close enough?

[brooker81]

http://imgur.com/gallery/8YSu4AS

[joebloggs]

Theres a good lesson to be learned from that clip. My Goldstar riding instructor always taught us to run wide on long sweeping corners just in case a driver was overtaking and unsighted, OK so not quite the same scenario but you get my point
My sister lost a friend in a car in a similar accident, the road was wide enough for three cars but by hugging the white line he didn't have time to react, OK so he wasn't in the wrong, but not much conciliation when you dead

[Val]

that was educational 

Having said that I am careful now when showing the finger, because few weeks ago in a more or less similar scenario I was waving my left hand with the finger very energetically which has made me to wobble a little exactly when passing between the car and the road verge. Almost got on the grass. And we all know what happens when you hit a patch of grass 

[fazersharp]

Well the biker was on the wrong side of the road for a start what do you expect

[joebloggs]

Well the biker was on the wrong side of the road for a start what do you expect

[Frosties]

Theres a good lesson to be learned from that clip. My Goldstar riding instructor always taught us to run wide on long sweeping corners just in case a driver was overtaking and unsighted, OK so not quite the same scenario but you get my point
My sister lost a friend in a car in a similar accident, the road was wide enough for three cars but by hugging the white line he didn't have time to react, OK so he wasn't in the wrong, but not much conciliation when you dead

Good shout there Joe - will start applying this 

[joebloggs]

Theres a good lesson to be learned from that clip. My Goldstar riding instructor always taught us to run wide on long sweeping corners just in case a driver was overtaking and unsighted, OK so not quite the same scenario but you get my point
My sister lost a friend in a car in a similar accident, the road was wide enough for three cars but by hugging the white line he didn't have time to react, OK so he wasn't in the wrong, but not much conciliation when you dead

Good shout there Joe - will start applying this 

I really meant stay out wide not run wide, either way it could save your life

[Val]

I really meant stay out wide not run wide, either way it could save your life

Joe you mean to stay out wide on right bends yes? Because on left bends in order to avoid overtaking drivers you need to actually make it tighter. Which I always do. Contrary to the concept to stay close to the white line to gain "visibility". I mean you can go to the white line before the bend and take a glance, but than stay out of the white line. Better safe than sorry 

[Grahamm]

on left bends in order to avoid overtaking drivers you need to actually make it tighter. Which I always do. Contrary to the concept to stay close to the white line to gain "visibility". I mean you can go to the white line before the bend and take a glance, but than stay out of the white line. Better safe than sorry 

The IAM rule is "Safety, Stability, View" in that order, ie getting a good view through the corner is only done *after* making sure you're in a safe position (or one that you can make safe) and you're not going to get destabilised by road crud, diesel, cats eyes etc which could put you in a dangerous position.

[joebloggs]

on left bends in order to avoid overtaking drivers you need to actually make it tighter. Which I always do. Contrary to the concept to stay close to the white line to gain "visibility". I mean you can go to the white line before the bend and take a glance, but than stay out of the white line. Better safe than sorry 

The IAM rule is "Safety, Stability, View" in that order, ie getting a good view through the corner is only done *after* making sure you're in a safe position (or one that you can make safe) and you're not going to get destabilised by road crud, diesel, cats eyes etc which could put you in a dangerous position.

I have not seen any IAM videos but did see quite a few videos posted by a police instructor using the ROSPA system and at times found the road positioning put riders into a potentially dangerous situation. He was posting on the MCN website and several of us picked this up, he had someone under instruction and on a left hand blind bend he had them sit on, or very close to the white line giving them the clearest line of site through the corner, fine, we could see that this made sense, except this allows very little room for manoeuvre if someone was to come in the opposite direction and slightly cut the corner. He tried to argue that this was not an issue but in the video you saw a car in the distance on another corner clearly over the line in what would have been the riders space had he been there.
I would also argue that providing your speed isn't excessive then being on a tighter line allows you extra space to adjust your road position if the corner was to tighten up dramatically. You could run wider and apex later without the risk of running over the white line, something your going to struggle with if your already on it. Now I understand how you use the vanishing point and the fact that you adjust your speed according to the distance you can see, but I still would say that if you were caught out by the radius of the turn you would be in greater danger than someone on a tighter line.

I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations

[Didier9]

I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations

Could not agree more. Certainly there are many recommendations and best practices that are worth knowing and practicing, if for no other reason that they make you predictable to other riders/drivers and that is usually a factor that reduces the risk of accident, but every time you take one of those and make it an absolute rule, you take the risk of applying it when it is not the best solution and we know how that can end up.

As always, exercise your best judgement in every circumstance. Practice helps greatly with that.

[Val]

I have not seen any IAM videos but did see quite a few videos posted by a police instructor using the ROSPA system and at times found the road positioning put riders into a potentially dangerous situation. He was posting on the MCN website and several of us picked this up, he had someone under instruction and on a left hand blind bend he had them sit on, or very close to the white line giving them the clearest line of site through the corner, fine, we could see that this made sense, except this allows very little room for manoeuvre if someone was to come in the opposite direction and slightly cut the corner. He tried to argue that this was not an issue but in the video you saw a car in the distance on another corner clearly over the line in what would have been the riders space had he been there.
I would also argue that providing your speed isn't excessive then being on a tighter line allows you extra space to adjust your road position if the corner was to tighten up dramatically. You could run wider and apex later without the risk of running over the white line, something your going to struggle with if your already on it. Now I understand how you use the vanishing point and the fact that you adjust your speed according to the distance you can see, but I still would say that if you were caught out by the radius of the turn you would be in greater danger than someone on a tighter line.

I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations

Could not agree more, that says it all 

One occasion when been tight is ok 

[Grahamm]

I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations

I haven't seen the videos you mention, so I don't know the exact situation, but certainly the IAM teaches you to apply the system flexibly and according to the circumstances you are faced with, not rigidly sticking to a rule.

If you have a link to those videos I'd be interested in seeing them.

[Smurfbud]

Staying close to the centre line in a left hand bend gives you maximum sight through the bend and maximum visibility of you to other road users, which should help them to see you and adjust their line through the bend accordingly if they are cutting the corner - however IAM also says always give up position for safety ... so you can have a look see early doors and then move away from the centre line if necessary .....

[Dave48]

Safety being paramount at all times, try using the saying( to yourself of course-noone will see you talking to yourself inside your full-face) "WHAT IF......?".
Experienced riders will use the road to their advantage(Position), maintain appropriate speed(Speed) and know what is happening or might be expected to happen all around them(Look).
Take the best teaching from all sources be it "Police Riders Manual", IAM, "Bikesafe".
Skills learnt early on will last you all your riding life & its never too late to learn something new/useful.

[joebloggs]

I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations

I haven't seen the videos you mention, so I don't know the exact situation, but certainly the IAM teaches you to apply the system flexibly and according to the circumstances you are faced with, not rigidly sticking to a rule.

If you have a link to those videos I'd be interested in seeing them.

I wouldn't know where to start looking for the video, it was along time ago on the MCN forum and there are thousands of posts on that topic.

[Val]

I believe any training is worthwhile but for me I wouldn't want the system to be so ridged it didn't allow riders to think for themselves in certain situations

I haven't seen the videos you mention, so I don't know the exact situation, but certainly the IAM teaches you to apply the system flexibly and according to the circumstances you are faced with, not rigidly sticking to a rule.

If you have a link to those videos I'd be interested in seeing them.

I wouldn't know where to start looking for the video, it was along time ago on the MCN forum and there are thousands of posts on that topic.

Worry not. I have the IAM video in question here, enjoy:

[slappy]

 

[Grahamm]

Worry not. I have the IAM video in question here, enjoy:

Thanks for that. I enjoy a good laugh at people who have no idea what they're talking about and think that's accurate.

[joebloggs]

 

I've seen a different version of that

Looks like everyone's adopting it

[noggythenog]

  .....i enjoyed that video.....no disrespect to you Graham......the iam is quite obviously advanced and useful but id doesnt exactly do too well with its appeal sometimes......neither does it care i imagine.......ill just stick to riding & trying to pay attention.....and hooning it of course

[Grahamm]

the iam is quite obviously advanced and useful but id doesnt exactly do too well with its appeal sometimes......neither does it care i imagine.......

Actually some of us *do* care and would like them to work on presenting a better image, unfortunately those at the top aren't necessarily interested in listening

[joebloggs]

I inquired about being assessed for AIM but was told I would be expected to keep within the limits
Not what I expected
And not real world riding for most

[Ian-man]

IAM cannot be seen to condone breaking the law, therefore all assessments and training etc are conducted within all speed limits.

[noggythenog]

I inquired about being assessed for AIM but was told I would be expected to keep within the limits
Not what I expected
And not real world riding for most

Expected....but not if theres reason to do otherwise i would guess???????......aint a race school at the end of the day and i suppose they have to officially say certain stuff or otherwise face the wrath of the law and since being kind of holier than thou then there are plenty looking to a tively criticise too........i dunno...im early 30's now and im not a loony....ive done some roadcraft.......sometimes i think you can over think....and everyone is different........some folks work well with systems and others work well with just cuffing it