Post by: Disorderlypunk on 15 March 2018, 10:24:05 pm
HOWEVER
no one seems to say what they have settings at for preload, compression, rebound
anyone out there using the 15w oil with altered settings (mcn settings go out the window with thicker oil)
forget town riding as i will live with whatever it is - i want it set for when i ride hard and fast so anything as a starting point on settings will be an improvement to its current state (oil change is needed so will do it as soon as oil is here)
Post by: celticbiker on 16 March 2018, 06:42:03 am
Post by: tommyardin on 16 March 2018, 09:04:32 am
ok so after searching the forum today some old posts talk about using 15w oil in the front end for a better feel
HOWEVER
no one seems to say what they have settings at for preload, compression, rebound
anyone out there using the 15w oil with altered settings (mcn settings go out the window with thicker oil)
forget town riding as i will live with whatever it is - i want it set for when i ride hard and fast so anything as a starting point on settings will be an improvement to its current state (oil change is needed so will do it as soon as oil is here)
Hello Punk,
Assuming your talking about your FSZ 600, there is very little you can do to adjust anything on the standard FZS 600 damper rod forks as they leave the factory, without major surgery.
The compression is a combination of spring and the oil and the rebound the same.
The speed of compression and the rebound are controlled by the thickness of the oil squirting though a 5 mm hole in the base of the damper rods, thicker oil ...... blah blah blah, you know the score.
The pre-load adjuster on the top of the later models stanchions make very little difference with the standard (Dual rate) springs in, as they are harsh when compression reaches the spring rate change and rebound rapid at first because of the same but slows a little when it reaches the lighter/softer part of the spring.
People say that the standard FZS Fazer 600 springs are progressive but in fact they are dual rate, there is a definite step/change in the spring coils, progressives would change spring rate slowly over its total length, hence progressive. The dual rate springs crash your wrists and jar you when compression reaches that point and also make the bikes handling a little unpredictable when riding around bumpy corners if you hit fast bumps because of that change in the spring rate both on compression and rebound.
True progressives would give you a smooth transition.
Thicker oil in damper rod forks can cause something like hydro lock under certain situations, IE: The oil can not pass quick enough through that 5 mm hole in the damper rods and effectively cause the forks to go solid/seize.
Some one told me, and I have mentioned it in here before so sorry for repeating myself, it is like a child's water pistol if you squeeze the trigger very very softly the water will dribble out of the nozzle, if you pull the trigger at a normal sort of speed the water will squirt out and travel some distance, if the yank the trigger in it will lock/jam the trigger because the water can not pass through the nozzle quick enough, a form of hydro lock, the same principle applies to damper rod forks hit a fast/sharp bump on a fast bend and the forks can stiffen up, worse case scenario lock up.
The picture in this post i have posted before when this sort of topic come up and i make no apologies for posting it again as it shows that the original Yamaha spring on right is not a true progressive spring, to the left of the Yammy spring is an Ohlins linear spring. Chalk and cheese when riding.
To be honest that is the way I would recommend anyone go, do the fork cartridge emulators if you have the finances, time and ability, but they are the extra bit of icing on the cake, the linear springs are the cake and 50% or more of the icing. And it such any easy job to do, the forks stay in the bike, just make sure the front wheel is off the ground (Centre stand with wooden blocking up under the down pipes) just slacken the top yoke pinch allen bolts a tad, make sure the pre-load adjusters are completely unwound then undo the top yoke 17mm cap nuts, go steady, a cloth over the top of the cap nut will help if the cap pops off when its undone, top disk washer out, spacer out hook the old spring out with a bit of wire coat hanger, reverse the procedure and the job is done, honestly its a couple of hours work at the very very most, and if you ever do it again it will take you half the time.
once its all done you can then change the oil.
If you are around 12 to 14 stone fully togged up to ride try 15 weight proper fork oil, I used Silkolene fork oil, but any will do.
Oh! one thing I did not mention the old fork oil will smell like rotten fish and be dark pearlecent in colour. :eek :rolleyes
Post by: darrsi on 16 March 2018, 09:21:31 am
The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.
15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 16 March 2018, 10:07:43 am
will fire the 15w in and see how she handles, if its a bit too firm i can easily revert back to 10w
cheers guys
Post by: tommyardin on 16 March 2018, 10:25:25 am
NEVER heard of forks locking up, EVER?
The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.
15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.
That is probably because you have the correct viscosity oil in them, or do not ride hard.
I agree totally the pre-load adjuster a next to useless.
Can you not see though if you have a fluid that is to thick to pass through a certain size hole quick enough when being forced it will slow the compression down to the point of locking, especially if more force is added rapidly as in hitting a fast bump on fork compression, it ain't rocket science.
Do a search on the internet about Hydro Lock how and why it happens, it can happen inside an internal combustion engine just the same, where hyrdo lock can occur in high compression engines, it can bend con rods and fuck engines.
It's Ok that some don't know about it, as it usually does not effect people, but that does not mean it does not happen or exist, ask the poor sod with the bent conrods and/or knackered crankshaft, or the poor foccer that came off his motorbike when cornering hard because because something weird happened to his front end when he hit a bump, it's un-explainable I just don't know what happened.
Post by: tommyardin on 16 March 2018, 10:32:04 am
All I am/was trying to do was to be helpful and offer some advice and thoughts on a phenomena that can and does happen, now if you think it's a crock of shit fine.
Good luck to all who are trying to understand and improve their suspension on a budget bike with Damper Rod forks.
tommyardin has left the building, Oh! hello Elvis let me get that door for you mate.
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 16 March 2018, 10:37:00 am
On that note I am going to shut the fuck up.
All I am/was trying to do was to be helpful and offer some advice and thoughts on a phenomena that can and does happen, now if you think it's a crock of shit fine.
Good luck to all who are trying to understand and improve their suspension on a budget bike with Damper Rod forks.
tommyardin has left the building, Oh! hello Elvis let me get that door for you mate.
dont worry tommy we are listening and thankfully i know what hydrolock is from the classic car race engines we have had to rebuild
Post by: darrsi on 16 March 2018, 02:15:20 pm
NEVER heard of forks locking up, EVER?
The adjusters on top of the forks were useless when i had them, i now have earlier model forks that don't have them and they've been fine for me, although admittedly i'm not normally chucking the bike about at high speed but if that's what you're intending to do then you need to do more research.
15w oil most definitely firms up the front end enough to give it a much more controlled feeling, and i would certainly recommend it over 10w. Some people have even gone a bit heavier by mixing oils but i think that would be a game of luck and chance until you got it right.
And obviously your own weight, top box, luggage and the odd passenger can change matters too.
If you're a lightweight carrying none of the above then you may find standard oil works just fine, but i would say take a punt and go for the 15w as i personally don't think you'll be disappointed.
That is probably because you have the correct viscosity oil in them, or do not ride hard.
I agree totally the pre-load adjuster a next to useless.
Can you not see though if you have a fluid that is to thick to pass through a certain size hole quick enough when being forced it will slow the compression down to the point of locking, especially if more force is added rapidly as in hitting a fast bump on fork compression, it ain't rocket science.
Do a search on the internet about Hydro Lock how and why it happens, it can happen inside an internal combustion engine just the same, where hyrdo lock can occur in high compression engines, it can bend con rods and fuck engines.
It's Ok that some don't know about it, as it usually does not effect people, but that does not mean it does not happen or exist, ask the poor sod with the bent conrods and/or knackered crankshaft, or the poor foccer that came off his motorbike when cornering hard because because something weird happened to his front end when he hit a bump, it's un-explainable I just don't know what happened.
Keep your hair on, i said i have never ever heard of it happening, i didn't say it had never happened to me, which it hasn't either by the way. :lol
Post by: tommyardin on 16 March 2018, 09:31:56 pm
Using CAPITAL LETTERS in text indicates that someone is shouting which often means that someone passionately disagrees with something that is done or said.
If one passionately disagrees with something that has been said it seems to me you are either saying they are wrong or saying they are mistaken or worse case scenario calling them a liar.
Oh! Hang on I am not bald I still have my crash helmet on.
:finger Darrsi :finger
Post by: darrsi on 16 March 2018, 09:55:57 pm
Actually I am as bald as a coot so the retaining of my hair follicles does not come into the equation.
Using CAPITAL LETTERS in text indicates that someone is shouting which often means that someone passionately disagrees with something that is done or said.
If one passionately disagrees with something that has been said it seems to me you are either saying they are wrong or saying they are mistaken or worse case scenario calling them a liar.
Oh! Hang on I am not bald I still have my crash helmet on.
:finger Darrsi :finger
Trust me, i ain't known for shouting, my hearing is way too sensitive to even contemplate it.
Dunno why you're getting your knickers (don't wanna know) in a twist, or getting textually aggressive?
Just giving my honest opinion! :lol
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 16 March 2018, 10:25:43 pm
Post by: tommyardin on 16 March 2018, 10:55:26 pm
Post by: tommyardin on 16 March 2018, 11:03:44 pm
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.
But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words. :lol
Post by: darrsi on 16 March 2018, 11:05:26 pm
STOP SHOUTING PUNK WE ARE NOT DEAF
I can hear you talking from here, no need to have such colourful language :lol
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 16 March 2018, 11:06:12 pm
STOP SHOUTING PUNK WE ARE NOT DEAF
i am now at least in my honest opinion lol
Post by: darrsi on 16 March 2018, 11:06:44 pm
Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.
But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words. :lol
Meeee....pedantic....no way? :lol
Post by: darrsi on 16 March 2018, 11:16:15 pm
Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.
But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words. :lol
In my defence, i've never been dishonest on this site because in my eyes that would be unnecessary and just wrong!
Here to "try" and help, i generally won't overstep my knowledge, but will have a laugh in the process.
Due to the age of my bike, buying it in a state, and spending time, money and patience i've got to learn lots myself over the years. Call it self taught if you wish.
I listen too, honest, i'm a learned type of person, i have to be, my job is hectic and technical.
Tommy, if i've somehow offended you AGAIN, it wasn't on purpose, HONESTLY. ;)
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 12:31:46 am
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 12:57:12 am
Post by: darrsi on 17 March 2018, 08:38:55 am
Bit rude of me, sorry about that, but
That's cool, straight talking i can deal with :lol
Post by: darrsi on 17 March 2018, 09:15:31 am
Actually, the words Honest and Opinion should not go together.
Who is to say anyone's Opinion is Honest as it is just an Opinion, a Humble Opinion is good to go. and of course has value.
But that is all it is, an Opinion, and it is not absolute in any way, therefore should not be called Honest.
Saying my Honest Opinion is claiming the the moral high ground and saying I am right, but lets not get pedantic about words. :lol
Would you prefer a dishonest opinion though?
Technically that would give someone a free pass to say all sorts of shite.......but back it up with "Only joking." :rollin
Post by: hopefiendboy on 17 March 2018, 09:40:27 am
Re the fork mod- you mentioned the linear rate spring would be a pretty decent improvement on the original springs- can you send a link to a suitable model of spring for this? I am 75kg in my birthday suit so probably 85kg or so loaded up with gear.
The other thing is to make sure that these springs are compatible with the YSS emulators that MandP sell so if I want to go down that route in the future then I can!
Thanks in advance!
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 09:49:25 am
But I will just add, as stated earlier if it is an Opinion it is neither honest or dishonest, it can be a genuine Opinion, a firmly held Opinion, or humble Opinion, but that does not make it honest or right, but something that someone has thought through and chosen to believe, and a lot of us believe a lot of stuff that just is not true.
Under that tough exterior of yours I believe that there is a genuine kind hearted, thoughtful man.
But then I rethink the last statement above about us believing stuff that isn't true, and come to a firmly held Opinion that you are just a twat. :eek
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 10:04:58 am
Hi
Re the fork mod- you mentioned the linear rate spring would be a pretty decent improvement on the original springs- can you send a link to a suitable model of spring for this? I am 75kg in my birthday suit so probably 85kg or so loaded up with gear.
The other thing is to make sure that these springs are compatible with the YSS emulators that MandP sell so if I want to go down that route in the future then I can!
Thanks in advance!
Hi Hope,
You are about the same weight as me. I went for these spring on the advice of a serial suspension modder on here. The advice was excellent.
There is also a post going on in here at the moment that might be heplfhul I will try and post a link to it. I promise I will not do to you what a mate did to me saying he was posting a link to a site that was selling Pergeot mirrors off cheaply, my Mrs was after one for her car, I like an idiot just clicked on the link he sent, Mrs sat beside me to arrive on the foulest porn site you could imagine, I now know what scat is :eek
http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,23873.msg276875.html#msg276875 (http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,23873.msg276875.html#msg276875)
Link for Ohlins Linear springs
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/OHLINS-Set-Front-Fork-Springs-Weight-85kg-for-Suzuki-Sv650-1999-2002/650021071?iid=273072093238&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D43781%26meid%3Da220411ca5cc489ea9ebe328c2842933%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D401494115806%26itm%3D273072093238&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/OHLINS-Set-Front-Fork-Springs-Weight-85kg-for-Suzuki-Sv650-1999-2002/650021071?iid=273072093238&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D43781%26meid%3Da220411ca5cc489ea9ebe328c2842933%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D401494115806%26itm%3D273072093238&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851)
Do worry that the add say Suzuki SV650 1999-2002 springs, they fit just fine.
They are in fact just a little shorter but this difference can be made up by adding a few large diameter penny washers to the top tubular spacer in the forks.
Post by: darrsi on 17 March 2018, 11:19:44 am
"...But i will just add..." :rolleyes
The Chuckle Brothers were right, two's company....... :rollin
Post by: matt7chunk on 17 March 2018, 02:26:27 pm
15w going in my forks next weekend and hoping to get linear springs matched to my weight when I have the funds,
When changing springs will the damper rods be ok or should I do the emulator mod at same time ?
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 17 March 2018, 03:39:01 pm
Think we need a rename on this thread ""Tommy v darrsi The bitch off"" :lol
was thinking the same thing lol
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 10:52:29 pm
Think we need a rename on this thread ""Tommy v darrsi The bitch off"" :lol
15w going in my forks next weekend and hoping to get linear springs matched to my weight when I have the funds,
When changing springs will the damper rods be ok or should I do the emulator mod at same time ?
Ceramic Hobs at 30 pastries.
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 11:04:19 pm
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 11:05:30 pm
Post by: matt7chunk on 17 March 2018, 11:11:33 pm
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 17 March 2018, 11:13:18 pm
celebrity deathmatch |
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 11:30:05 pm
I loved them lads like brothers, I still keep up to date with some, like my mate Wildplumb, but I really do miss the none stop wind up, keep on taking the piss right up to the point a little red light almost flashes in the middle of a bloke forehead than stop before he kills you, lol then say to him about half an hour afterwards 'You alright mate you seen a bit quiet'
lol then take 3 steps backwards rapidly. :lol
Post by: tommyardin on 17 March 2018, 11:32:21 pm
:rolleyes
Post by: darrsi on 17 March 2018, 11:49:33 pm
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 17 March 2018, 11:55:18 pm
and then i go and instigate it some more with celebrity deathmatch lol
the winding up is one of the main things i miss from the building sites
Post by: Slaninar on 18 March 2018, 07:16:20 am
FFS darrsi leave it mate, this could go on and on you bitch me I bitch you back and have a pop at everything each other says, and it never ends.
But I will just add, as stated earlier if it is an Opinion it is neither honest or dishonest, it can be a genuine Opinion, a firmly held Opinion, or humble Opinion, but that does not make it honest or right, but something that someone has thought through and chosen to believe, and a lot of us believe a lot of stuff that just is not true.
Under that tough exterior of yours I believe that there is a genuine kind hearted, thoughtful man.
But then I rethink the last statement above about us believing stuff that isn't true, and come to a firmly held Opinion that you are just a twat. :eek
Not a native English speaker, but the dictionary says that an opinion can be honest:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/honest (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/honest)
Honest as saying what you really do think (believe). My honest opinion is that the Earth is not flat, but I've never traveled a full circle so I could be wrong. Possibly, but not probably.
As for the topic, I agree with your first post about using the correct rate (best not progressive) springs, appropriate valves and oil viscosity.
I've put some steel inserts between the preload adjusters and FZS's standard springs, and added some more viscous oil, getting a bit better handling on the road and the track. At least for my taste. It's far from an optimal, but a rather cheap fix (or "fix", depending on one's criteria).
I also agree that using an oil that is (way) too viscous can cause problems.
P.S. If you're that much into Darrsi, why not ask her for a drink, that's what grown ups do. :rollin
Post by: tommyardin on 18 March 2018, 07:44:33 am
FFS darrsi leave it mate, this could go on and on you bitch me I bitch you back and have a pop at everything each other says, and it never ends.
But I will just add, as stated earlier if it is an Opinion it is neither honest or dishonest, it can be a genuine Opinion, a firmly held Opinion, or humble Opinion, but that does not make it honest or right, but something that someone has thought through and chosen to believe, and a lot of us believe a lot of stuff that just is not true.
Under that tough exterior of yours I believe that there is a genuine kind hearted, thoughtful man.
But then I rethink the last statement above about us believing stuff that isn't true, and come to a firmly held Opinion that you are just a twat. :eek
Not a native English speaker, but the dictionary says that an opinion can be honest:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/honest (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/honest)
Honest as saying what you really do think (believe). My honest opinion is that the Earth is not flat, but I've never traveled a full circle so I could be wrong. Possibly, but not probably.
As for the topic, I agree with your first post about using the correct rate (best not progressive) springs, appropriate valves and oil viscosity.
I've put some steel inserts between the preload adjusters and FZS's standard springs, and added some more viscous oil, getting a bit better handling on the road and the track. At least for my taste. It's far from an optimal, but a rather cheap fix (or "fix", depending on one's criteria).
I also agree that using an oil that is (way) too viscous can cause problems.
P.S. If you're that much into Darrsi, why not ask her for a drink, that's what grown ups do. :rollin
Thank you Slanlinar for your words of wisdom, your not darrsi's brother of dad are you????? just asking. (Let me see if I can get that little red light flashing)
Is an opinion the same as a choice then, I can choose not to like something and then give an opinion on it but is not absolute or the truth in anyway, it is just an Opinion that belongs to me, and I may strongly hold to it, but that does not make it fact or the truth.
Anyway thank you Slaninar for adding your Opinion, I feel you may have the same effect as a stick wiggling about in a hornets nest, but you may not agree, but that is your Op...............
Here we go again.
PS: I agree about the world being flat if it was round like some are saying the water would all run off, I don't know! Some people have not thought that one through. :lol
Post by: Slaninar on 18 March 2018, 08:00:26 am
Thank you Slanlinar for your words of wisdom, your not darrsi's brother of dad are you????? just asking. (Let me see if I can get that little red light flashing)
Why, do I look like Darrsi? :)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQyWVeq1gPm4Y69nrOrN9kY-5Kk-Xe2LRI1ILcg4CQZjzIfnm3l)
Is an opinion the same as a choice then, I can choose not to like something and then give an opinion on it but is not absolute or the truth in anyway, it is just an Opinion that belongs to me, and I may strongly hold to it, but that does not make it fact or the truth.
You can define opinion whichever way you like. However, when talking/discussing with other people, it helps if you use the terms everybody understands, so you are certain to be talking about the same thing. A common example from my bicycle wrenching practice is when someone says the bike won't go to the 2nd gear. I need to confirm what the 2nd gear is. Which combination of the (2 or 3) front chainrings and (5 to 12) rear chainrings they consider to be the 2nd gear, before trying to determine the problem.
Same goes for opinion. Look it up in a dictionary, and you can be fairly certain that is what the other discussion participants use when saying "my opinion" (honest, or not).
So while opinion has it's limits (depending on one's knowledge and experience, objectiveness, etc.), using the word "honest" can be perfectly correct. As a way to say you really believe what you're saying (for what that's worth, again, depending on one's knowledge etc...). It could also be used as a demagogy instrument, trying to convince people to take your point of view (I know a lot more such "tricks" in Serbian, so can't think of another good English example - but almost any politician's speech will do) though I don't think it's the case with Darrsi's posts here.
Anyway thank you Slaninar for adding your Opinion, I feel you may have the same effect as a stick wiggling about in a hornets nest, but you may not agree, but that is your Op...............
Here we go again.
I agree. I think the same for your posts following your first one (which is very good IMO) in this topic.
PS: I agree about the world being flat if it was round like some are saying the water would all run off, I don't know! Some people have not thought that one through. :lol
Yes. I was amazed in how many details. :rollin
Post by: Slaninar on 18 March 2018, 08:25:02 am
SRAM and Shimano components don't mix according to both the manufacturers manuals, data and recommendations. However, for one example, I've set up SRAM front derailleurs with Shimano front shifters to work perfectly fine - at least for both mine and the user's criteria. It just shifts as good as it shifts. When someone asks if it can work, I always say that it works "based on my knowledge and experience" (long way of saying IMO :) ). Just to be certain I've given a "full disclosure", since manufacturers say otherwise.
On the other hand, if someone asks if Deore brakes are better than the Acera ones (higher and lower class Shimano equipment), it is also my opinion that Deores are better. But since both the manufacturer, testers, practically any other mechanic etc. also claim the same, I don't bother stressing out that it's my opinion, or based on "my knowledge and experience".
In both those cases, all I can say when asked a question is my opinion. It is (IMO) understood that it's an honest one - liars and demagogues can be spotted by often using the words honest, honestly etc (again IMO - not a psychologist, sociologist or similiar). :)
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 18 March 2018, 10:59:12 am
all i asked was about some oil weight in forks then it turned into changing springs which is fair and on subject
then it turned into the whole philosophical argument of the meaning of opinion
and then its turns into gearing systems for the lycra brigade
- FUCK IT im putting 15w in tommorow and will let you know if its a bit too harsh
might even put the 14t sprocket on and go be a hooligan down my country roads
Post by: Slaninar on 18 March 2018, 12:27:16 pm
WTF IS HAPPENING
all i asked was about some oil weight in forks then it turned into changing springs which is fair and on subject
then it turned into the whole philosophical argument of the meaning of opinion
and then its turns into gearing systems for the lycra brigade
- FUCK IT im putting 15w in tommorow and will let you know if its a bit too harsh
might even put the 14t sprocket on and go be a hooligan down my country roads
From my "experiments":
15w oil, all else being left equal will result in the forks resisting to go down a bit more, but also coming back up a bit slower. Hard braking followed by lots of smaller bumps will be a bad experience with that setup, forks will not go back from bottoming out quickly enough.
Adding more spring preload, without replacing the springs, will fix that to a point, but then you get a lot less sag when the bike is going at constant speed, which results, gain, in that lots of smaller bumps will cause more problems (forks will practically be bottomed "downwards" - no room to move away from the bike).
For the track, it's generally better than stock, for the street - only if you are on the heavier side.
Post by: darrsi on 18 March 2018, 12:41:33 pm
WTF IS HAPPENING
all i asked was about some oil weight in forks then it turned into changing springs which is fair and on subject
then it turned into the whole philosophical argument of the meaning of opinion
and then its turns into gearing systems for the lycra brigade
- FUCK IT im putting 15w in tommorow and will let you know if its a bit too harsh
might even put the 14t sprocket on and go be a hooligan down my country roads
Sounds like a plan to me.
Make sure you use the correct levels as i've seen people on YouTube before giving incorrect measurements due to the year of the bike, and that will make an unwelcome difference.
My bike has older forks on for example without the adjusters so needs different levels to the year of the bike in the manual.
Post by: fazersharp on 18 March 2018, 12:44:04 pm
Post by: darrsi on 18 March 2018, 12:51:33 pm
I feel a bit left out and missing a fight. My honest opinion is that you must all be fat arses because I find the forks just perfect for my weight the way they came out of the factory. BUT at 20 years I can understand the springs have had some wear but would the oil of lost any of its original properties.
Think you're due a change mate. :lol
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/how-to/oil-change-intervals-your-suspension-street-savvy (https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/how-to/oil-change-intervals-your-suspension-street-savvy)
Post by: fazersharp on 18 March 2018, 12:57:01 pm
Hmm I see, for me it would defiantly be OEM because if there has been a degradation then its been slow and I have not noticed it so wouldn't want to over do the the difference by using 15w. I am Only at 20k miles though.I feel a bit left out and missing a fight. My honest opinion is that you must all be fat arses because I find the forks just perfect for my weight the way they came out of the factory. BUT at 20 years I can understand the springs have had some wear but would the oil of lost any of its original properties.
Think you're due a change mate. :lol
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/how-to/oil-change-intervals-your-suspension-street-savvy (https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/how-to/oil-change-intervals-your-suspension-street-savvy)
Post by: daviee on 18 March 2018, 01:15:33 pm
Post by: darrsi on 18 March 2018, 02:37:33 pm
not as big a difference from 10 to 15 weight oil i changed mine and tbh all it done was firm it up a bit
That was my whole point to begin with :lol
Post by: mtread on 18 March 2018, 03:17:19 pm
Isn't that that the point of heavier oil?
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 18 March 2018, 03:34:52 pm
well what an aroma, not as fishy as described more smells like black treacle same colour aswell
can see the contaminents in it a mile away so im glad im changing it out - its one of those things people tend to forget about
- do wish i had ordered fork seals aswell but i totally forgot
Post by: tommyardin on 18 March 2018, 06:00:50 pm
WTF IS HAPPENING
all i asked was about some oil weight in forks then it turned into changing springs which is fair and on subject
then it turned into the whole philosophical argument of the meaning of opinion
and then its turns into gearing systems for the lycra brigade
- FUCK IT im putting 15w in tommorow and will let you know if its a bit too harsh
might even put the 14t sprocket on and go be a hooligan down my country roads
Hey Punk put 15 weight in one side and 7.5 weight in the other see which you prefer. :lol
The crack is good in Cricklewood lol!
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 19 March 2018, 03:57:27 pm
couldnt get take a left off the roundabout though :lol :lol :lol
feels pretty good with 15w in it but i havent had a chance to really get out on the open roads yet only had it up to about 40 but its taking the pot holes alot better (i even started aiming for them to see how it took the ones i know are bone shakers)
Post by: tommyardin on 19 March 2018, 04:43:03 pm
Cool it looks like a success :thumbup
Post by: matt7chunk on 19 March 2018, 08:45:53 pm
Post by: robbo on 19 March 2018, 09:05:41 pm
Post by: tommyardin on 19 March 2018, 09:11:59 pm
Yep.Spring out and fork compressed.
:thumbup
Post by: Triggergee on 20 March 2018, 08:04:15 am
Post by: tommyardin on 20 March 2018, 08:19:44 am
(Stanchion pushed down inside the bottom sliders)
One thing to watch out for is that it is possible for the stanchions to jam right down at the bottom of the sliders if you bang them down or even allow them to drop down inside under there own weight, they can be a bugger to shift, I had to hold one leg clear of the ground and whack it several blows with a leather mallet on the caliper mounting lugs to free it.
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 20 March 2018, 10:23:01 am
Empty compressed legs, with the exception of the damper rods, they are in place.
(Stanchion pushed down inside the bottom sliders)
One thing to watch out for is that it is possible for the stanchions to jam right down at the bottom of the sliders if you bang them down or even allow them to drop down inside under there own weight, they can be a bugger to shift, I had to hold one leg clear of the ground and whack it several blows with a leather mallet on the caliper mounting lugs to free it.
yeah this is a pain in arse - i clamped it between my legs and pulled with all my oil hands might and this happened
https://youtu.be/K8gwEpb37xw?t=8s
i too resorted to a leather mallet
Post by: Triggergee on 20 March 2018, 10:31:19 am
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 20 March 2018, 11:09:35 am
and as its from M&P the delivery is shit hot (dhl) and can be sure its not sat on the shelf for years
http://r.ebay.com/ILsd9Y (http://r.ebay.com/ILsd9Y)
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 20 March 2018, 11:13:55 am
RSF 7.5' is the new term for 'SAE 10'
[/size]how that works i dont know, but could lead to some confusion
Post by: tommyardin on 20 March 2018, 02:22:35 pm
also just read this on a pyramid parts advert
RSF 7.5' is the new term for 'SAE 10'
how that works i dont know, but could lead to some confusion
I went for Silkolene as it a name I knew and it is sold as Fork Oil its is apparently not the same as SAE 15 weight.
I started off with RSF15 and adjusted it by removal of a measured amount of RSF15 and replace it with the same amount of RSF30 until I was happy with the viscosity.
working it out the best I could I ended up with RSF 17-18 with the emulators set on 2.5 full turns in from initial spring contact (That is emulator spring not main fork spring)
If you do mix RSF do a longish run before you decide to adjust it some more, it took about 40 mile for the forks to settle down I think it is to do with the two viscositys' mixing or blending together.
Post by: matt7chunk on 22 March 2018, 09:18:49 pm
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 22 March 2018, 09:32:56 pm
i have left it in a jar to let it settle and its some what unnerving - god knows how old it was
Post by: fazersharp on 22 March 2018, 09:58:21 pm
im loving the new oil - when my good camera gets back tomorrow i will show what the old oil had turned intoOhhhhhhhhhh great thats another thing I have got to do now then before I ride - Chain and sprockets soon, - including a swing arm strip and re lube (using a continuous chain ) I don't ride enough now as it is -- very tempted to by something new to cut out all the maintenance although I do get great satisfaction from doing my own maintenance it has to be said.
i have left it in a jar to let it settle and its some what unnerving - god knows how old it was
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 23 March 2018, 12:35:00 am
but what is an extra 10 mins to properly clean and lube your chain when you wash it (scotoilers dont clean)
my bikes are misused, mistreated and generally given a hard time but when it comes to maintenance they are looked after
forget buying a scotoiler and just buy a paddock stand as it far more usefull for everything
when you say you are using a continuous chain do you mean one that is riveted - i should hope so as split link chains shouldnt be used on bikes this size (the previous owner fitted one and it didnt end well for me but could have been worse if it flung the link 10 mins earlier)
Post by: Slaninar on 23 March 2018, 05:32:16 am
i have a scotoiler that came with the bike but i took it off instantly - they are easily forgot to be topped up
but what is an extra 10 mins to properly clean and lube your chain when you wash it (scotoilers dont clean)
my bikes are misused, mistreated and generally given a hard time but when it comes to maintenance they are looked after
forget buying a scotoiler and just buy a paddock stand as it far more usefull for everything
when you say you are using a continuous chain do you mean one that is riveted - i should hope so as split link chains shouldnt be used on bikes this size (the previous owner fitted one and it didnt end well for me but could have been worse if it flung the link 10 mins earlier)
With a Scottoiler my chain has been clean - and lubed. Practically never needed to clean it since the installation of the system. It does fling off, along with all the stuck dirt, and is continuously reapplied, of course.
Post by: darrsi on 23 March 2018, 06:16:54 am
i have a scotoiler that came with the bike but i took it off instantly - they are easily forgot to be topped up
but what is an extra 10 mins to properly clean and lube your chain when you wash it (scotoilers dont clean)
my bikes are misused, mistreated and generally given a hard time but when it comes to maintenance they are looked after
forget buying a scotoiler and just buy a paddock stand as it far more usefull for everything
when you say you are using a continuous chain do you mean one that is riveted - i should hope so as split link chains shouldnt be used on bikes this size (the previous owner fitted one and it didnt end well for me but could have been worse if it flung the link 10 mins earlier)
No, he means it comes as a one piece endless chain.
Post by: darrsi on 23 March 2018, 06:25:08 am
im loving the new oil - when my good camera gets back tomorrow i will show what the old oil had turned intoOhhhhhhhhhh great thats another thing I have got to do now then before I ride - Chain and sprockets soon, - including a swing arm strip and re lube (using a continuous chain ) I don't ride enough now as it is -- very tempted to by something new to cut out all the maintenance although I do get great satisfaction from doing my own maintenance it has to be said.
i have left it in a jar to let it settle and its some what unnerving - god knows how old it was
I've been saying this is a simple and inexpensive improvement for years, why are you suddenly convinced now? :lol
Post by: darrsi on 23 March 2018, 06:32:17 am
im loving the new oil - when my good camera gets back tomorrow i will show what the old oil had turned into
i have left it in a jar to let it settle and its some what unnerving - god knows how old it was
It most certainly felt a damn site better to me when i put the 15w oil in although like a lot of people including yourself i've no doubt that the old 10w oil that was previously in there was either so iffy and/or old that anything would've been an improvement, but as said, to me the handling is way better than before and gives a much more stable feel to the front end. :thumbup
Post by: mtread on 23 March 2018, 09:22:08 am
Post by: fazersharp on 23 March 2018, 10:25:36 am
Yes I meant a continuous chain, thank you.im loving the new oil - when my good camera gets back tomorrow i will show what the old oil had turned intoOhhhhhhhhhh great thats another thing I have got to do now then before I ride - Chain and sprockets soon, - including a swing arm strip and re lube (using a continuous chain ) I don't ride enough now as it is -- very tempted to by something new to cut out all the maintenance although I do get great satisfaction from doing my own maintenance it has to be said.
i have left it in a jar to let it settle and its some what unnerving - god knows how old it was
I've been saying this is a simple and inexpensive improvement for years, why are you suddenly convinced now? :lol
And its just that I don't listen to you that's all
Post by: tommyardin on 23 March 2018, 10:40:09 am
I'm with Slaninar, Scottoiler all the way. It includes a cleaning fluid and chains last 3+ times as long, that's proven. The container holds enough oil for at least 500 miles, so how can you forget to top it up? Would you forget to check tyre pressures? Better Scottoil than that sticky dirt magnet stuff that comes out of cans.
What does that mean? :lol
Post by: darrsi on 23 March 2018, 12:15:40 pm
Yes I meant a continuous chain, thank you.im loving the new oil - when my good camera gets back tomorrow i will show what the old oil had turned intoOhhhhhhhhhh great thats another thing I have got to do now then before I ride - Chain and sprockets soon, - including a swing arm strip and re lube (using a continuous chain ) I don't ride enough now as it is -- very tempted to by something new to cut out all the maintenance although I do get great satisfaction from doing my own maintenance it has to be said.
i have left it in a jar to let it settle and its some what unnerving - god knows how old it was
I've been saying this is a simple and inexpensive improvement for years, why are you suddenly convinced now? :lol
And its just that I don't listen to you that's all
Oh, okay, that's more understandable. :thumbup
Post by: mobile mouse on 23 March 2018, 11:24:09 pm
it shows the viscosity of various fork oils.
you might be supprised at the viscosity of Silcolene rsf15 compared to Yamaha G15 which is Yamaha's 15W fork oil.
I was surprised at how the new ISO standard is being misinterpreted, see below...
Oil Conversion Chart
SAE-to-ISO
SAE ISO/AW
10W 32
15W or 20W 46
20W 68
30W 100
ISO and SAE are standardized specifications that define oil weight. This ensures that one brand's 30-weight oil is the same viscosity as another's.
This oil conversion chart is approximate.
I ended up going by the viscosity value and not what it says on the label.the 15W fork oil I ended up buying was the Rock Oil SVI 15 with a viscosity of 48 close to the Yamaha 15W of 47.3
Post by: darrsi on 24 March 2018, 05:47:11 am
I found this table https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/ (https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/)
it shows the viscosity of various fork oils.
you might be supprised at the viscosity of Silcolene rsf15 compared to Yamaha G15 which is Yamaha's 15W for oil.
I was surprised at how the new ISO standard is being misinterpreted, see below...
Oil Conversion Chart
SAE-to-ISO
SAE ISO/AW
10W 32
15W or 20W 46
20W 6830W 100
ISO and SAE are standardized specifications that define oil weight. This ensures that one brand's 30-weight oil is the same viscosity as another's.
This oil conversion chart is approximate.
I ended up going by the viscosity value and not what it says on the label.the 15W fork oil I ended up buying was the Rock Oil SVI 15 with a viscosity of 48 close to the Yamaha 15W of 47.3
Surprised?
Nearly just fell over!
Saturday mornings, eh? :lol
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 24 March 2018, 11:24:59 am
(this is just one fork the other is contaminated with leftover coffee granules)
Post by: darrsi on 24 March 2018, 11:34:49 am
after leaving the oil to sit in a jar for nearly a week this happened
(this is just one fork the other is contaminated with leftover coffee granules)mostly water by the looks of that
Do you know when it was last changed?
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 24 March 2018, 11:49:35 am
Do you know when it was last changed?
not a clue ive had it for a year and the bloke that had it before me didnt seem too clued up when it came to mechanical stuff so could be anything
i should have changed the seals aswell but i forgot to order them and im planning a USD conversion anyhow so unless they start weeping oil im not to bothered for now
Post by: fazersharp on 24 March 2018, 09:04:02 pm
The thing is if I am taking them off and stripping down then while I am at it I will also be stripping the old lacquer off -buffing up - re lacquering blah blah, not to mention doing a"Harryhornby" and mullering something up, but all the time not having an issue with the handling in the first place. Do I really need to do it ? 20 year old bike - never seen rain-20k miles with a 9 1/2 stone racing snake on board.
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 24 March 2018, 09:31:46 pm
only when it comes to oil seals do you need anything a bit more specialist but you can get away with ingenuity a drift and a broomstick handle (i prefer the screw in mop handles)
a bench vice or black and decker workmate certainly makes life easier to clamp the stanchion while trying to get the top bolt back in but not essential if there is another set of hands available
something to drain the oil into (why i always have a box of empty coffee jars)
- if your mudguard has not been off in years be prepared for heartache though - the bolts often suffer from galvanic corrosion and will snap (£20 on front left) for some reason if it happens to me on a yam it is always front left, so take it easy use lots of plus gas/wd40/babyoil/ferrets urine whatever you use and wind it back and forth back and forth as you slowly remove the bolt - if it snaps then find someone who knows how to center drill and remove or helicoil (a good engineer will always try drill and remove first)
a quick read of the manual should give you a good idea on where alternative tools can be used just dont trust it when it says to go to chapter one as it within 4 lines tells you to go back to chapter .......6?
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 25 March 2018, 12:42:06 am
I'm with Slaninar, Scottoiler all the way. It includes a cleaning fluid and chains last 3+ times as long, that's proven. The container holds enough oil for at least 500 miles, so how can you forget to top it up? Would you forget to check tyre pressures? Better Scottoil than that sticky dirt magnet stuff that comes out of cans.
500 miles - holy crap i would have to refill it every week at least
i agree with matt entirely on this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xgcx6F6fw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xgcx6F6fw)
if you ride in all weathers they are not the best of ideas (although usefull to a degree) and as for 3x longer - in comparison to what ???
a properly looked after chain removing the road crap will last just as long as any scottoiler looked after chain, especially with o/x ring chains as we are no longer lubricating the inner rollers we are only lubricating the plates that hold the rollers together
Post by: darrsi on 25 March 2018, 02:57:30 am
Oiled or not, if you ride during winter the chain will pick up shite from the road, it's unavoidable.
Just a case of common sense.
I actually use WD40 as a cleaner with a brush, then Wurth chain lube afterwards.
Done me alright for 30 years riding, so i'll stick with a proven method.
Post by: tommyardin on 25 March 2018, 08:27:17 am
after leaving the oil to sit in a jar for nearly a week this happened
(this is just one fork the other is contaminated with leftover coffee granules)mostly water by the looks of that
Do you know when it was last changed?
Mine was dark, dark silvery grey and stank of fish, then there was the oil that came out of my forks :lol :lol :lol :rollin :rollin :rollin
Post by: fazersharp on 25 March 2018, 10:50:51 am
galvanic corrosionYou see that's all I need to read to put me off.
I do have all the kit apart from the specialist tools.
Judging by the sludge in there I wonder how much good a simple replace oil would do.
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 25 March 2018, 12:21:11 pm
its definatly worth doing, the change in feel is more than noticable (but with that much water in its no suprise)
over time the oil breaks down and should be replaced anyhow, its just no1 does
Post by: darrsi on 25 March 2018, 12:27:37 pm
galvanic corrosionYou see that's all I need to read to put me off.
I do have all the kit apart from the specialist tools.
Judging by the sludge in there I wonder how much good a simple replace oil would do.
Why are you even contemplating the idea of changing 20 year old oil?
Just do it......and use 15w.
Then come back and tell everyone how you should've done it 20 years ago. :lol
Post by: tommyardin on 25 March 2018, 02:43:40 pm
galvanic corrosionYou see that's all I need to read to put me off.
I do have all the kit apart from the specialist tools.
Judging by the sludge in there I wonder how much good a simple replace oil would do.
Ooyy! Sharpie, I hope you don't think like that about your engine oil.
Post by: fazersharp on 25 March 2018, 07:36:44 pm
What I was meaning was if it is gunky sludge without actually dismantling and giving a proper clean I am putting clean oil into dirty tubes.galvanic corrosionYou see that's all I need to read to put me off.
I do have all the kit apart from the specialist tools.
Judging by the sludge in there I wonder how much good a simple replace oil would do.
Ooyy! Sharpie, I hope you don't think like that about your engine oil.
Post by: Disorderlypunk on 25 March 2018, 09:46:00 pm
99% new oil is better than 0% new oil
but yes a full dismantle would always be the best option when possible or absolutely required
Post by: Slaninar on 26 March 2018, 07:31:24 am
I'm with Slaninar, Scottoiler all the way. It includes a cleaning fluid and chains last 3+ times as long, that's proven. The container holds enough oil for at least 500 miles, so how can you forget to top it up? Would you forget to check tyre pressures? Better Scottoil than that sticky dirt magnet stuff that comes out of cans.
500 miles - holy crap i would have to refill it every week at least
i agree with matt entirely on this
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xgcx6F6fw[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xgcx6F6fw[/url])
if you ride in all weathers they are not the best of ideas (although usefull to a degree) and as for 3x longer - in comparison to what ???
a properly looked after chain removing the road crap will last just as long as any scottoiler looked after chain, especially with o/x ring chains as we are no longer lubricating the inner rollers we are only lubricating the plates that hold the rollers together
My experience differs. The chain is very clean, without the need to clean it. And it is always lubed. Combination of dirt that gets stuck to a lubricant makes for a nice grinding paste - one of the reasons the chain lasts a lot shorter, than a lot thinner cam shaft chain, that is always closed inside the engine, always clean and lubed. Scottoiler keeps the chain lubed, while the ("thin") oil flings off it along with any dirt - so the chain stays both clean and lubed.
Using other methods, it's very hard to clean the chain between the pins and the rollers, where it matters.
Post by: reaper1064 on 13 April 2018, 05:10:21 pm
Post by: Triggergee on 13 April 2018, 05:32:03 pm
Post by: mtread on 13 April 2018, 05:56:40 pm
Quote
500 miles - holy crap i would have to refill it every week at leastOh well that's 20 seconds of your life you'll never get back then ;)