Chain advice

[markbarker2000]

Hi all. Some advice please. I’ve recently picked up a 1998 fSZ600 with 24K. What would be your thoughts on this chain? I know the manual says 150 mm max. Also there are two points like the one in the below picture where there is clearly a chain link I was expecting there to be only one. There at two points like the one at the rear sprocket both on the same side of the chain. Is this ok and and I correct to presume that they are the connecting points.

[markbarker2000]

This is the additional pic

[markbarker2000]

Rear sprocket.
Just thought I’d add too the sprockets both look good with little wear in them.

[Creaky]

When I had to change my chain around this mileage my dealer pulled my old chain away from the rear sprocket to check for wear. He was able to lift it quite a distance and determined it was too worn.

When fitting the new one he used just one jointing link.

[darrsi]

Can't say i've heard of people using two links before. I can't see it being an issue as long as they have been competently fittedwhich is the very important part.
My only guess is that they've replaced a sticky link rather than the whole chain, which possibly either indicates an old chain or a link that has been missed a few times when lubing that's gone bad.


As mentioned, if the chain is properly tensioned then you can try pulling it at the rear of the sprocket and see if it lifts away at all which will give a hint towards wear and tear.   


Look for any hooking on the sprockets too, it may look subtle on first sight but you will know if they are worn or not, or take photos and show us.


Are you feeling any knocking in the left footpeg, or hearing any strange noises from the chain, these are other signs of the chain/sprockets being on their way out.


You can also carefully view each lower link of the chain with the bike on the centre stand and every single link should look horizontal, if you see even one link that is slightly offset at an angle then that's another sign that the chain links are getting a bit sticky and tired.

[Gnasher]

I'm not quite sure what your picture is showing us, if it's to show there's two separate joining links, I can't really see them not even one if I'm honest.

Endless chains such as what Yamaha supply or fitted as standard have a pended end rivet, the shape of which are a square with 4 bevelled edges, the pictures shows only this type of links.  The joining links supplied with non endless chains, which make up the vast majority of replacement chains are expanding pin type, this type is seen in your picture of the sprocket and is located at 3 O'clock position.  Yes you can get factory type rivet joining links, in the replacement non endless chain kits, but these require a special anvil tool which is very, very expensive, time consuming and very tricky to use in the vertical position while the chain is on the bike.  These are used in my experience, when making up endless chains before there are fitted, to custom or drag/race machines with non standard swingarm lengths, not when doing routine servicing for road bikes, in which case the expanding pin type link is used. 

I've fitted many chains both endless and the more common non-endless chains over the years.  I've never fitted a pended factory link to non-endless chain while the chain is on the bike and I don't know of a stealer doing it either, it just too difficult, too expensive and time consuming 99.9% will be expanding pin links which are perfectly acceptable. 

Using your pictures as a ref, the chain is out of spec and needs to be replaced as it's over the 150mm length over 11 pins.  Another fairly reliable method and is alluded to in another post, is pulling the chain off the rear sprocket and being able to slide a pencil in the gap.  Another way is trying to push a link together if you can feel movement (slight knocking) the chain is buggered.

The chain fitted to this bike isn't OE it's a non endless expanding pin link replacement.  Like many it's service life is short buggered the bike only having covered 24k.  That's a minimum of two chains in less than the expected life of one chain, why?  Lack off proper maintenance, use of spray on lubs and/or bad fitting of the new chain, not changing both sprockets and more of the above.

Mate you need a new chain and sprockets change them both at the same time.     

     

[darrsi]

I'm not quite sure what your picture is showing us, if it's to show there's two separate joining links, I can't really see them not even one if I'm honest.

Endless chains such as what Yamaha supply or fitted as standard have a pended end rivet, the shape of which are a square with 4 bevelled edges, the pictures shows only this type of links.  The joining links supplied with non endless chains, which make up the vast majority of replacement chains are expanding pin type, this type is seen in your picture of the sprocket and is located at 3 O'clock position.  Yes you can get factory type rivet joining links, in the replacement non endless chain kits, but these require a special anvil tool which is very, very expensive, time consuming and very tricky to use in the vertical position while the chain is on the bike.  These are used in my experience, when making up endless chains before there are fitted, to custom or drag/race machines with non standard swingarm lengths, not when doing routine servicing for road bikes, in which case the expanding pin type link is used. 

I've fitted many chains both endless and the more common non-endless chains over the years.  I've never fitted a pended factory link to non-endless chain while the chain is on the bike and I don't know of a stealer doing it either, it just too difficult, too expensive and time consuming 99.9% will be expanding pin links which are perfectly acceptable. 

Using your pictures as a ref, the chain is out of spec and needs to be replaced as it's over the 150mm length over 11 pins.  Another fairly reliable method and is alluded to in another post, is pulling the chain off the rear sprocket and being able to slide a pencil in the gap.  Another way is trying to push a link together if you can feel movement (slight knocking) the chain is buggered.

The chain fitted to this bike isn't OE it's a non endless expanding pin link replacement.  Like many it's service life is short buggered the bike only having covered 24k.  That's a minimum of two chains in less than the expected life of one chain, why?  Lack off proper maintenance, use of spray on lubs and/or bad fitting of the new chain, not changing both sprockets and more of the above.

Mate you need a new chain and sprockets change them both at the same time.     

   

There's a link next to the bolt on the right of the swingarm in the picture. The other one is out of shot. Doesn't look like it's been splayed enough to me, but i agree everything is pointing to changing sprockets and chain, for peace of mind if anything.

[Gnasher]

There's a link next to the bolt on the right of the swingarm in the picture. The other one is out of shot. Doesn't look like it's been splayed enough to me, but i agree everything is pointing to changing sprockets and chain, for peace of mind if anything.

You mean the one I stated

this type is seen in your picture of the sprocket and is located at 3 O'clock position.

It's fine, the big mistake stealers and DIY owners make is too over splay/rivet them, which leads to a tight link.  The fit between the side plate and the pins is tolerance, it requires very little to lock them.   Tight joining links are the cause of many replacement chains failing, I've replaced, replacement chains in less than 3k.  Trouble is you the owner trying to prove you've oiled/lub it etc etc.

My advice, always check the joining link by hand before you ride off, it's it not the same as the other links i.e. to lose/tight it's fitted incorrectly.   

[darrsi]

There's a link next to the bolt on the right of the swingarm in the picture. The other one is out of shot. Doesn't look like it's been splayed enough to me, but i agree everything is pointing to changing sprockets and chain, for peace of mind if anything.

You mean the one I stated

this type is seen in your picture of the sprocket and is located at 3 O'clock position.

It's fine, the big mistake stealers and DIY owners make is too over splay/rivet them, which leads to a tight link.  The fit between the side plate and the pins is tolerance, it requires very little to lock them.   Tight joining links are the cause of many replacement chains failing, I've replaced, replacement chains in less than 3k.  Trouble is you the owner trying to prove you've oiled/lub it etc etc.

My advice, always check the joining link by hand before you ride off, it's it not the same as the other links i.e. to lose/tight it's fitted incorrectly.

Apologies, i read the "..I can't really see them not even one if I'm honest.." part.

[fazersharp]

The chain fitted to this bike isn't OE it's a non endless expanding pin link replacement.  Like many it's service life is short buggered the bike only having covered 24k.  That's a minimum of two chains in less than the expected life of one chain, why?  Lack off proper maintenance, use of spray on lubs and/or bad fitting of the new chain, not changing both sprockets and more of the above.

Yep doesn't seem right to me. I have just changed my 98 at 24k last year. The sprockets and chain were both OEM and the only thing that lead me to change was having a few tight spots on the chain and I changed chain and sprockets both. Spray wax lube was always used but the new chain is oil and a rag/brush.   

[markbarker2000]

The other link is here. Sorry I didn’t include it in the first set of pictures. You are correct to see that the other link is at the tensioning bolt on the back sprocket.


The pic I’ve put of the measurements show that the ten link section is 154 mm and not 150 as stated in Haynes.


I was just looking for consensus regarding the state of this chain. I’ve tensioned it properly and it doesn’t lift off the rear sprocket at all.


I’ve just taken two pics of the sprockets too to see what people think.

[markbarker2000]

Rear 1

[markbarker2000]

Rear 2

[markbarker2000]

Front

[BBROWN1664]

It may be the shadows but teh sprockets both look like they are starting to "hook" so would need to be changed. Also the picture of the chain on the rear sprocket makes it look like you can see the bottom of the teeth under the chain also meaning its worn.

[Trebus]

Front looks more worn but not unusual, it will obviously rotate approx 3 times compared with rear. In the past I’ve changed just the front On other bikes when on a budget but ideally change both and chain at the same time.

[Gnasher]

Both sprockets and the chain need replacing. 

150mm is the maximum serviceable stretch tolerance, yours is 153, the front sprocket is hooked, the rear is worn.  Many owners make the big mistake of not changing sprockets when the chain is replaced, it's bad practice and false economy, worn sprockets will half the chain's service life.

I've seen all manner of cons, rip off's and blatant fraud by stealers and owners over the years.  Everything from fitting parts from written off bikes with new or newer chains/sprockets and passing it off as new, to not changing front sprockets as many owners never take the front cover off.  Dual links although not common, isn't new, there're all manner of reasons this could have been done.  The most common a stealer or owner uses old chains and builds one out of 2, chains when replaced only have a few tight links, they remove them and rejoin, so as there's no tight links, this doesn't remove the worn ones!  Why cost, stealer pockets the whole cost of the new chain while supplying one at not cost, owners fit them just before selling saving a wedge and not spending on a bike they're about to sell.

Just replace both the sprockets and the chain. 

I would recommend you go over the whole bike and look for more of this kinda of thing, brake pads, air filters, are the tyres a matched pair, what make are they etc, etc.  The rims looked to have been polished, the bike from the areas in your pictures isn't in the condition I would expect from 98 very low mileage bike, mine is 98 it's covered 57k and is much cleaner in those areas than yours.  I'm suspecting the mileage, hard to be certain without more pictures, of discs, bolts, screws, at 24k the latter should show few signs of wear/use 24k is only 3 services!   


         

[markbarker2000]

Thanks for the tips Gnasher. I’ll look at a new chain and sprockets set. Could you give recommendations please as to what to buy also what lubrication to use on it to keep it in good shape.

[Gnasher]

Thanks for the tips Gnasher. I’ll look at a new chain and sprockets set. Could you give recommendations please as to what to buy also what lubrication to use on it to keep it in good shape.

DID chain is my recommdation, here's a good place as any to start looking https://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/motorcycle_parts/content_cat/894  530VX either Oring or Xring latter is better you can have gold or plain, shop about you my get it cheaper.  Whether others have in in stock that's another matter and JT sprockets http://www.jtsprockets.com/ go for silent, you can get these from sportsbikeshop, some places do both as a kit.  Make sure you buy the chain from a good well established seller/dealer, they're fakes out there.  Anything less than £75 ish for a chain and it's likely not to be genuine, you can go for endless OE which will be cheaper, but you need to remove the swingarm. 

Take a look at this thread for chain care info http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=26099.0

[fazersharp]

Not sure what I am looking at but the front sprocket looks like the centre is domed in the picture. If that is the case then it also looks like it has the old 9mm nut, so when changing the sprocket it will need the 12.5 nut. http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=24665.msg288535#msg288535

[darrsi]

Not sure what I am looking at but the front sprocket looks like the centre is domed in the picture. If that is the case then it also looks like it has the old 9mm nut, so when changing the sprocket it will need the 12.5 nut. http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=24665.msg288535#msg288535

Think that could already be the 12.5mm nut as it is flush with the end of the shaft thread. If it was any bigger it would over hang.


The older 9mm which should be replaced leaves a bit of thread showing (9mm pictured below)

[fazersharp]

Not sure what I am looking at but the front sprocket looks like the centre is domed in the picture. If that is the case then it also looks like it has the old 9mm nut, so when changing the sprocket it will need the 12.5 nut. http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?topic=24665.msg288535#msg288535

Think that could already be the 12.5mm nut as it is flush with the end of the shaft thread. If it was any bigger it would over hang.


The older 9mm which should be replaced leaves a bit of thread showing (9mm pictured below)

Yes that is why I mentioned the domed aspect of the front sprocket, so if it is domed then a 12.5mm nut would not be flush but a 9mm one would, as in his picture. But cant work it out, it maybe one of thoses optical illusions where a concave object looks convexed 

[Gnasher]

Non Yamaha lock nut.