Snapped exhaust studs and other fun issues

[returning rider]

Well just joined as I took a rush of blood to the head and took on a 2001 fazer 600.


Bought as a project as has snapped exhaust studs of course the 3 snapped ones are in the inner cylinders as be too easy if accessible!


Ok best thoughts on how i fix this bar ripping the engine out and getting to a machine shop?


Access is terrible, is it a big job to remove the radiator, still looks like a small pip is in the way, hard to see at all in a very cramped garage tbh.


the studs are well corroded, i see one has been replaced, criminal no copper grease fitted so even new studs were stuck!


on plus side the headers look ok cheap Grade stainless oem i presume but intact no signs of damage or corrosion.


The exhaust was missing the bolt next the clamp where down pipes join the back box, so was only hanging on that, clearly someone had a go before.


so now i need new studs and bolts IF i can the 3 damaged ones out somehow




apart from that runs ok done 27k and shows it been a commuter workhorse, indicators all work just loose lights light candles but working, few scrapes but fairing free of cracks or anything


hopefully not beyond repair


 

[returning rider]

Well after a week of applying penetrating oil, that the exhaust off, sheared another stud with literally no force, they are badly rotten and have zero strength left.


So net result have 3 sheared exhaust studs if looking at the bike front  from left to right on the inner or no.2 cylinder both were snapped when i bought it going by the black marks on the down pipes had been this way for a bit and the flange was rattling down at the bottom of the down pipes.  no.3 cylinder inner most stud sheared.


Sods law the easy to access 1 and 4 cylinder came off, studs looks rough 1 has been replaced looks new compared to the rest.


Access is not great, is there mileage in draining the coolant and removing the radiator?


on no.2 the access is really poor due what looks like an oil scavenge pip that runs form the sump to the head, obviously I would need to drain the oil to do this.


Question I am asking is will this give any better access as the frame looks to be in the way also?


Am I kidding myself on or is this an engine out job?


The studs sheared flush with the flanges so have just about 2 nuts depth left sticking out, but if they are that soft I imagine they will just shear flush with block if tried.


I don't have a welder at home to try welding a nut on and spin them off


reading this forum seems some have had a real nightmare with this?


Open to all suggestions or experience on this


thanks


Alan

[Gnasher]

Take the rad off and you should, depending on your tools and skill, be able to drill them out, retap and fit new studs.

[returning rider]

cheers will have a go when I have time if taking the radiator off gives better access might have joy with whats left of the studs with a blow torch and freezing spray try and shock it free plus a wee tap with hammer

[unfazed]

Remove the forks and tie the calipers out of the way to make it easier

[returning rider]

hi thought that as well, on this bike as not clips on bars just a case of undoing the pinch bolts and sliding the forks down and out?


Read you have to be careful with the speedo drive on front wheel anything to look out for there?


Planning to get on the centre stand rock back ans get an axle stand under the frame or engine at the front, will this give me enough to get the wheel an forks off?


I will check and clean the calipers, think it needs front pads but not throwing money at it until i see if this can fixed tbh, seen a few say SBS pads are good oem spec replacement pad?


never worked on a fazer but mech engineer to trade and know ,my way about cars


cheers for the input


Alan

[BBROWN1664]

yes, axle stand under the engine gives enough clearance.
Remove calipers, remove wheel, remove mudguard and then the forks.
Radiator is easy enough to remove too if the bolts are rusted away.

[unfazed]

hi thought that as well, on this bike as not clips on bars just a case of undoing the pinch bolts and sliding the forks down and out?
Read you have to be careful with the speedo drive on front wheel anything to look out for there?
Planning to get on the centre stand rock back ans get an axle stand under the frame or engine at the front, will this give me enough to get the wheel an forks off?
I will check and clean the calipers, think it needs front pads but not throwing money at it until i see if this can fixed tbh, seen a few say SBS pads are good oem spec replacement pad?
never worked on a fazer but mech engineer to trade and know ,my way about cars
cheers for the input
Alan

Biggest difference between cars and bike is the bolts are smaller and do not need the same level of torquing. Worth while buying a torque wrench and Halfords ones are reasonably priced and good. A 5nm to 50nm 3/8 drive will cover most bolts with the exception of swinging arm axle and wheel axles. All torque setting are in the Service Manauls in the download sections. The main manual covers 98-99 and two supplementary ones cover changes to the  00-01 and 02-03

Take care when removing the hoses from the engine an do not damage the anything some bits and no longer available new only second hand and difficult to find, especially the T on the engine pipe on the centre of the engine.
Use left hand drill bits starting at 3 mm and work up in 1 mm increments. If the drilling out does not work out and you have to drill them out completely, but there are stepped studs available in 7mm inner to 6mm outer. Drill and tap the hole for 7mm studs.Be careful not to drill more than 12mm deep as you can go through into the oil  area of the head at 20mm
If you have the space leave the wheel on an release the pinch bolts to drop them otherwise remove the wheel. Calipers will have to removed and tied back first
When putting the whee back on make sure you align the the speedo rotor tip with the slots on the wheel. Rotor is easily broken if you do not align them.

[returning rider]

Thanks for the advice and directly me to the downloads really helpful having workshop manual to check on.


So slide the front wheel out backward towards the bike to avoid snagging the speedo drive?


As I have enough stud left to get a couple of nuts on will try heat and shock first, due to to location not certain i could drill dead centre and the engineer in me would go nuts about that haha


looks like the oil return pipe will need to come off especially if applying heat, is there a risk in touching this ie should I leave well alone/ clearly this will need the oil drained out? 


so looking at removing seat and tank (couple of bolts turn off the tap remove hose?)  draining the oil and the water.


undo do brake calipers hang up to stop flex an brake lines. Undo front axle and pinch bolts, tap out spindle ease wheel backwards to avoid damage to speedo sensor, remove mudguard undo pinch bolts and drop out forks.


radiator remove hoses undo retaining bolts drop out.


apart from obvious thing like hose clips etc have i missed anything major?


cheers
Alan

[unfazed]

Not really. Wheel can come out forwards or backwards or is you have enough height drop it down. There should be enough slack after you undo the clip holding it to the brake hose and the holder attached to the caliper bolt. Take note of how it is routed by the caliper. Many have missed it and ended up with it touching the disc and it being cut through

[returning rider]

Cheers been too cold to look at it yet and need to make space to work on it will try jacking it up get an axle stand give me some height, or might chuck ratchet straps over the garage roof beams and under the yoke ease it up that way and slip axle stands under, just want to make sure its secure if working on it

[returning rider]

Well this bike keeps kicking my ass!


manged to get 2 of 8 studs out so far the most outer on each side, one with heat, few sharp blows and double nut method.


went and purchased a roll type extractor the 3 pins in sized socket type, worked great on the only stud it can get into!


Either the frame fouls the use of the extractor or the engine casing itself blocks access.


Not taken the radiator or forks off yet as not convinced it will help the access is fouled by the frame not the radiator.


Have tried heat and sharp knock on a couple just stripping the nuts out if i try the 2 nut method, will spin both nuts on the stud before it budges.


Short of taking the engine out and drilling them all out any obvious tricks I am missing? I don;t have a welder to hand to weld a nut onto the stud, plus concerned it will work harden the stud making it hard to drill out .


So now have 6 studs still in place 3 full height but badly corroded and 3 sheared off about half way down still about 10mm showing, cent even get a pipe wrench in to apply brute force an shear off flush or below.


my only other thought is apply silly amounts of heat to the head around the stud and use m6 connector nuts cut to size with a locknut on the end, the theory being the increased surface area like a double height nut will grip more thread area and less likely to just spin.


open to suggestions of those who have endured this pain.


other answer is break it for parts try and get something back on it

[agricola]

Ultimately, this is recoverable but will take patience and effort and maybe some cash.. Consider hiring an induction heater, I have heard and seen marvellous results with these, they apply heat only where you want it, to red hot.. To drill broken studs out, you will need to remove all assemblies to obstruct perpendicular access to the studs, and some proper engineering skill to mark, drill and tap for the repairs

[unfazed]

Engine is not that difficult to remove, a bit fiddly, but that's it. See the manual for direction on it
While it is out you can check the valve clearances before putting it back in.

[returning rider]

cheers have seen induction heaters they are very useful but in this application they will case harden the stud and not directly heat the cylinder head.


I am mechanical engineer to trade so no issue there but looking at no way in hell can drill out in place access fouls direct line if sight ie drill perfectly flat. Main issue is lack of space and workshop tooling and equipment ie oxyacetylene.


Few other things to try but looks like engine out if they don't work.


baffles my why use mild steel in alloy head with tiny m6 threads

[unfazed]

At least you can drill out mild steel easy enough, Imagine the issues with some Suzukis, where they use Stainless bolts bolts to hold on the headers in an aluminium cylinder head   

[returning rider]

very true that would be a ball ache SS is a bugger to drill out.


The 2 studs I have out so far are coated in what looks like exhaust past paste, definitely not galling or the white corrosion i was expecting. This might explain why the Mapp gas torch was having no effect as exhaust paste doesn't break down with heat.


Someone has definitely been at this before only 2 original double depth nuts were fitted all the rest were normal nuts with a lock nut.


One stud is stainless even it took huge shock loading to break free again was coated in what looks like exhaust paste, ran a tap down the head cleared it out all seems fine at least.


Just 6 more to go!   

[returning rider]

double nut method not working stripping thread out before it moves, one i thought was moving just sheared at the non threaded part of the stud.


is it safe to run the engine with no down pipes attached? i have no worries doing this with a car not sure about a bike? try and get some heat in the head then attack it with mapp gas torch see if that helps



last roll of the dice is pipe wrench expect that to shear them off flush so then into drilling out.


currently have 2 studs removed, 2 still in place and 4 sheared off.


the joys eh

[Gnasher]

cheers have seen induction heaters they are very useful but in this application they will case harden the stud and not directly heat the cylinder head.

Err no..............  Case hardening takes several cycles of heating and cooling, plus the carbon content of the steel is a major factor, these are low ish carbon content, basically it will do very little. The use of an induction coil is a good idea, they heat both the stud (to break the corrosion) and the head, they've never failed to work for me if they can be loosened. 

I am mechanical engineer to trade so no issue there but looking at no way in hell can drill out in place access fouls direct line if sight ie drill perfectly flat. Main issue is lack of space and workshop tooling and equipment ie oxyacetylene.

As said before depending on your skill and tools you should be able to drill them out.  I've done, well I've lost count, never as yet had to take the engine out.  Remove the rad at most remove the front end at the head stock at worst.   Drill out the broken off studs, often cheap easyouts don't work.  You need to drill out the whole stud including the thread, retap, make up or have made a threaded stud the size of the hole now in the head.  Screw a length into each hole, using bearing fit, redrill/tap the plugs, fit new studs, make sure you cooper slip the threads.  Job done. 

baffles my why use mild steel in alloy head with tiny m6 threads

Its cheap. 

Yes you can run the engine all day long without the headers, but why?   I wouldn't want to be you neighbours (if you've got any) either 


       

[returning rider]

Thanks for the reply, fair point about the carbon content of the bolts i am used to working on larger stuff it is an issue there basically in the nuclear or aviation sectors once heat is applied the studs are junked and NDT performed on the casting.
Given its -2 here just now the idea behind running the engine was to get heat into the head, as it stone cold just yes mapp torch can do the same job but takes a LONG time as the engine is very big heat sink.
Will have a go when I have more time the oil pipe is so close to a stud I think it will need to come off. The radiator is not that much of an issue as angle allows access under it but the water hoses and pipes could do with being removed.
Bought this as a cheap toy its so far nothing but trouble, but I knew it had 2 bad studs so should have done my research, as not a big issue on most car engines mostly.

Thanks for all the comments reassuring that the engine does not need to come out at least.