Date: 29-03-24  Time: 12:18 pm

Author Topic: Engine Noise  (Read 3579 times)

FazedBr

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Engine Noise
« on: 14 June 2020, 02:32:41 pm »

Hi, I recently got an FZS600, returning to bikes after a decade or so off them.

I have noticed a ticking noise, I know there is a certain amount of noise as part of the character but it's been too long to remember exactly what that sounds like, bike only showing 17k miles so has been sat around a while in its life (1999 model).

Appreciate thoughts on this, videos below, sounds worse on videos but guess that helps identify things. Thanks

Engine cold
https://youtu.be/YuHcuMfyFCY

Engine Hot after 45 mins riding
https://youtu.be/sJN18c5Qcl0

Hopefully I've posted this in the right place.
« Last Edit: 14 June 2020, 11:11:37 pm by FazedBr »

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #1 on: 14 June 2020, 03:57:07 pm »
Try the long screwdriver or rod trick. One end to your ear and place the other end at various points on the engine. You will soon find out where it's coming from.

FazedBr

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #2 on: 14 June 2020, 04:23:53 pm »
Thanks, I'll try that. Does it sound like any likely points to start trying or just go around in general? Was reading cam tensioner is a common problem on these.

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #3 on: 14 June 2020, 05:28:37 pm »
Camchain tensioner is not a common problem. They do stick a little sometimes. Do not consider fitting a manual one. This is a real bodge job that tends to hid other issues.

How many miles has it done since it started "ticking"? If not many, or you dont know, just keep riding, the tensioner should click out to the next step soon.More readily if you give it a good italian tune up occasionally.
Has it had regular oil changes? If not, give it a flush and change the oil as gunky oil can make the tensioner stick
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FazedBr

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #4 on: 14 June 2020, 05:56:45 pm »
I've only had it 300 miles, can't be sure i just missed it when I bought it is the problem there. I've read a few things here about resetting the cam tensioner, sometimes they get stuck but they can also be noisy when near the next notch, etc. Not sure if that's the sound it makes or if something else underlying?

I tried the screwdriver to ear and does sound much louder in the cam chain location but also assume this would be normal given it is in the middle of the action. The more I focus on it the more it's coming from the top of the block rather than things around it, so valves, cam chain, etc.

As the bike is new to me, I'm planning on changing out the filters, oil, check valve clearances, etc. While there was going to reset the tensioner, given the location easier while tank is off and can move the carbs out of the way. Honestly was considering a manual tensioner, I see some people swear by them.

Is flushing common, I've always been put off by horror stories of causing more damage than good by it. But then it's done 5.5k miles since 2006 (600 since 2017) and thinking there could be some build up with all the start/stop.

darrsi

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #5 on: 15 June 2020, 08:19:58 am »
I've only had it 300 miles, can't be sure i just missed it when I bought it is the problem there. I've read a few things here about resetting the cam tensioner, sometimes they get stuck but they can also be noisy when near the next notch, etc. Not sure if that's the sound it makes or if something else underlying?

I tried the screwdriver to ear and does sound much louder in the cam chain location but also assume this would be normal given it is in the middle of the action. The more I focus on it the more it's coming from the top of the block rather than things around it, so valves, cam chain, etc.

As the bike is new to me, I'm planning on changing out the filters, oil, check valve clearances, etc. While there was going to reset the tensioner, given the location easier while tank is off and can move the carbs out of the way. Honestly was considering a manual tensioner, I see some people swear by them.

Is flushing common, I've always been put off by horror stories of causing more damage than good by it. But then it's done 5.5k miles since 2006 (600 since 2017) and thinking there could be some build up with all the start/stop.


Flushing oil is not something i would do, just change the oil within spec and everything should be good. Recommendation is every 6000 miles, but i always do mine between 4 or 5000. Try not to get mugged off with mega expensive oil either, because it all has to be of a certain grade anyway.


Depending on your riding style, or journeys, will determine how quick the tensioner forwards another click. So it could be months if you take things easy.


After you have put new oil in, with the bike on the centre stand, start the engine for 30 seconds then switch off and let it settle, this will then be your correct level.
You really want the oil to be towards the upper level of the window markings.


Been using this brand of oil for years now, it's absolutely fine and a decent reasonable price.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10W-40-Motorcycle-Oil-4-Stroke-JASO-MA2-10W40-5L-Westway-Lubricants/111704165494?hash=item1a02164c76:g:0gUAAOSwY-Ndpcxy




I actually use the fully synthetic version, but that's a personal choice thing. Either will work fine though, just don't mix them.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10W-40-Synthetic-Motorcycle-Oil-4-Stroke-JASO-MA2-10W40-5L-Westway-Lubricants/111838861309?hash=item1a0a1d97fd:g:fpoAAOSw-v5dvFtp


 
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darrsi

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #6 on: 15 June 2020, 08:21:57 am »
I would hazard a guess that it would benefit from a carb balance to make it sound a little less clattery as well, but all in good time.
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FazedBr

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #7 on: 15 June 2020, 08:28:52 am »

Noted, it is running a bit rough, wonder how much noise would settle with that done. Was thinking of getting a carbtune, are they worth the extra to some of the cheaper ones around? I don't like to buy too cheap though, like my tools to last  :D .

darrsi

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #8 on: 15 June 2020, 08:39:56 am »

Noted, it is running a bit rough, wonder how much noise would settle with that done. Was thinking of getting a carbtune, are they worth the extra to some of the cheaper ones around? I don't like to buy too cheap though, like my tools to last  :D .



I have the Carb Tune, does the job perfectly, once you get familiar with where the adjustment screws are on the carbs. You will need an extra long screwdriver to get to one of them though.


http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php/topic,91.0.html
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FazedBr

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #9 on: 15 June 2020, 08:48:09 am »
Thanks for the feedback and that link, that's very useful to have! Plus I know I'll need a long enough screwdriver before it's in bits  :rollin


Just trying to keep budget realistic. Figure it's one of those 'investment' type tools and will pay itself back. £90 on ebay for the 4 column new.

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #10 on: 15 June 2020, 08:54:05 am »
Matter of interest, why do you chose the fully synthetic when semi is spec'd? Quite happy to pay the extra if it treats the engine better.


Regards riding style, I try not to be too much of a demon but sometimes it just wants to go.....it's not my main form of transport, when it comes out will be for an hour minimum so will be up to temperature and will involve a little spirited riding in dry conditions unless I get caught out.

darrsi

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #11 on: 15 June 2020, 09:09:48 am »
Matter of interest, why do you chose the fully synthetic when semi is spec'd? Quite happy to pay the extra if it treats the engine better.


Regards riding style, I try not to be too much of a demon but sometimes it just wants to go.....it's not my main form of transport, when it comes out will be for an hour minimum so will be up to temperature and will involve a little spirited riding in dry conditions unless I get caught out.


After doing a bit of research fully synthetic is supposed to offer better protection and performance over semi synthetic, and i'd seen on here that other people use it as well, so i just thought i'd give it a go.
It does the job okay so i just stuck with it.
Because i change my oil earlier than recommended it probably makes little difference, but like i said the brand that i use is a decent price and years ago it was me that decided to be the guinea pig to try it out and i've never looked back.


I personally change the oil filter every time i do an oil change as well. Some will do it every 2 changes, but for the price it just seems worth doing to me. My bike is my only transport so i look after it as much as i can.
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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #12 on: 15 June 2020, 09:14:52 am »
Fazers love to rev if you don't rev them on a regular bases the tensioner doesn't get the prod it requires to move up a tooth.  Just take it out find a dual carriageway or motorway, once warmed up let the engine rev to almost red line in the lower gears 2-3.  It will sort out the tensioner issue, it may take a few goes but if the noise is the tensioner is will stop.  Fazer don't have issues with their tensioner's, the auto is fine sometimes a reset or most often then not the above will sort it. 

From what your saying regarding the rough it could just need a nice balancing and a good run.  As for oil quality semi is perfectly adequate, fully semi is IMHO a waste of money, it's your choice. 

Fazers are one of the most reliable bike ever made, most issues are down to owners and stearlers not servicing them correctly at the right time, or owners mucking about with them.           
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darrsi

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #13 on: 15 June 2020, 09:18:41 am »
Fazers love to rev if you don't rev them on a regular bases the tensioner doesn't get the prod it requires to move up a tooth.  Just take it out find a dual carriageway or motorway, once warmed up let the engine rev to almost red line in the lower gears 2-3.  It will sort out the tensioner issue, it may take a few goes but if the noise is the tensioner is will stop.  Fazer don't have issues with their tensioner's, the auto is fine sometimes a reset or most often then not the above will sort it. 

From what your saying regarding the rough it could just need a nice balancing and a good run.  As for oil quality semi is perfectly adequate, fully semi is IMHO a waste of money, it's your choice. 

Fazers are one of the most reliable bike ever made, most issues are down to owners and stearlers not servicing them correctly at the right time, or owners mucking about with them.         


Don't think an extra £2 over 6000 miles will really break the bank  :lol
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FazedBr

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #14 on: 15 June 2020, 10:00:35 am »

Can afford more frequent changes and the filters at the difference in cost between that and silkolene or similar which I was looking at. The fact it's your main transport is good test for it.

I'll be changing spark plugs, filters and oil very soon as its a new bike to me so peace of mind, apparently was last serviced last year so an annual would be worthwhile imo. While I'm in there I will spray some carb cleaner through while running and reset the tensioner. See what it sounds like, then give it some 2-3 gear fun to clear once warmed up. May check valve clearances if feeling brave (not done that before but doesn't look too bad).

Silencer needs replacing due to small leak I've discovered so that will be done shortly, good time then to balance the carbs I'm thinking.
« Last Edit: 15 June 2020, 10:06:45 am by FazedBr »

darrsi

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #15 on: 15 June 2020, 10:18:37 am »

Can afford more frequent changes and the filters at the difference in cost between that and silkolene or similar which I was looking at. The fact it's your main transport is good test for it.

I'll be changing spark plugs, filters and oil very soon as its a new bike to me so peace of mind, apparently was last serviced last year so an annual would be worthwhile imo. While I'm in there I will spray some carb cleaner through while running and reset the tensioner. See what it sounds like, then give it some 2-3 gear fun to clear once warmed up. May check valve clearances if feeling brave (not done that before but doesn't look too bad).

Silencer needs replacing due to small leak I've discovered so that will be done shortly, good time then to balance the carbs I'm thinking.


Again, it's perfectly up to you, but me, and a few others, would recommend Iridium plugs over standard.
They will definitely last longer, perform better and are only a few quid each more.


I'm also a big fan of the K&N air filter as well. They're a bit more expensive, but it'll be the last one you buy for the bike so it does make economic sense.
« Last Edit: 15 June 2020, 11:08:18 am by darrsi »
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FazedBr

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #16 on: 21 June 2020, 04:12:39 pm »
Oil and filter, fuel filter and spark plugs all changed went with iridium and the Westway oil which seems good quality. Was told when purchased that the guy serviced the bike last year, the state of the oil (bearing in mind the few miles it's done in last 4 years) and rusty spark plugs with grit on the threads  :eek  made me think otherwise.  Air filter looked pretty new so left that in. New silencer ordered but doesn't fit straight on due to the aftermarket stainless downpipes, needs a straight coupler then will balance carbs.


It's had 100 miles of Cotswold A and B roads today to help that oil get round and see if could shift a notch on the cam tensioner, feels a lot better for the oil.


The noise hasn't disappeared but I believe is a lot clearer with the new oil. It doesn't seem to change with the revs or clutch in like most noise complaints appear to. When riding it's barely noticeable, likely due to other noises covering it. It's idle or low speed with clutch pulled to quieten the engine when it comes out. More of a rattle than a tapping now. Doesn't seem to be consistent with the engine timing, like something is loose but can't find anything external but will inspect further.


Assume the cam chain noise would disappear with revs so I'm tempted to rule that out. Any ideas?

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #17 on: 22 June 2020, 08:26:35 am »
Oil and filter, fuel filter and spark plugs all changed went with iridium and the Westway oil which seems good quality.

I've never heard of them, quick look at their website and they would appear to be just disturbers and rebranders, not refiners i.e. they approach a refiner and repackage one of their range of products, a bit like supermarkets own brand.  Supermakets don't make beans, soup, cornflakes even oil etc, what the do is repackage basic product and sell it cheaper.  Oil is all made to a minimum standard e.g. API, JASO etc.  What well know refiners Shell, Mobile, Fucus etc do is exceed those standards and add better additives.  As long as the oil is made to a API etc it will do what it's supposed to, just.       

Quote
Was told when purchased that the guy serviced the bike last year, the state of the oil (bearing in mind the few miles it's done in last 4 years) and rusty spark plugs with grit on the threads  :eek  made me think otherwise.

Rusty plugs and grit in the plug wells is normal, obviously if there very rusty and the electrode is badly worn they've been in a good while.  The electrode condition is far better guide as to the age of a plug than the outside.     

Quote
The noise hasn't disappeared but I believe is a lot clearer with the new oil. It doesn't seem to change with the revs or clutch in like most noise complaints appear to. When riding it's barely noticeable, likely due to other noises covering it. It's idle or low speed with clutch pulled to quieten the engine when it comes out. More of a rattle than a tapping now. Doesn't seem to be consistent with the engine timing, like something is loose but can't find anything external but will inspect further.

Carb inbalance and/or incorrect idle jet setting/s will give you very similar noises.   

Quote
Assume the cam chain noise would disappear with revs so I'm tempted to rule that out.


If the cam chain is the issue the noise will increase as the revs rise. 


Quote
Any ideas?


Wait until you've balanced the carbs and don't forget to reset the air mixture screws.   
Later

darrsi

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #18 on: 22 June 2020, 09:11:49 am »
Oil and filter, fuel filter and spark plugs all changed went with iridium and the Westway oil which seems good quality.

I've never heard of them, quick look at their website and they would appear to be just disturbers and rebranders, not refiners i.e. they approach a refiner and repackage one of their range of products, a bit like supermarkets own brand.  Supermakets don't make beans, soup, cornflakes even oil etc, what the do is repackage basic product and sell it cheaper.  Oil is all made to a minimum standard e.g. API, JASO etc.  What well know refiners Shell, Mobile, Fucus etc do is exceed those standards and add better additives.  As long as the oil is made to a API etc it will do what it's supposed to, just.       

Quote
Was told when purchased that the guy serviced the bike last year, the state of the oil (bearing in mind the few miles it's done in last 4 years) and rusty spark plugs with grit on the threads  :eek  made me think otherwise.

Rusty plugs and grit in the plug wells is normal, obviously if there very rusty and the electrode is badly worn they've been in a good while.  The electrode condition is far better guide as to the age of a plug than the outside.     

Quote
The noise hasn't disappeared but I believe is a lot clearer with the new oil. It doesn't seem to change with the revs or clutch in like most noise complaints appear to. When riding it's barely noticeable, likely due to other noises covering it. It's idle or low speed with clutch pulled to quieten the engine when it comes out. More of a rattle than a tapping now. Doesn't seem to be consistent with the engine timing, like something is loose but can't find anything external but will inspect further.

Carb inbalance and/or incorrect idle jet setting/s will give you very similar noises.   

Quote
Assume the cam chain noise would disappear with revs so I'm tempted to rule that out.


If the cam chain is the issue the noise will increase as the revs rise. 


Quote
Any ideas?


Wait until you've balanced the carbs and don't forget to reset the air mixture screws.   


"...As long as the oil is made to a API etc it will do what it's supposed to, just..."

Gnasher, what is with all this "just"?
It's up to spec oil, that i've been using for years in my 20 year old bike with zero issues.
Paying 50%+ more money for oil will do NOTHING to improve the running of it, because as you, and me, have already mentioned, it's up to spec.
And me spending that massive £2 extra for fully synthetic oil is because fully is known to have better longevity, so technically better performance over time. The fact i change my oil (my choice) earlier than normal kind of makes this irrelevant but i'm very happy to do that.

So rather than picking holes in what i've found to be a perfectly good engine lubricant at a very good price for everyone, why not just accept it as being okay to use, even more so as it has been tried and tested for years by me? Believe me if i thought for one second there was anything wrong about it i would be the first to tell people to completely avoid it, but in this case it's the complete opposite.  :)
« Last Edit: 22 June 2020, 09:15:30 am by darrsi »
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FazedBr

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #19 on: 22 June 2020, 09:22:52 am »

Thanks for the feedback.

Early signs is the oil has had a positive difference as I'm sure most will, time will tell but happy with it for now. Darrsi has used it for some time so that's good credit. Overall the bike is running a lot better for the bits changed out.

Was annoyed the exhaust didn't just bolt on and couldn't get the carb balance done on Saturday. They are so close, 43mm and 44.5mm which don't quite slip together. I'm hoping a 44.5mm straight coupler will do it with compression but may need to pad the smaller end with something heat proof.

I'm writing off the cam chain for now,  I'm hoping the carb sync solves it! Picked up a Carbtune and useful guide mentioned above so ready to go.


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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #20 on: 22 June 2020, 09:24:12 am »

Thanks for the feedback.

Early signs is the oil has had a positive difference as I'm sure most will, time will tell but happy with it for now. Darrsi has used it for some time so that's good credit. Overall the bike is running a lot better for the bits changed out.

Was annoyed the exhaust didn't just bolt on and couldn't get the carb balance done on Saturday. They are so close, 43mm and 44.5mm which don't quite slip together. I'm hoping a 44.5mm straight coupler will do it with compression but may need to pad the smaller end with something heat proof.

I'm writing off the cam chain for now,  I'm hoping the carb sync solves it! Picked up a Carbtune and useful guide mentioned above so ready to go.
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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #21 on: 22 June 2020, 09:27:49 am »
Thanks, came out a little small that  :rollin . Forum newbie, what can I say.

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #22 on: 22 June 2020, 10:17:50 am »
Thanks, came out a little small that  :rollin . Forum newbie, what can I say.


Happens a lot, it is rather annoying.
Easy to correct on a laptop though, if you "Modify" your post, highlight all the words, then adjust the font size to 10pt it sorts it all out.
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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #23 on: 22 June 2020, 12:14:43 pm »
So rather than picking holes in what i've found to be a perfectly good engine lubricant at a very good price for everyone, why not just accept it as being okay to use, even more so as it has been tried and tested for years by me? Believe me if i thought for one second there was anything wrong about it i would be the first to tell people to completely avoid it, but in this case it's the complete opposite.  :)

I'm not picking holes in anything fella, stating fact.  I've not said don't use it, the opposite.  As you've got the right to suggest particular oils, I and others have the right to suggest something else, you're being defensive for some reason and that's a matter for you.  The oil mentioned is in spec and it will be just, that's why it cost less and yes it will do the a perfectly acceptable job.  Higher quality oils will perform better, they don't generally discolour as fast, they drain out better and because they use better, extra and different additives they perform better, i.e. resist heat, carbonation, film and tear strength, etc etc. 

I think you said you use fully synth, if you use Westway fully synth 10w40 4T oil it's API SL rated and is the lowest (just) spec for that type of oil, I would recommend is SN, higher and later spec rating giving you better performance as outlined above.  That doesn't mean SL is bad, it's not, but SN performs better.   
 
If you want use a particular oil that's cheaper because you regard value for money, over performance, that's your choice.  It's the same with things like tyres, pads, chains etc etc, you buy to suit your budget and needs, as long as you happy, that's all that matters.  ;)   


   
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darrsi

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Re: Engine Noise
« Reply #24 on: 22 June 2020, 08:20:56 pm »
So rather than picking holes in what i've found to be a perfectly good engine lubricant at a very good price for everyone, why not just accept it as being okay to use, even more so as it has been tried and tested for years by me? Believe me if i thought for one second there was anything wrong about it i would be the first to tell people to completely avoid it, but in this case it's the complete opposite.  :)

I'm not picking holes in anything fella, stating fact.  I've not said don't use it, the opposite.  As you've got the right to suggest particular oils, I and others have the right to suggest something else, you're being defensive for some reason and that's a matter for you.  The oil mentioned is in spec and it will be just, that's why it cost less and yes it will do the a perfectly acceptable job.  Higher quality oils will perform better, they don't generally discolour as fast, they drain out better and because they use better, extra and different additives they perform better, i.e. resist heat, carbonation, film and tear strength, etc etc. 

I think you said you use fully synth, if you use Westway fully synth 10w40 4T oil it's API SL rated and is the lowest (just) spec for that type of oil, I would recommend is SN, higher and later spec rating giving you better performance as outlined above.  That doesn't mean SL is bad, it's not, but SN performs better.   
 
If you want use a particular oil that's cheaper because you regard value for money, over performance, that's your choice.  It's the same with things like tyres, pads, chains etc etc, you buy to suit your budget and needs, as long as you happy, that's all that matters.  ;)   


 


I'm just not sure how much performance you can really expect to get out of more expensive oil on a 20 year old bike?
As long as it's changed regularly and you generally look after your bike then I really cannot see a benefit, unless you are maybe racing it or constantly thrashing it which the majority of people are not.
Even though I said I'd happily try it out in my bike as the Guinea pig, i also did research, read reviews and the company selling it had 100% positive feedback, and still has 100% feedback after over 61,000 sales. That alone is a good sign.
Now, 4 or 5 years later, I still use it and it still works just fine with zero complaints from me.
Try it yourself if you don't believe me, you might even save a few quid in the process.  :lol
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