommy ;)
Luckily I hoarded the original nut so will get me out of trouble until new one arrives
Post by: daviee on 28 January 2017, 04:11:16 pm
I have heard that some folk are only tightening the nut up to 75Nm to 80Nm, Yamaha are recommending 90Nm with the new 12mm nut, and fit a new tab washer at the same time.
Yamaha are also recommending the use of Loctite, ensuring the new nut and the thread on the output shaft are thoroughly cleaned before applying Loctite and tightening up to 90Nm.
Bending the tab washer over 2 of the 12mm nut flats
The original torque was 70 Nm with the 9mm nut, and guys are worried that 90Nm will strip their output shaft threads.
I did not have Loctite but mine went up to the recommended 90Nm and I used nail varnish on the nut and thread in place of Loctite.
Have you ever tried to unscrew the top of a nail varnish bottle for the Mrs or G/F when it had nail varnish left on the thread of the bottle top, it's often pliers on the top and smashing the top to bits in the process.
I'm guessing if you go your own way with your own ideas when it comes to tightening the nut up there really is no come back, but saying that I used nail varnish/polish not Loctite, so be it on my own head.
Quick edit:
Ensure that the cut outs on the tab washer are pushed right into the clean splines of the output shaft if they are not the tab washer can spin with the nut and not be lined up with the splines then the tab washer will do absolutely nothing.
It's best to remove the front sprocket and clean thoroughly behind the sprocket and the sprocket itself otherwise you might just be tightening up on shit, and not have a face to face metal to metal contact to torque up to.
all good advice what i would say is it couldnt have torqued properly and the lock washer couldnt have been on right to cause it to come off
Post by: midden on 28 January 2017, 04:25:42 pm
Perhaps I did fit it wrong even following instructions.
That said, my original nut never came loose so perhaps there was never a problem other than the Yamaha mechanic fitted some nuts incorrectly ;)
Post by: Kenbob on 28 January 2017, 06:13:51 pm
Post by: Frosties on 28 January 2017, 08:06:07 pm
Post by: tommyardin on 28 January 2017, 08:17:21 pm
And this is proof that it doesn't' matter how big your nuts are. :rolleyes
:kiss LOL
Post by: tommyardin on 28 January 2017, 08:18:33 pm
Also agree it's good advice from Tomski :look ...................................it's a bloody first for him but at least it's a start :lol .
Oy! Foc off Tiger :eek
Post by: Frosties on 28 January 2017, 08:36:20 pm
Post by: tommyardin on 28 January 2017, 08:40:00 pm
Post by: tommyardin on 28 January 2017, 08:46:08 pm
I have heard that some folk are only tightening the nut up to 75Nm to 80Nm, Yamaha are recommending 90Nm with the new 12mm nut, and fit a new tab washer at the same time.
Yamaha are also recommending the use of Loctite, ensuring the new nut and the thread on the output shaft are thoroughly cleaned before applying Loctite and tightening up to 90Nm.
Bending the tab washer over 2 of the 12mm nut flats
The original torque was 70 Nm with the 9mm nut, and guys are worried that 90Nm will strip their output shaft threads.
I did not have Loctite but mine went up to the recommended 90Nm and I used nail varnish on the nut and thread in place of Loctite.
Have you ever tried to unscrew the top of a nail varnish bottle for the Mrs or G/F when it had nail varnish left on the thread of the bottle top, it's often pliers on the top and smashing the top to bits in the process.
I'm guessing if you go your own way with your own ideas when it comes to tightening the nut up there really is no come back, but saying that I used nail varnish/polish not Loctite, so be it on my own head.
Quick edit:
Ensure that the cut outs on the tab washer are pushed right into the clean splines of the output shaft if they are not the tab washer can spin with the nut and not be lined up with the splines then the tab washer will do absolutely nothing.
It's best to remove the front sprocket and clean thoroughly behind the sprocket and the sprocket itself otherwise you might just be tightening up on shit, and not have a face to face metal to metal contact to torque up to.
all good advice what i would say is it couldnt have torqued properly and the lock washer couldnt have been on right to cause it to come off
Daviee when you retrieved the Tab Washer after it had come off, were the sides still bent up in the locked position? if they were then I think the washer was never located properly.
Post by: midden on 28 January 2017, 10:02:25 pm
I just posted incase it wasn't merely my cock up.
I'll know not to waste thread space in future 😀
Post by: tommyardin on 28 January 2017, 10:22:18 pm
Daviee when you retrieved the Tab Washer after it had come off, were the sides still bent up in the locked position? if they were then I think the washer was never located properly.
Edit: Midden when you retrieved the Tab Washer after it had come off, were the sides still bent up in the locked position? if they were then I think the washer was never located properly.
Post by: fazersharp on 29 January 2017, 12:19:38 pm
I have some blue locktite but that is not the recommended one read it all here http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0)
The recommended one is 620 and is very expensive
Post by: tommyardin on 29 January 2017, 01:54:51 pm
Nail varnish as a thread lock - it may work but I would of thought that it is too brittle whereas the locktite I believe has bit of elasticity with it.
I have some blue locktite but that is not the recommended one read it all here [url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0[/url])
The recommended one is 620 and is very expensive
Cheers Sharpie,
I just read the posts in the link you put up.
So many people are saying don't tighten the nut up to 90Nm and don't use Loctite, how come so many guys know so much more that Yamaha do about a piece of machinery that Yamaha designed and produced.
It seems the Butcher The Baker and The Candlestick makers are all qualified to help you fuck up you motorcycle, by giving you their knowledgeable and poor thought out opinions and reasons.
I think I will listen to Yamaha and their expert advice and give Brian who works in the kitchen department at B&Q a miss.
If I want to know about kitchen taps I will ask Brian, because Yamaha know fuck all about kitchen taps.
I have a new front sprocket to go on my old girl in the next week or so, I have also purchased some Loctite, as I also have not followed Yamaha's advice, because i used nail varnish instead of the proper stuff.
Cleanliness is a thing to remember when fitting the sprocket nut, make sure everything in contact with the nut, washer, sprocket and gearbox face is clean and tighten it up to the recommended torque using the recommended Loctite 620, also check and re-check again that the tab washer is indeed located in the output shaft splines, and double flat the the sides of the tab washer against the nut with a tight snug fit.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122034038914 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122034038914)
Loctite 620 is pricey (See Link above)
I would be a little hesitant about buying this stuff from Hong Kong or China.
Some of the sales of the stuff on evilBay look like they are being sent from Australia as the prices are marked up in Aus $ dollars, but with a closer look they are being posted from China or Hong Kong, seems a bit deceitful to me.
I know there is no real 100% sure-fire way of knowing that you are getting the real stuff, as there is so much fake stuff out their, ranging from Motor products to shampoo.
There is an old saying 'If a deal seems to good to be true>>>>> blah blah blah'
The link above are UK based Seller, their feedback is good and their price seems about normal.
The first picture is ideal, the second picture is a No No, because it will allow the nut to rock/rotate under the immense power of the drive and will slowly hammer the washer flats back down as it snatches as the power goes on, the other thing is use the proper washer and not a bit of thick grey paper like I used. :lol
Post by: fazersharp on 29 January 2017, 04:35:17 pm
Your cardboard tab picture is a good guide that explains the difference between a full fold up.Just a little thing you have your cardboard tabs opposite each other but the tabs are pre creased washer are adjacent to each other.
More info on the subject here http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9920.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9920.0.html)
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,11851.msg130389.html#msg130389 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,11851.msg130389.html#msg130389)
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 January 2017, 04:53:06 pm
Post by: daviee on 29 January 2017, 05:06:09 pm
Post by: fazersharp on 29 January 2017, 05:58:32 pm
Am I correct in thinking that it wasn't the original nut and torque spec that was at fault but it was an issue with some of the output shafts being slightly undersized, thus allowing the nut to work free?.I think I can say that the general consensus is that yes that is the case, and it is the luck of the draw if your shaft is undersized which explains why some have the issue and others not.
My own research and theory points to the first 98 models being unaffected as the shafts were done in 1 factory and then the bike took off and the shafts had to be made in other factories to keep up with demand, then there is a cut off time when the problem was spotted and after that the shafts were in spec and the 12mm nut was issued as a fix instead of swapping the shafts on affected bikes. :lurk
Over the years on this forum not 1 98 bike has had the problem --- with the caveat being that it has to of occurred on a factory fitted nut, so as to rule out a replacement not being correctly fitted. Admittedly a 98 on original sprockets is getting rare although I have one.
Post by: YamFazFan on 29 January 2017, 06:39:44 pm
Am I correct in thinking that it wasn't the original nut and torque spec that was at fault but it was an issue with some of the output shafts being slightly undersized, thus allowing the nut to work free?.I think I can say that the general consensus is that yes that is the case, and it is the luck of the draw if your shaft is undersized which explains why some have the issue and others not.
My own research and theory points to the first 98 models being unaffected as the shafts were done in 1 factory and then the bike took off and the shafts had to be made in other factories to keep up with demand, then there is a cut off time when the problem was spotted and after that the shafts were in spec and the 12mm nut was issued as a fix instead of swapping the shafts on affected bikes. :lurk
Over the years on this forum not 1 98 bike has had the problem --- with the caveat being that it has to of occurred on a factory fitted nut, so as to rule out a replacement not being correctly fitted. Admittedly a 98 on original sprockets is getting rare although I have one.
That's interesting that no 1998 bikes seem to have been affected by this issue. Your theory sounds quite plausible.
Is the only difference in the nuts the extra couple of threads?.
I had the uprated nut fitted to my 2003 Foxeye last year but it was done at the garage, so although I supplied the new nut (and got given the old one back) I wasn't able to compare them together.
Post by: fazersharp on 29 January 2017, 08:10:43 pm
You should be able to tell if you have the deeper nut as the 9mm one finishes with just about 1 1/2 shaft thread showing and the 12mm finishes flush with the end of the shaft with no thread showing.
I have a 98 and I should add that I do trust the 9mm nut and keep an eye on it and an ear out for it and I have the 12mm nut ready to fit and will use the 12mm when I change the sprocket
More malarky here http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,19504.msg225613.html#msg225613 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,19504.msg225613.html#msg225613)
And here
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,17632.0.html (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,17632.0.html)
I can see mine from underneath the bike as I cleaned out the gunk not long ago, you can see the thread and the tab see the picture below chain in the forground and on the right
(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19958.0;attach=24542;image)
9mm nut as per yam factory
(http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11519.0;attach=9703;image)
Post by: darrsi on 30 January 2017, 06:36:03 am
Nail varnish as a thread lock - it may work but I would of thought that it is too brittle whereas the locktite I believe has bit of elasticity with it.
I have some blue locktite but that is not the recommended one read it all here [url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0[/url])
The recommended one is 620 and is very expensive
Cheers Sharpie,
I just read the posts in the link you put up.
So many people are saying don't tighten the nut up to 90Nm and don't use Loctite, how come so many guys know so much more that Yamaha do about a piece of machinery that Yamaha designed and produced.
It seems the Butcher The Baker and The Candlestick makers are all qualified to help you fuck up you motorcycle, by giving you their knowledgeable and poor thought out opinions and reasons.
I think I will listen to Yamaha and their expert advice and give Brian who works in the kitchen department at B&Q a miss.
If I want to know about kitchen taps I will ask Brian, because Yamaha know fuck all about kitchen taps.
I have a new front sprocket to go on my old girl in the next week or so, I have also purchased some Loctite, as I also have not followed Yamaha's advice, because i used nail varnish instead of the proper stuff.
Cleanliness is a thing to remember when fitting the sprocket nut, make sure everything in contact with the nut, washer, sprocket and gearbox face is clean and tighten it up to the recommended torque using the recommended Loctite 620, also check and re-check again that the tab washer is indeed located in the output shaft splines, and double flat the the sides of the tab washer against the nut with a tight snug fit.
[url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122034038914[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122034038914[/url])
Loctite 620 is pricey (See Link above)
I would be a little hesitant about buying this stuff from Hong Kong or China.
Some of the sales of the stuff on evilBay look like they are being sent from Australia as the prices are marked up in Aus $ dollars, but with a closer look they are being posted from China or Hong Kong, seems a bit deceitful to me.
I know there is no real 100% sure-fire way of knowing that you are getting the real stuff, as there is so much fake stuff out their, ranging from Motor products to shampoo.
There is an old saying 'If a deal seems to good to be true>>>>> blah blah blah'
The link above are UK based Seller, their feedback is good and their price seems about normal.
The first picture is ideal, the second picture is a No No, because it will allow the nut to rock/rotate under the immense power of the drive and will slowly hammer the washer flats back down as it snatches as the power goes on, the other thing is use the proper washer and not a bit of thick grey paper like I used. :lol
Hold on a sec Tommy, it's Yamaha that created this problem in the the first place, nobody else!
So if you think that there's a reasonable chance that a nut isn't going to correctly tighten on to a thread the way it really should then you surely must understand peoples apprehension of the chance of over tightening and fecking things up even further, then opening up a world of pain.
The fact that if a 9mm wide nut officially needs 70Nm, it would seem perfectly plausible to me that a similar threaded nut but with a few more threads and made 3mm wider would only be a plus, even at the same torque?
So even though they've suggested 90Nm, i can't see a problem in tightening it just a bit more to 80Nm. It's still 10Nm more than before and with a wider area to lock down. Adding a bit of Loctite as suggested will obviously only help further, but in reality these are attempts at fixing a problem that Yamaha caused which really shouldn't exist, especially when it involves a moving and weight bearing part.
Post by: fazersharp on 30 January 2017, 12:09:53 pm
Quote
if you think that there's a reasonable chance that a nut isn't going to correctly tighten on to a thread the way it really should then you surely must understand peoples apprehension of the chance of over tightening and fecking things up even further, then opening up a world of pain.
The fact that if a 9mm wide nut officially needs 70Nm, it would seem perfectly plausible to me that a similar threaded nut but with a few more threads and made 3mm wider would only be a plus, even at the same torque?
So even though they've suggested 90Nm, i can't see a problem in tightening it just a bit more to 80Nm. It's still 10Nm more than before and with a wider area to lock down. Adding a bit of Loctite as suggested will obviously only help further,
Yes that is a good point and I believe that the general consensus on here a while back was to go for the half way 80Nm with the wider nut.
Post by: tommyardin on 30 January 2017, 01:37:00 pm
Nail varnish as a thread lock - it may work but I would of thought that it is too brittle whereas the locktite I believe has bit of elasticity with it.
I have some blue locktite but that is not the recommended one read it all here [url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=14924.0[/url])
The recommended one is 620 and is very expensive
Cheers Sharpie,
I just read the posts in the link you put up.
So many people are saying don't tighten the nut up to 90Nm and don't use Loctite, how come so many guys know so much more that Yamaha do about a piece of machinery that Yamaha designed and produced.
It seems the Butcher The Baker and The Candlestick makers are all qualified to help you fuck up you motorcycle, by giving you their knowledgeable and poor thought out opinions and reasons.
I think I will listen to Yamaha and their expert advice and give Brian who works in the kitchen department at B&Q a miss.
If I want to know about kitchen taps I will ask Brian, because Yamaha know fuck all about kitchen taps.
I have a new front sprocket to go on my old girl in the next week or so, I have also purchased some Loctite, as I also have not followed Yamaha's advice, because i used nail varnish instead of the proper stuff.
Cleanliness is a thing to remember when fitting the sprocket nut, make sure everything in contact with the nut, washer, sprocket and gearbox face is clean and tighten it up to the recommended torque using the recommended Loctite 620, also check and re-check again that the tab washer is indeed located in the output shaft splines, and double flat the the sides of the tab washer against the nut with a tight snug fit.
[url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122034038914[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122034038914[/url])
Loctite 620 is pricey (See Link above)
I would be a little hesitant about buying this stuff from Hong Kong or China.
Some of the sales of the stuff on evilBay look like they are being sent from Australia as the prices are marked up in Aus $ dollars, but with a closer look they are being posted from China or Hong Kong, seems a bit deceitful to me.
I know there is no real 100% sure-fire way of knowing that you are getting the real stuff, as there is so much fake stuff out their, ranging from Motor products to shampoo.
There is an old saying 'If a deal seems to good to be true>>>>> blah blah blah'
The link above are UK based Seller, their feedback is good and their price seems about normal.
The first picture is ideal, the second picture is a No No, because it will allow the nut to rock/rotate under the immense power of the drive and will slowly hammer the washer flats back down as it snatches as the power goes on, the other thing is use the proper washer and not a bit of thick grey paper like I used. :lol
Hold on a sec Tommy, it's Yamaha that created this problem in the the first place, nobody else!
So if you think that there's a reasonable chance that a nut isn't going to correctly tighten on to a thread the way it really should then you surely must understand peoples apprehension of the chance of over tightening and fecking things up even further, then opening up a world of pain.
The fact that if a 9mm wide nut officially needs 70Nm, it would seem perfectly plausible to me that a similar threaded nut but with a few more threads and made 3mm wider would only be a plus, even at the same torque?
So even though they've suggested 90Nm, i can't see a problem in tightening it just a bit more to 80Nm. It's still 10Nm more than before and with a wider area to lock down. Adding a bit of Loctite as suggested will obviously only help further, but in reality these are attempts at fixing a problem that Yamaha caused which really shouldn't exist, especially when it involves a moving and weight bearing part.
That's very true that this issues was caused by Yamaha in the first place.
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance and according to what I have heard repaired bikes that have been damaged by this faulty part. Now this process can only go on for a certain period as the last of these machines FZS600 were produced 14 years ago, the replacement parts are still available directly from Yamaha and i have been told if you make a fuss they will post the parts to you free of charge to just to keep the piece, to get you off their back.
So many vehicles get recalls on them because of faults and the manufactures for the best part do their level best to rectify the situation and that is exactly what Yamaha have done tried their best to rectify it buy producing a replacement part the 12 mm nut, and have given instructions on how to fit the part that their engineers have come up with.
So it would still seem to me to be folly to ignore their instructions as they will have spent a lot of time wanting to get it right as they could not afford for this to crop up again, and pick torque figures out of the sky is just folly
Post by: fazersharp on 30 January 2017, 02:57:31 pm
By now if you are on OEM and have not had a loose nut or it fall off then I would say that your shaft is to spec, so technically perhaps you do not even need the thicker nut ?
So no deed for the thicker nut and if you did put one on then no need for 90Nm.
If the thicker nut along with 90Nm has came about from extensive testing (on an under sized shaft ) then is there still a worry needed about going all the way to 90Nm on an undersized shaft.
For the record I am convinced that my shaft is the correct size as are all 98 reg bikes BUT when I change sprockets I will be putting on the fatter nut with thread lock 620 and to 80Nm
Now then a while back there was a discussion about lube and the effect on torque settings - so wont threadlock be the same as adding lube to the thread.?
Post by: darrsi on 30 January 2017, 04:03:14 pm
On the other hand when we are talking about 80/90Nm how much of a difference would 10Nm make - 10Nm on its own is almost hand tight.
By now if you are on OEM and have not had a loose nut or it fall off then I would say that your shaft is to spec, so technically perhaps you do not even need the thicker nut ?
So no deed for the thicker nut and if you did put one on then no need for 90Nm.
If the thicker nut along with 90Nm has came about from extensive testing (on an under sized shaft ) then is there still a worry needed about going all the way to 90Nm on an undersized shaft.
For the record I am convinced that my shaft is the correct size as are all 98 reg bikes BUT when I change sprockets I will be putting on the fatter nut with thread lock 620 and to 80Nm
Now then a while back there was a discussion about lube and the effect on torque settings - so wont threadlock be the same as adding lube to the thread.?
No, it works in a different way.
If you remember, the correct way of "lubing" AND getting a true torque reading was by using engine oil.
Post by: YamFazFan on 30 January 2017, 05:56:38 pm
[/quote]
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance
[/quote]
Mine never got replaced at service or maintenance.
When I went to purchase the 12mm nut at the dealers they didn't seem to be aware of the issue at all.
They tried to sell me the old 9mm nut until I handed them the part number for the uprated one and asked them to just order that, rather than keep referencing back to parts list.
The independent garage I currently use knew all about the situation when I took the nut kit to them for fitting :)
Post by: fazersharp on 30 January 2017, 07:27:22 pm
On the other hand when we are talking about 80/90Nm how much of a difference would 10Nm make - 10Nm on its own is almost hand tight.
By now if you are on OEM and have not had a loose nut or it fall off then I would say that your shaft is to spec, so technically perhaps you do not even need the thicker nut ?
So no deed for the thicker nut and if you did put one on then no need for 90Nm.
If the thicker nut along with 90Nm has came about from extensive testing (on an under sized shaft ) then is there still a worry needed about going all the way to 90Nm on an undersized shaft.
For the record I am convinced that my shaft is the correct size as are all 98 reg bikes BUT when I change sprockets I will be putting on the fatter nut with thread lock 620 and to 80Nm
Now then a while back there was a discussion about lube and the effect on torque settings - so wont threadlock be the same as adding lube to the thread.?
No, it works in a different way.
If you remember, the correct way of "lubing" AND getting a true torque reading was by using engine oil.
Just remind me the way it works then, are you saying that torquing up dry will lead to under torquing as it bites too early and all torque settings are based on engine oil as lube
It seems that yam have got away with it because I dont know of any reports of shafts being replaced when the thread gets foced by the fault because by the time it happens to someone the bike is years out of warranty. So instead of a big recall they have got away with it by throwing a 10p nut at the problem.
Post by: darrsi on 30 January 2017, 08:34:41 pm
Then just to make sure i fucked up my rear caliper using copper grease with a torque setting of about 10Nm. :'(
Post by: tommyardin on 30 January 2017, 09:06:47 pm
On the other hand when we are talking about 80/90Nm how much of a difference would 10Nm make - 10Nm on its own is almost hand tight.
By now if you are on OEM and have not had a loose nut or it fall off then I would say that your shaft is to spec, so technically perhaps you do not even need the thicker nut ?
So no deed for the thicker nut and if you did put one on then no need for 90Nm.
If the thicker nut along with 90Nm has came about from extensive testing (on an under sized shaft ) then is there still a worry needed about going all the way to 90Nm on an undersized shaft.
For the record I am convinced that my shaft is the correct size :eek as are all 98 reg bikes BUT when I change sprockets I will be putting on the fatter nut with thread lock 620 and to 80Nm
Now then a while back there was a discussion about lube and the effect on torque settings - so wont threadlock be the same as adding lube to the thread.?
Sharpie you are always saying stuff like that LOL :thumbup
Post by: fazersharp on 30 January 2017, 09:48:43 pm
Post by: tommyardin on 30 January 2017, 09:55:07 pm
I still think Yamaha knows a lot more about Yamaha's than Joe average on here and I name myself amongst those.
So what I am saying I suppose is each to their own, we decide for our selves and if we foc it up, WE foc it up.
Mine went up to 90Nm with no trouble at all in fact I was quite surprised how easy it was to get it to 90Nm with my torque wrench, mind you the torque wrench is about 19 or 20 inches long so lots of leverage.
Everyone has their own opinion and you will always have disagreement whether you talking about Batteries ,Tyres, Oil, Spark Plugs, Filter or fuel additives.
Oh! I said earlier that I had an Afam front sprocket to go on the old girl when it is actually a Renthal.
And something else i will do is replace the 12 mm nut and washer with new when I put the new sprocket on, there is a school of thought that says that that when a nut or bolt has been under stress it deforms and does not return to its original state when slackened off, and, when you return the nut or bolt to the original torque it can snap as it was already stressed before tightening.
I know a lot of bolts on cars now have to be replaced once they have been torqued up especially high stress area like cylinder head bolts, so as this nut is suspect I will err on the side of caution and replace the fixing kit.
I purchased 3 nuts and 3 washers when I originally changed the nut for the 12 mm one last autumn.
Some where on here I did read that there was possibly some output shafts that were produced outside of Yamaha factory to help keep up with demand, don't know why it would just be the output shaft? what about the rest of the gear box?????
Anyway I read that the first of the FZS600 had the Yamaha shaft and once the fault was detected the later ones had the up to scratch shaft again, so it was just the intermediate years that seemed to struggle.
There is one fault with that reasoning though as I understand things and that is some of the early FZ6's had a similar problem.
All I know is that I bloody near burst a blood vessel trying to get the original nut off mine and ended up taking it to a garage and the guy took it off with a windy spanner and he had the compressor running as he did it.
:'( <<<< his problem is tight nuts :eek
Post by: tommyardin on 30 January 2017, 09:56:05 pm
You know what as I was writing that I was expecting you to respond to it, and gave it to you :)Thank you :kiss
Post by: tommyardin on 30 January 2017, 10:10:08 pm
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance
Mine never got replaced at service or maintenance.
When I went to purchase the 12mm nut at the dealers they didn't seem to be aware of the issue at all.
They tried to sell me the old 9mm nut until I handed them the part number for the uprated one and asked them to just order that, rather than keep referencing back to parts list.
The independent garage I currently use knew all about the situation when I took the nut kit to them for fitting :)
Hi YamFazFan,
A request went out to all Official Yamaha dealerships telling them to replace the nut and washer as a matter of course whenever an FZS 600 came into their workshops to have work done to them, and the replacement was free, and the workshop was to put a centre punch mark after the info on the frame plate near the steering head. There was never an official call back as it was deemed to be a relatively small number of machines afflicted with this fault/problem and judging by the numbers of FZS 600 still about some 14 to 19 years later it sort of bears this out. And to be honest if this wasn't the case would we be the proud owners of our bikes or would we all be on Honda or Quackers.
Post by: darrsi on 30 January 2017, 10:20:42 pm
That sounds so wrong....
Post by: tommyardin on 30 January 2017, 10:26:17 pm
Mine actually did the opposite, and it took my mechanic supposedly 40mins to get my nut off!It does on all levels :rolleyes
That sounds so wrong....
Post by: darrsi on 30 January 2017, 11:14:08 pm
Anyway, instead of a quick replacement on top of a tyre change, it became an expensive process, but in fairness i'd rather he fixed it than me.
I was told a LOT of heat was needed, in his words.
Post by: YamFazFan on 30 January 2017, 11:15:24 pm
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance
Mine never got replaced at service or maintenance.
When I went to purchase the 12mm nut at the dealers they didn't seem to be aware of the issue at all.
They tried to sell me the old 9mm nut until I handed them the part number for the uprated one and asked them to just order that, rather than keep referencing back to parts list.
The independent garage I currently use knew all about the situation when I took the nut kit to them for fitting :)
Hi YamFazFan,
A request went out to all Official Yamaha dealerships telling them to replace the nut and washer as a matter of course whenever an FZS 600 came into their workshops to have work done to them, and the replacement was free, and the workshop was to put a centre punch mark after the info on the frame plate near the steering head. There was never an official call back as it was deemed to be a relatively small number of machines afflicted with this fault/problem and judging by the numbers of FZS 600 still about some 14 to 19 years later it sort of bears this out. And to be honest if this wasn't the case would we be the proud owners of our bikes or would we all be on Honda or Quackers.
Hi tommyyardin
I wonder if because my Fazer was one of the last in the production run it wasn't affected by this issue?.
The original 9mm nut never came adrift thankfully, but it's got to be a good idea to fit the uprated nut anyway isn't it.
Post by: fazersharp on 30 January 2017, 11:15:36 pm
Mine actually did the opposite, and it took my mechanic supposedly 40mins to get my nut off!Clearly your shaft is in spec ------------ came from the 98 factory run
That sounds so wrong....
EDIT
Sorry I didnt see your later reply about it being fused on,being the reason it took so long -sounds like you have a thin shaft.
I wouldn't say my bike is pampered I just don't like getting wet, that's what the car is for. I doesn't get very dirty because of the dry riding and it is kept in a garage. I dont get to ride as often as I would like because of family and work commitments and so the mileage is also low its on 20k now 19 years old.
Post by: fazersharp on 30 January 2017, 11:18:12 pm
Yes I think you are right --- fit the new nut when you replace the sprocket.
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance
Mine never got replaced at service or maintenance.
When I went to purchase the 12mm nut at the dealers they didn't seem to be aware of the issue at all.
They tried to sell me the old 9mm nut until I handed them the part number for the uprated one and asked them to just order that, rather than keep referencing back to parts list.
The independent garage I currently use knew all about the situation when I took the nut kit to them for fitting :)
Hi YamFazFan,
A request went out to all Official Yamaha dealerships telling them to replace the nut and washer as a matter of course whenever an FZS 600 came into their workshops to have work done to them, and the replacement was free, and the workshop was to put a centre punch mark after the info on the frame plate near the steering head. There was never an official call back as it was deemed to be a relatively small number of machines afflicted with this fault/problem and judging by the numbers of FZS 600 still about some 14 to 19 years later it sort of bears this out. And to be honest if this wasn't the case would we be the proud owners of our bikes or would we all be on Honda or Quackers.
Hi tommyyardin
I wonder if because my Fazer was one of the last in the production run it wasn't affected by this issue?.
The original 9mm nut never came adrift thankfully, but it's got to be a good idea to fit the uprated nut anyway isn't it.
And I think as yours is one of the last by that time the fault with the thin shaft was noted and yours i s(maybe) ok--- read my post below
Post by: darrsi on 30 January 2017, 11:54:38 pm
Mine actually did the opposite, and it took my mechanic supposedly 40mins to get my nut off!Clearly your shaft is in spec ------------ came from the 98 factory run
That sounds so wrong....
Moot point, your bike craves a bit of rain.
Post by: darrsi on 30 January 2017, 11:58:51 pm
Every bike is obviously different but yours has been a tad pampered.
Post by: tommyardin on 31 January 2017, 12:22:14 am
Fazersharp, as much as i totally get your point about '98's not having an issue, i would've loved to see your exact bike under the strain of all year round weather for the last 18 years.
Every bike is obviously different but yours has been a tad pampered.
:lol We all pamper those we love. My FZS 600 is pampered, (as is my MR2 Spider is pampered) the Fazer gets treated well, never ridden purposefully in the rain, has the best cleaning products on it (Oh no! Personal preferences again) oil changed on or before due, spark plugs every 6k or every other oil change, air filter every other year bearing in mind the bike probably only gets ridden two or three times between beginning of Nov and end of Feb. I purchased some carbatooter balancing gauges about a year ago so I am hoping to be able to get around to balancing them this week along the the new front sprocket
Post by: darrsi on 31 January 2017, 06:41:41 am
Mine actually did the opposite, and it took my mechanic supposedly 40mins to get my nut off!Clearly your shaft is in spec ------------ came from the 98 factory run
That sounds so wrong....
It's very weird that you should say that, i dunno if it's coincidence or a mistake, but when i put my bike number plate into the AJ Sutton website it always shows a a '98 bike, even though it's an 'X' reg and a 2000 SP model?
Post by: tommyardin on 31 January 2017, 07:55:30 am
Yamaha put their hands up to that fault and have replaced free of charge the 9 mm nut with a 12 mm nut when bikes went in for a service or maintenance
Mine never got replaced at service or maintenance.
When I went to purchase the 12mm nut at the dealers they didn't seem to be aware of the issue at all.
They tried to sell me the old 9mm nut until I handed them the part number for the uprated one and asked them to just order that, rather than keep referencing back to parts list.
The independent garage I currently use knew all about the situation when I took the nut kit to them for fitting :)
Hi YamFazFan,
A request went out to all Official Yamaha dealerships telling them to replace the nut and washer as a matter of course whenever an FZS 600 came into their workshops to have work done to them, and the replacement was free, and the workshop was to put a centre punch mark after the info on the frame plate near the steering head. There was never an official call back as it was deemed to be a relatively small number of machines afflicted with this fault/problem and judging by the numbers of FZS 600 still about some 14 to 19 years later it sort of bears this out. And to be honest if this wasn't the case would we be the proud owners of our bikes or would we all be on Honda or Quackers.
Hi tommyyardin
I wonder if because my Fazer was one of the last in the production run it wasn't affected by this issue?.
The original 9mm nut never came adrift thankfully, but it's got to be a good idea to fit the uprated nut anyway isn't it.
As I said its all history now as far as Yamaha is concerned, the FZS 600 has a reputation for being a reliable bike with a bomb proof engine as long as it is serviced regularly, OK it had a quirky issues with the front sprocket nut letting go but, only on some bikes. I wonder what the mileage was on the bikes with the problem sprockets, I wonder if the front sprockets had been changed on any of them? if that was the case had the nuts been done up properly.
Anyway YamFazFun, me, I'm just an old Joe Blow who rides and enjoys his FZS600, but it would seem to me to be a wise thing changing the Nut and washer when changing the front sprocket, Yamaha call it an upgrade kit so it's certainly an improvement even if some have found that the original was a bastard to get off as I did, as I said I nearly bust a blood vessel in my neck straining to undo the bugger, even with a 3 foot length of 1 1/2" inch galvanised steel pipe over the socket wrench handle and still managed to bend the pipe. The windy gun just shocked the shit out of it and it eventually let go.
I think a lot of that issue is caused by the 620 Locite, but its better to have that removal problem, which is manageable, than to have the sprocket come off messing up your output shaft or worse still causing you to come off when it all goes tits up.
Post by: Jules-C on 31 January 2017, 10:58:54 am
Post by: fazersharp on 31 January 2017, 11:31:23 am
Mine actually did the opposite, and it took my mechanic supposedly 40mins to get my nut off!Clearly your shaft is in spec ------------ came from the 98 factory run
That sounds so wrong....
EDIT
Sorry I didnt see your later reply about it being fused on,being the reason it took so long to get off -sounds like you have a thin shaft.
I wouldn't say my bike is pampered I just don't like getting wet, that's what the car is for. I doesn't get very dirty because of the dry riding and it is kept in a garage. I dont get to ride as often as I would like because of family and work commitments and so the mileage is also low its on 20k now 19 years old.
Post by: tommyardin on 31 January 2017, 03:35:27 pm
If you fitting new nut and sprocket just dremel the old one off making sure you don't touch the threads on the end of the shaft.
LOL! How long you been a mind reader Jules? I am just sorting out the stuff to remove the 12 mm nut if it proves to be a bugger like the 9 mm one was.
The mouth wash, tomato kethup and bananas play no part in the operation.
Post by: tommyardin on 31 January 2017, 04:11:57 pm
Been experiencing grinding sounds in the chain department and a quiet knock on corners; thinking it related to the winter road crap and salt (how much lube do I have to throw at this not year old chain ffs) I figure a clean is in order.
Removed the front cover, loads of crap around the front sprocket so the scoop out begins and suddenly once enough crud is removed to my horror the the sprocket wobbles.
The new wider nut has come off. I found the lock washer down below which had been bent round the nut as required
but some how flattened off.
I replaced the chain and sprocket in May, torqued correctly (imo) to the spec suggested for wider nut.
Hey Midden!
I bet when you started this post off you did not realise it would go on so long.
well done buddy :lol
Post by: fazersharp on 31 January 2017, 07:10:34 pm
Who the Foc keeps mouth wash in their kitchen --------- or tomato sauce in their bathroom !If you fitting new nut and sprocket just dremel the old one off making sure you don't touch the threads on the end of the shaft.
LOL! How long you been a mind reader Jules? I am just sorting out the stuff to remove the 12 mm nut if it proves to be a bugger like the 9 mm one was.
The mouth wash, tomato kethup and bananas play no part in the operation.
Post by: tommyardin on 01 February 2017, 10:24:54 pm
Who the Foc keeps mouth wash in their kitchen --------- or tomato sauce in their bathroom !If you fitting new nut and sprocket just dremel the old one off making sure you don't touch the threads on the end of the shaft.
LOL! How long you been a mind reader Jules? I am just sorting out the stuff to remove the 12 mm nut if it proves to be a bugger like the 9 mm one was.
The mouth wash, tomato kethup and bananas play no part in the operation.
Who keeps mouthwash in the kitchen? You have obviously not had any of my Mrs cooking, :lol
Post by: darrsi on 01 February 2017, 11:19:51 pm
Who the Foc keeps mouth wash in their kitchen --------- or tomato sauce in their bathroom !If you fitting new nut and sprocket just dremel the old one off making sure you don't touch the threads on the end of the shaft.
LOL! How long you been a mind reader Jules? I am just sorting out the stuff to remove the 12 mm nut if it proves to be a bugger like the 9 mm one was.
The mouth wash, tomato kethup and bananas play no part in the operation.
Prisoners?
Post by: tommyardin on 08 February 2017, 11:47:09 pm
Actually at £10 its not that expensive (wonder how long it keeps after opening) I cant see myself using it for anything else.
Your cardboard tab picture is a good guide that explains the difference between a full fold up.Just a little thing you have your cardboard tabs opposite each other but the tabs are pre creased washer are adjacent to each other.
More info on the subject here [url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9920.0.html[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,9920.0.html[/url])
[url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,11851.msg130389.html#msg130389[/url] ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,11851.msg130389.html#msg130389[/url])
Agrees with you on that one Sharpie about the washer being pre-folded.
Looking directly down on the washer it is impossible to use both of the pre-folded areas as the folds are a quarter of the circumference away from each other, making four sided pattern and the sprocket nut like all others has six sides so no mater how you position the washer only one of the pre-folds will line up.
I think it was designed to have just one fold up and having the washer pre-folds this way gives you a very good chance that one of the folds will line up.
I just did an opposite one for good measure.
Post by: tommyardin on 09 February 2017, 12:09:35 am
So if anyone needs some for sprocket nut message me and i will post my bottle to you on the understanding you post it back when your done with it, that way a number of us can use it saving a purchase or two and all it will cost is perhaps 50 or 60p postage.
Post by: fazersharp on 09 February 2017, 10:46:11 am
The Loctite 620 is quite expensive and as commented and only ever likely to use it on the 'Front Sprocket Nut'Good man.
So if anyone needs some for sprocket nut message me and i will post my bottle to you on the understanding you post it back when your done with it, that way a number of us can use it saving a purchase or two and all it will cost is perhaps 50 or 60p postage.
I actually thought about the same thing, that I would buy one and pass it on to other members so long as they then pass it on to another member who needs it, starting a post and keeping it all there, sort of a community library.
I have a whole pot of red rubber grease that I will never use which I could break up and post out.
Post by: tommyardin on 09 February 2017, 04:55:21 pm
Same as that matey peeps, mahoosive great tin of Red Rubber grease 500gms/1.1lbs weight and £17 to buy, brilliant stuff for calipers and any place that is adjacent to rubber as it does not perish rubber like mineral grease does, plus its impervious to water.
I bought it for lubing the slider pins on the caliper brakes of my hairdressers car (MR2 Mk3), does not rot the gaiters.
I used it lubing up the lower rear suspension linkages and needle roller bearings when i did my suspension upgrade a month or two back, as its not affected by water the ideal lube in this very wet and vulnerable environment.
I have often thought about things like carb balancing gauges, quite expensive to buy and its something you only use once in a while maybe once every year or two.
That reminds me I still have not done mine bought the gauges 4 months ago and still in the box in my shed
A FOC-U Lending Library of stuff that everyone does not need to buy, but could be borrowed on the understanding its looked after and returned promptly when finished with. The cost to the borrower would be postage both ways, not sure how it could work or how one would set that up.
The problem I have found in the past with loaning stuff out is people either forget to return it or they lend it to someone else and it is now longer traceable.
But it is a thought.
The only thing I would not lend is my torque wrench after seeing a YouTube clip a few years ago of a guy knocking a clevis pin in on car handbrake linkage with his torque wrench :eek :'(
Post by: vinnyb on 12 March 2017, 12:04:11 pm
Post by: fazersharp on 12 March 2017, 12:18:41 pm
Post by: vinnyb on 12 March 2017, 12:29:40 pm
Thanks Fazersharp, mines only done 9000 miles and the original sprocket still looks like new. I don't think the cover had even been off before. Do you think it would be ok to leave this nut on until I need to change the sprocket? All appears to be fine at the moment
Post by: bandit on 12 March 2017, 12:56:14 pm
Post by: vinnyb on 12 March 2017, 12:57:30 pm
Post by: fazersharp on 12 March 2017, 05:34:53 pm
cool, taSome say that the age of the bike does not matter, others say that the output shaft was done to the wrong spec - too small but then that fault only started after 98 (my theory ) but some time later torwards the last ones the shaft issue was noted and changed with the correct size and every one else has to make do with the wider nut, which will not harm to use when the set is changed and in the meantime keep a close eye on it.
If it is nice and clean in there then you can see it if you lay down with a tourch, if you cant be arse to take the cover off, maybe best to take the cover off to see properly.
Post by: vinnyb on 12 March 2017, 08:59:52 pm
Post by: mogster on 12 March 2017, 09:19:35 pm
Post by: fazersharp on 12 March 2017, 09:51:47 pm
they are not tight :eekThey started off tight at the factory but due to an undersize shaft they can work loose, have a search on here and you will find loads of stuff about it.
Post by: Panthor on 12 March 2017, 11:43:10 pm
By the way Yamaha dealer is cheaper than eBay for it.
Post by: vinnyb on 13 March 2017, 12:04:35 am
Post by: Panthor on 13 March 2017, 08:44:29 am
Post by: vinnyb on 13 March 2017, 09:43:03 am
Post by: daviee on 13 March 2017, 05:55:02 pm
Post by: Adam2201 on 18 March 2017, 10:41:56 am
Came to change my chain and sprockets yesterday and when I bent back the lockwasher the nut was loose! I don't think it would drop off mine due to being the older model with the thicker sprocket cover, but it's annoying to find it like that after replacing the nut. Can't see any damage to threads, so I'm really not sure what's happened - I read through a few posts on here when I fitted it and torqued down to 80nm dry, so will try 90 with threadlocker this time and keep a better eye on it this time.
Bonus picture of old vs new sprocket just to shame myself - as you can see the old one is an advanced model with special bent teeth for chain retention ;) [size=78%]. Surprisingly, chain was still within spec when I measured it properly, and didn't seem to pull off the back sprockets excessively.[/size]
[/size]
20170317 233943 |
Post by: fazersharp on 18 March 2017, 11:18:36 am
I think the proper way to get the correct tourque is that all settings are done with engine oil and not dry. But if you do that then you cant use locking compound, so I gues locking compound talso takes the place of engin oil to get the correct tourque
How many miles did it take to get your teeth like that
Post by: Adam2201 on 18 March 2017, 11:34:01 am
My experience is from pushbikes, and before reading the threads on here I would have said that loctite was classed as a lubricant when you're doing something up (just like oil or grease), but I'm no expert. Will be going belt and braces on it tonight when I put it back together (taking the opportunity to regrease swingarm and shock bearings/bushings), so hopefully I won't see any issues with it after.
Reading some of the earlier comments now, I don't think I'd got the lockwasher spread right accross the nut flats last time, so it may well have vibrated loose from that - it makes sense that I did something wrong as it didn't have any issues before..
Edit: not sure why the font size keeps going down to 1pt!
Post by: Kenbob on 18 March 2017, 01:23:44 pm
I have a 2002 600 and it has the thinner nut still on it, I have faith in my mechanics ability to fit the nut correctly after He fitted a new chain and sprockets and I'm quite sure he wouldn't allow me to ride the bike knowing the he was the last person to refit it.
I guess it's yamahas way of saying hey guys we've addressed the issue with a bigger nut but if you can't fit it then that's your problem.
Post by: Fazerider on 18 March 2017, 01:51:19 pm
I can well believe that is the original sprocket. It certainly looks like it has 30,000 miles of wear and has the plastic cushioning to reduce noise… these are normally quite pricey (until Ognibene started offering them recently) so it’s not likely to have been changed.
My 12mm nut did the same thing a few months ago, it was still prevented from rotating by the lock washer, but appeared to have jumped one thread so the sprocket was able to slide slightly on the splines.
I don’t think you should beat yourself up about it. I torqued mine up correctly with threadlock too, the problem is nothing to do with undersized shafts (at least, not until they’ve been battered to death by a completely loose sprocket). Yamaha focced up by designing it with a completely unsuitable thread pitch, it’s far too fine for the sort of loads it experiences.
To get round this they applied a threadlock compound that was at the superglue end of the spectrum, hence the need for a 6ft breaker bar and the rifleshot sound effect when the original nut is undone. I suspect Yamaha had enough complaints about this from dealers that they switched to a weaker compound for later production.
Despite the extra turns of the deeper nut, the strength is marginal so it will eventually come loose. For most people the C&S will need changing before that point occurs provided you use a strong threadlock compound on a scrupulously cleaned thread.
I’d be interested to see a pic of the inner side of your sprocket, I noticed mine has heavy wear on that side so it is possible that a slight misalignment of the front and rear sprockets causes a sideways hammering effect on the front which might explain the nut getting bumped outwards.
(https://s19.postimg.cc/6b0ztyu5f/front_sprocket_wear.jpg)
Post by: Adam2201 on 18 March 2017, 02:04:40 pm
I think the bike had a Scottoiler at some stage, as when I got it the vacuum cap on #1 carb was missing, so it might explain the longevity if it is original. I use spray lube once a week or so, but I've not been fastidious about cleaning it so it's done well really.
Post by: mtread on 18 March 2017, 05:43:45 pm