Date: 08-12-21  Time: 17:54 pm

Author Topic: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!  (Read 24746 times)

b1k3rdude

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #50 on: 08 December 2020, 03:13:01 pm »
have updated the OP.

b1k3rdude

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #51 on: 10 June 2021, 04:04:55 pm »
So just paid Yamaha £65 for a CoC for my 2007 FZ1. The date of registration in the UK was the 11th of May, 3 weeks before TFL's arbitrary date of 1st of June.
« Last Edit: 29 August 2021, 08:02:35 pm by b1k3rdude »

darrsi

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #52 on: 07 August 2021, 11:41:50 am »
Here you go, what we all need to know, Riverbank Motorcycles just replied to me:


"...A 2000 FZS 600 will test around 0.30 gm/KM as standard. The quickest solution is to fit a small suitable catalytic converter into the exhaust system before the test, which would ensure a pass result. This catalytic converter will not effect your power in any way. The suitable cat would be £125, the fitting (approx.) £60 and test £175 making a total of £360. Any brand of fuel is fine, as long as it hasn't been sitting in the tank longer than 6 weeks maximum. Ggenerally when it's busy we have a 2 week lead time, you can book via the website."
« Last Edit: 08 August 2021, 03:32:15 am by b1k3rdude »
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b1k3rdude

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #53 on: 08 August 2021, 04:00:24 am »
Its great that you can get this done, but Riverbank really is taking advantage of the situation. £60 labour to remove the end can (2 bolts and 5 mins off and on) and wedge the cat into the end of the link pipe is a joke. On top of cost of the cat and then the farcical £175 test fee?!.

If you check out the Visordown article, an RD250 & 350 (both 2 strokes) supposedly passed at 0.03 gm/KM - https://www.visordown.com/news/general/proof-ulez-farce

So before spending all the money, do as Gnasher suggested and give Yamaha a call to check the emission figure for your bike, if its under 0.15 then all it will cost you is £60 for a Certificate of conformity which you then upload along with a copy of the first page of your V5 on the TFL website -

- https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge

You dont even need to put you full/real details in, as all your doing is getting the bike onto their database to prove the bike is compliant (see attached) after which I see no reason you can't delete the account.
« Last Edit: 08 August 2021, 04:04:22 am by b1k3rdude »

darrsi

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #54 on: 08 August 2021, 06:42:05 am »
How would Yamaha know what the emissions your bike is chucking out 20+ years after it was built though?
I thought that was the point of the test, plus what i've read several times, in that each bike would be different due to age, mileage, wear and tear, and more importantly how well each bike has been looked after over a long time?
So effectively all of our bikes would give out a different result due to the above reasons, wouldn't they?


The RD350 that passed was just one bike of that model that has had more replacement parts than Triggers broom, and is in showroom condition, it didn't pave the way for all of them to pass, which would be the same for Fazers, or any model of bike for that matter. (article here www.bikerandbike.co.uk/1985-motorbike-gets-ulez-exemption-with-a-nox-test )
It was also the same owner that owned the TDR250 too that passed with a very similar ridiculously low reading for a bike of such advanced years, so he obviously knew what he was doing. I'm still not sure exactly how he got them that low, but i really do believe that he fitted his own Cat. Converters beforehand and hasn't actually mentioned that important piece of info to anyone?


I totally agree about the charges though, i actually talked about this yesterday to a few friends about how they were abusing the situation and must be making an absolute mint out of it at the same time. Why they are currently the only bike shop in London officially listed to do this work is very puzzling too?


I was even going to hold off getting it done for a while, but then thought there is the real chance they could increase their prices even more from October if they wanted to, and would not be surprised in the slightest if they do.


My bike is actually booked in now to get sorted in a couple of weeks, and i keep telling myself that £360 is nothing compared to a daily tariff, fines through the post, or being forced to change a bike that i really don't want to get rid of, even if i do have that discerning feeling that i'm being ever so slightly mugged off.


I did just have a look on my V5 logbook and although there is a section for emissions it was not filled in at all.
And i also found a copy of an old Dyno reading when i had some work done on the bike years ago but there was nothing listed on there either.


I'm now going to look into contacting Yamaha on your advice and see what details they can offer me, before i take the plunge in a couple of weeks? But i can't imagine the news would be good, otherwise we'd all know about it by now, plus don't forget, the whole reason the FZS 600 range was discontinued was because they failed the emissions test back then, so i can't see why a used bike that is between 18 to 23 years old should suddenly pass now, unless like the RD350 it has been rebuilt to mint condition and had a few tweaks here and there, and more than likely a secret Cat. Converter slipped into the end can on the quiet. 
« Last Edit: 08 August 2021, 09:14:37 am by darrsi »
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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #55 on: 08 August 2021, 12:47:17 pm »
Quote
So before spending all the money, do as Gnasher suggested and give Yamaha a call to check the emission figure for your bike, if its under 0.15 then all it will cost you is £60 for a Certificate of conformity which you then upload along with a copy of the first page of your V5 on the TFL website -
But (as I said) Yamaha will give you a figure which is over the limit. Been there, done that.
NOX figures were only entered onto V5s later, so only the manufacturer can provide an official figure.
Of course individual bikes might give a lower NOX figure, especially if the mixture has been adjusted, such as with a non OE air filter. But then you need it individually tested, and for that you are at the mercy of the only approved testing workshop..... who have you by the short and curlies  :eek
« Last Edit: 08 August 2021, 12:50:02 pm by mtread »

darrsi

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #56 on: 08 August 2021, 01:26:43 pm »
I have no reason to disbelieve him when he said that the FZS 600 averages around the 0.3 reading, because that totally fits with these bikes which were built around the years of Euro 2 compliance levels which at the time had an upper level of 0.5.
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b1k3rdude

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #57 on: 08 August 2021, 03:50:21 pm »
I totally agree about the charges though, i actually talked about this yesterday to a few friends about how they were abusing the situation and must be making an absolute mint out of it at the same time. Why they are currently the only bike shop in London officially listed to do this work is very puzzling too?

I'm now going to look into contacting Yamaha on your advice and see what details they can offer me, before i take the plunge in a couple of weeks?
Maybe because he has a family member that works for TFL.

It cant hurt.

darrsi

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« Last Edit: 09 August 2021, 05:24:36 am by darrsi »
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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #59 on: 19 August 2021, 07:50:06 am »
I did contact Yamaha by email, and they replied asking for my VIN/chassis number, etc, which i sent back to them, then they never responded again!
I just sent them another email with the same details.
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darrsi

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #60 on: 23 August 2021, 03:17:10 pm »
My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.


I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435  :'(


No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.


I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.


And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.
« Last Edit: 23 August 2021, 03:24:52 pm by darrsi »
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darrsi

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #61 on: 23 August 2021, 03:23:34 pm »
This was rather neatly done.


I'm going to try some black wrap around the link pipe to keep the thieving eyes away from it.

« Last Edit: 24 August 2021, 12:48:35 pm by darrsi »
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darrsi

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #62 on: 24 August 2021, 12:49:36 pm »
Sorted  8)
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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #63 on: 24 August 2021, 02:39:54 pm »
 :thumbup

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #64 on: 26 August 2021, 04:52:18 am »
Quote
So before spending all the money, do as Gnasher suggested and give Yamaha a call to check the emission figure for your bike, if its under 0.15 then all it will cost you is £60 for a Certificate of conformity which you then upload along with a copy of the first page of your V5 on the TFL website -
But (as I said) Yamaha will give you a figure which is over the limit. Been there, done that.
NOX figures were only entered onto V5s later, so only the manufacturer can provide an official figure.
Of course individual bikes might give a lower NOX figure, especially if the mixture has been adjusted, such as with a non OE air filter. But then you need it individually tested, and for that you are at the mercy of the only approved testing workshop..... who have you by the short and curlies  :eek


When I contacted Yamaha about my 600 they said they couldn't give any figures as the bike was manufactured before testing began which at first I thought it strange since it's the same year as my thou But I figure tests would be carried out on the first batch of a new models  which the 600 was 1998? and the thou 2001?
My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.





I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435  :'(


No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.


I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.


And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.


So clean high grade fuel and dirty filter is key?
I'm thinking of having mine tested but don't fancy a £300+ bill
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including ones who like chocolate....;)

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #65 on: 26 August 2021, 10:43:23 am »
Quote
So before spending all the money, do as Gnasher suggested and give Yamaha a call to check the emission figure for your bike, if its under 0.15 then all it will cost you is £60 for a Certificate of conformity which you then upload along with a copy of the first page of your V5 on the TFL website -
But (as I said) Yamaha will give you a figure which is over the limit. Been there, done that.
NOX figures were only entered onto V5s later, so only the manufacturer can provide an official figure.
Of course individual bikes might give a lower NOX figure, especially if the mixture has been adjusted, such as with a non OE air filter. But then you need it individually tested, and for that you are at the mercy of the only approved testing workshop..... who have you by the short and curlies  :eek


When I contacted Yamaha about my 600 they said they couldn't give any figures as the bike was manufactured before testing began which at first I thought it strange since it's the same year as my thou But I figure tests would be carried out on the first batch of a new models  which the 600 was 1998? and the thou 2001?
My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.





I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435  :'(


No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.


I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.


And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.


So clean high grade fuel and dirty filter is key?
I'm thinking of having mine tested but don't fancy a £300+ bill


Basically yeah, that's what has been suggested.
I've been using ethanol free ESSO Supreme 99 for a couple of months now as my bike seems to love it so I had no issues there.
And I was in two minds whether to clean my filter or not before the test, but I've just had 2 weeks off work and there was a sunny day last week which helps the K&N dry quicker naturally after cleaning so I took advantage of it while I had spare time on my hands.
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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #66 on: 26 August 2021, 11:56:36 am »
Here's the reply I got from Yamaha for the FZS600 back in 2019..The pass level (euro3) is 0.15.

Quote
Thank you for your enquiry.We do however regret to advise that only models constructed to comply with European Whole Vehicle Type Approval, regulations that were not fully introduced until 2003, will qualify for a CoC.

Due to the age of your machine it was not subject to European Whole Type Approval testing, in this instance we can only advise the NOx output for the Model code, therefore a machine of that model of a similar age, which was 0.185
]We apologise we are not able to be of assistance.
« Last Edit: 29 August 2021, 08:10:11 pm by b1k3rdude »

darrsi

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #67 on: 26 August 2021, 04:14:17 pm »
Yamaha didn't bother responding to my email after asking me for the chassis/VIN number.
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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #68 on: 26 August 2021, 04:21:47 pm »
Quote
Yamaha didn't bother responding to my email after asking me for the chassis/VIN number.
They must have got bored answering. Or thought 'go to foc-u'  :lol

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #69 on: 26 August 2021, 08:59:12 pm »
Quote
Yamaha didn't bother responding to my email after asking me for the chassis/VIN number.
They must have got bored answering. Or thought 'go to foc-u'  :lol


 :lol :lol :lol :lol

b1k3rdude

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #70 on: 29 August 2021, 08:17:57 pm »
  • This was rather neatly done.
  • I'm going to try some black wrap around the link pipe to keep the thieving eyes away from it.
Im not a welding expert by any stretch and someone please correct me if Im wrong but I have several issue with that cut-n-shut job -
  • Imho that link pipe looks like Stainless steel, so whats with the cheap-ass paint job covering the even worse quality welds? (they bead is all over the place and they didnt even bother to clean off the weld spatter, which is the least I would have expect for the amount of money they charged!)
  • Why did they have to cut into the link pipe at all, why didnt that just shove it into the end
Regarding covering it up, just replace the link pipe. Now that your bike is on tfl's bull$hit system there is absolutely no way tfl can prove oitherwise. Then just keep the modded link pipe for if and when you sell the bike or when the government introduce nationwide emissions testing which will put Riverbank ripoff merchants out of business.

darrsi

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #71 on: 01 September 2021, 09:08:31 pm »
I would guess that their thinking is that welding it in stops it from being removed. The ones I saw online before I had it done look like a male/female extension you just pop in between the pipe and the end can.
I still have 2 other exhaust systems at home (pipe & end cans) if I want to easily change it, but I have to admit the bike sounds quite good right now and is running extremely smooth. It now sounds more like a bigger engined bike, but in a nice way compared to how it was before.
My Quill end can is technically a race can, and I reckon the Cat. has created a tiny bit of back pressure which the bike seems absolutely fine with, so in general I'm happy with the way things are right now.
I did cover up the pipe with exhaust wrap though.


As for the welding, I was a little shocked when I saw it, because I never knew they were going to do that, but I'm not really bothered by it. I was jokingly texting a friend at the time it was being done that it sounded like the A-Team in the workshop as there was a lot of angle grinding and welding going on, without realising it was my bike they were doing it to.
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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #72 on: 02 September 2021, 02:28:04 pm »
Im not a welding expert by any stretch and someone please correct me if Im wrong but I have several issue with that cut-n-shut job -

  • Imho that link pipe looks like Stainless steel, so whats with the cheap-ass paint job covering the even worse quality welds? (they bead is all over the place and they didnt even bother to clean off the weld spatter, which is the least I would have expect for the amount of money they charged!)[/l][[/l][/l]
I was trained in welding in a past life and you're right, this is poor welding at best.  Looks like they've used a MIG welder, which is the cheapest and quickest route, MIG is one of the most common welder system out there and the easiest to learn and use.  The best method to weld stainless sheet, especially thin tubing is TIG.  But it requires more time to learn and a lot more skill as you have to control the torch with one hand and the welding material, the rod with the other.  Because it takes time to obtain the skill it's not used by many.  All that said a skilled MIG welder with the correct wire/gas flux mix should be capable of producing better quality welds than this.       

     
  • Why did they have to cut into the link pipe at all, why didnt that just shove it into the end[/l][/l]


Because the downtube collector stub slides into the end of the silencer link pipe, meaning it would need to be pushed up the pipe 50mm or so to allow the collector stub to slide in.  That would make it very difficult with MiG or TIG but possible, although it would take skill.  The CAT should have and are with quality conversations, fitted/welded into the collector stub.  This requires more skill and can present other technical issues,  like the early FZS systems they're are not stainless and special wire or rods are required to weld.  They other method is interference fit but this would mean bespoke CAT elements for each bike and that would cost.       

Basically this is as cheapest job they can get away with, on as many different bikes as possible with and max their profit.

I've seen a FZ6 downtubes they have CATs in them, cut and reconfigure to fit an FZS, to get through the Pairs equivalent to our ULEZ.           


Regarding covering it up, just replace the link pipe. Now that your bike is on tfl's bull$hit system there is absolutely no way tfl can prove oitherwise.


Personally I'm in total agreement with the law, we've got to reduce emissions.  In that case I wouldn't recommend this course of action and I'm told they do or are planning to do spot checks, e.g. you get tested on the spot, or you have to go directly to a test area.  This would make sense and is the only way to ensure people don't take the piss.  It's going to get much tougher in the coming years, whether we like it or not.   


when the government introduce nationwide emissions testing which will put Riverbank ripoff merchants out of business.


It's on it way, all new bikes for some years now have had CATs fitted as standard, they've also had full loop fuel/air/ignition/emission systems, they just not been required to be tested in the UK at MOT.  They will, at some point quite soon and its very likely it will be illegal to change them i.e. cutting out CATs shoving on open exhaust, engine remaps etc.  Many make the assumption, noise is power and what worked 40 odd yrs ago works on late 90's on, WRONG.

Riverbank I agree are just fleecing people, they've got a monopoly which shouldn't be allowed.  Governments are looking for the cheapest, fastest and as profitable as possible ways, to force older vehicles off the road, especially those doing daily commuting into cities/towns.  Iv'e said it many times, if you have to daily or often commute into London or any city and will do for at least a year, get yourself a late model maxi scooter.  You can pick them up for less than a years ULEZ charge, bearing in mind many other large cities and town either have a charge or soon will have.

The other point I'd take real issue with, is the statement apparently made by the bod at Riverside.  Apparently he said, "having a clean air filter will make the NOX higher" and then in the next breath and I quote  "he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass."

Utter bollocks, as will running higher octane fuel will reduce emissions, just shows you what they don't know.  Classic case of a little bit of knowledge and all that  :rolleyes

Pretty much anyone can be trained to strap a bike into a dyno and do a run, making sense of the reading from that run and implementing changes, is where the skill comes in.  Bit like the organ grinder and the monkey ;)  The bike was running higher emissions because it's either their dyno equipment is out of calibration (very common) or the bike isn't set up correctly and/or there's engine/component wear, again very common on nearly 20yr old bike, plain and simple. 

Restricted air filter will mean richer fuel mixture, richer fuel mixture = higher NOX. Also using higher octane fuel will increase emissions for an engine not tuned/designed to burn it and could reduce engine power.  Admittedly the difference between 95 & 98 will be small, but it will be there.  Pretty much all Jap bikes for decades are designed to run on fuel between 80 - 95 octane fuel.  One easy way to get more power is to increase compression, more compression and earlier ignition = more power but that increases heat, which in turn causes pre ignition or detonation.  Which means, you lose most of the gains of running higher compression.  To overcome this higher octane fuel was produced, it requires more heat to burn as such can run higher compression before ignition via compression heat or pre detonation.  Result more power due to a stable detention, the higher the octane the higher the compression = more power.

To burn higher octane fuel efficiently requires higher compression and more ignition advance. Just shoving in 98 will do absolutely nothing to increase power, possibly the opposite, probably not much, not even noticeable by the rider but there.  If you do nothing to the bike to accommodate running higher octane, you will get no increase in power a richer mixture and increased emissions, FACT
 
I had a chap contact me, who'd removed the CATs and EXUP valve from his XJR1300 and fitted a freeflow exhaust system at a cost of almost 3k, running on V power.  Now it doesn't start, idle or drive very well low end - mid range and then found out it's producing only 95bhp, standard a good one will put out 103 - 5. Unless the fuel/ignition systems are modified to take into account the changes they can't take advantage, not there is much anyway couple bhp at most.  Like many others I've seen and will see, he listened to internet plagisiers  :rolleyes  and wasted 3k.  To fix it either pay out more to get it properly set up or put it back to standard, which will cost him more as he destroyed his downtubes.  Fitting a cat doesn't mean less power and any reduction will be very small and only at the very top end and who rides around everywhere with the throttled nailed :lol     

What many UK bikes can and do benefit from is advancing the ignition by around 4* this makes starting, better and gives a cleaner/smoother burn, bike feels more responsive.  Some bikes actually produce a few hp lower down and in the emission holes manufactures create to get through type approval.  Why can you do this in the UK, because the engine is designed to run of fuel as low as 80 certainly low 90's, here in the UK all fuel is above 95. 

 
Later

Grahamm

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #73 on: 02 September 2021, 05:12:14 pm »
What many UK bikes can and do benefit from is advancing the ignition by around 4* this makes starting, better and gives a cleaner/smoother burn, bike feels more responsive.  Some bikes actually produce a few hp lower down and in the emission holes manufactures create to get through type approval.  Why can you do this in the UK, because the engine is designed to run of fuel as low as 80 certainly low 90's, here in the UK all fuel is above 95. 

This is what I've done on my FZ6, also I got a Power Commander III to smooth out the power delivery and take out the hole between 5-6k revs which Yamaha put in to give better emissions during testing...! :thumbup

I don't do any riding in London, fortunately ;)

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Re: FAQ: ULEZ charge and how it effects you!
« Reply #74 on: 05 September 2021, 01:15:12 am »
My 2000 FZS 600 level read 0.43, which he said was unusually high.
But after speaking to one of the staff I mentioned I cleaned my K&N air filter last week and he said that would not have helped at all and more than likely raised the level, although in the same breath he also said it wouldn't have been significant enough to make it pass.
So something to note, a dirty paper filter could actually lower your test results.


I had the Cat. fitted anyway, as i never really had much choice.
I was there about 70mins in total, which included the initial Dyno test, then having the Cat. fitted, then a retest again.
Whole lot cost £435  :'(


No power loss whatsoever, but it has changed the sound of the bike a little bit, but to be honest I like the new sound so no worries there.


I asked about how I will know when it's all well and good and was to told to download an app tomorrow called TFL DRIVE, and when I enter my Reg. Number it will state that my bike is exempt.


And finally it was pointed out to me that no bike is the same, so one bike may pass whereas another might fail, even if they are the same year and model of bike. This is due to many factors so there is no way of knowing what your bike will show up.


Did you happen to see what cat they installed? I need to get one fitted but buggered if I'm letting them do that to my pipe and charge that much for the pleasure!