Fully synthetic or part synthetic?

[jerbear]

Hi,
 I have a Gen 2 Fazer on an 07 plate with 5000 miles.
It's due an oil change but can't decide after research on here and other sites which to use.
I will be doing around 5000 miles per annum and not bothered about the extra cost of a fully synthetic. Read a bit about poss clutch problems with using a fully synthetic?
Any body with experience of this.
All help appreciated


Many thanks

[misterjayb1]

Quality bike-specific semi synth 10w40.. Anything else is overkill in my humble opinion..

[mtread]

Never had any clutch problems with fully synth. I tend to use it if I can get it at a good price, otherwise no hesitation in using semi.

[Rob R]

My Gen2 is a 2009 bike with 6000 miles on it. Used Shell Advanced Ultra 4T fully synthetic bike oil at my last oil change. The clutch feels very slightly grabby, but no problems with slippage. I'm not sure that it's worth the extra and will probably go back to semi-synth next service.
Rob

[Slaninar]

Hi,
 I have a Gen 2 Fazer on an 07 plate with 5000 miles.
It's due an oil change but can't decide after research on here and other sites which to use.
I will be doing around 5000 miles per annum and not bothered about the extra cost of a fully synthetic. Read a bit about poss clutch problems with using a fully synthetic?
Any body with experience of this.
All help appreciated


Many thanks

Synthetic oil does not cause clutch slippage. Car oil with anti-friction modifiers causes clutch slippage. That or bat clutch.


Fully synthetic bike specific oil is as good as it gets. I see no point in sparing a few euros per whole year in order to get an oil that is less good.


Better cold start, less engine wear, longer change intervals (less hassle with it, even cost savings) - all in favour of the fully synthetic.




Downside is it will show any weak seal - with mineral, or semi synth, even bad seals get gummed up and hold, when you put fully synthetic oil, bad seals will show and you'll have to change them, they will leak.


I'd recommend Motul 7100 10w40 fully synthetic oil. The new (as of 2014 i think) version is JASO MA2 certified - that is as good as it gets for the wet clutch!

[PieEater]

I've had no particular reason to differ from the manufacturers recommend semi synthetic.  I do make it a habit of changing the oil at least every 4k and of fitting a new OEM filter at the same time. Out of interest I checked what oil the rider of the 200k Gen1 used and it seemed she favoured Mobil 1 synthetic so that may be an endorsement of sorts but again she changed the oil every 4k so it could just as much be down to frequent regular changes. I don't think you'll get a concensus of opinion on this subject wherever you ask, you may as well flip a coin.

[Slaninar]

Don't believe anyone actually argues fully synth is the best. Some just argue whether it is worth the money, that is, does semi synth do the job just as well.

Frequent oil changes do no good to engine. Unless doing track days, just stick to the user manual and pour good quality oil.

[PieEater]

Frequent oil changes do no good to engine.

The manufacturers recommended oil change period is 4000 miles or every 6 months for both generations of the Fazer Thou, I would personally class this as frequent and regular especially given the example that I used of someone covering 200k. If you are saying that Yamaha have got this wrong then perhaps you can take it up with them and let us know how you get on.

[Slaninar]

Frequent oil changes do no good to engine.

The manufacturers recommended oil change period is 4000 miles or every 6 months for both generations of the Fazer Thou, I would personally class this as frequent and regular especially given the example that I used of someone covering 200k. If you are saying that Yamaha have got this wrong then perhaps you can take it up with them and let us know how you get on.

I mean't no need to be more frequent than the manufacturer recommends. Like I said: "stick to the manual".

[PaulSmith]

The difference between dino, semi and fully synthetic oil (other then price) is how long it takes to break down. If you are going to ride around the world without a service, or go 9 years between changes, then fully synth is the only choice. If you are going change the oil and filter every 2 years or 8000 miles (which ever comes first) then semi-synth is ideal for your needs. If you change every year or 5000 miles (which ever comes first), then dino is perfectly good for your needs. It is your bike, so it is your choice.

[Slaninar]

I'd still argue that fully synth provides the best engine protection, plus a bit of fuel savings because of lower friction. Nothing much, perhaps around 1%, but enough to make the price difference between dyno and fully synth a non-existent. That's why I'd almost always go for good fully synth oil.

[PieEater]

The difference between dino, semi and fully synthetic oil (other then price) is how long it takes to break down. If you are going to ride around the world without a service, or go 9 years between changes, then fully synth is the only choice. If you are going change the oil and filter every 2 years or 8000 miles (which ever comes first) then semi-synth is ideal for your needs. If you change every year or 5000 miles (which ever comes first), then dino is perfectly good for your needs. It is your bike, so it is your choice.

Remind me never to buy a bike from you 

[PaulSmith]

Remind me never to buy a bike from you 

Care to share your reasons?

You are someone who (I believe) changes their oil a) themselves, and b) at service intervals or more frequently. Yes?
Do you look at the condition of the oil coming out? Not its colour, its condition. Do you look at the state of the filter? If, based on what you have found in the oil, you think your Fazer needs fully-synth, then I hope you wont mind if I decline your kind offer to sell me your otherwise excellent bike. If you choose to use fully-synth, for piece of mind or  as a way of 'indulging' your bike then, as I said before, it is your bike and your choice.
 

[Adam2201]

while we're on the subject of oil, has anyone used Westway Lubricants before?


I found their shop on ebay, they do 5L of MA2 fully synth for £21.99 (£18.99 for 5L semi synth) delivered http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5L-Fully-Synthetic-10W-40-10W40-Motorcycle-Oil-4-Stroke-JASO-MA2-10W-40-/111838862300?hash=item1a0a1d9bdc .  They sell fork oil and brake fluid as well.


I've still got a fair bit of Motul left from my last change, but might give them a try next time.

[Dave48]

while we're on the subject of oil, has anyone used Westway Lubricants before?


I found their shop on ebay, they do 5L of MA2 fully synth for £21.99 (£18.99 for 5L semi synth) delivered http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5L-Fully-Synthetic-10W-40-10W40-Motorcycle-Oil-4-Stroke-JASO-MA2-10W-40-/111838862300?hash=item1a0a1d9bdc .  They sell fork oil and brake fluid as well.


I've still got a fair bit of Motul left from my last change, but might give them a try next time.

Thanks for this info. Have been looking for a supplier of  fully synthetic car oil-all their prices are competitive and a lot cheaper than some "brands". At the end of the day its the specification that matters-not the pretty packaging!

[PieEater]

Remind me never to buy a bike from you 

Care to share your reasons?

The manufacturers recommended oil change period is 4000 miles or every 6 months for both generations of the Fazer Thou

If you are going change the oil and filter every 2 years or 8000 miles (which ever comes first) then semi-synth is ideal for your needs.

[PaulSmith]

...

I am aware of the manufacturers recommendations. I am also aware of the quality of petrol that I use and the conditions that I (and most people on this forum) ride in and how they relate to the worst case conditions that the manufacturers recommendations must deal with. And I have a little knowledge of how oil works and what makes it break down. You yourself have mentioned two extremes of use, the 200k bike and a race/track day bike, and seem to accept that they require different treatment though I am not sure you knew why.

I did not suggest that you ignore the manufacturers recommendations, I suggested that you make an informed decision on the minimum oil quality you need based on your bikes usage, and for that, you have suggested that my bike is not well cared for.

So I ask again, do you know how to check the condition of the oil in your bike/car/bus/van or lawn mower so you can make an informed decision?
[Here is a hint, try googling 'oil blob tests'. They are not exactly difficult.]   

[Slaninar]

DIY oil test:

http://themotoroilevaluator.com/members-blog/poor-mans-oil-analysis/#axzz47mBfgFga

[PieEater]

.....

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. You gave specific example mileages for specific oil types all of which well exceed the manufacturers recommendations. You justify skipping up to 3 out of 4 oil changes (once every 2 years) on the basis that you know how to check the quality of used oil and so you are happy to use your judgement as to when it needs changing. I'm more interested in prolonging the life of my bike than the life of the oil that's in it, so I'll stick to the recommended intervals and the recommended oil.

The question as to how well your bike is cared for only came up after you indicated that you don't follow Yamaha's guidance on oil changes, so as far as I'm concerned that ball is in your court. However I haven't meant to offend you in any way so I apologise if that has been the case.

The post where I compared "two extremes of use, the 200k bike and a race/track day bike" doesn't exist, it's not exactly fair to question my intelligence on something I didn't say.

Like I said in my first post there is little consensus to be found on this topic ..............

[PaulSmith]

I've had no particular reason to differ from the manufacturers recommend semi synthetic. 

Good for you, but the original owner of the bike in question would have had to change oil every 278 miles or less (18 changes in nine years) to met those recommendations. I did not 'justify' skipping changes, I offered advice that might be useful to those not in a position to follow the official recommendations.
You on the other hand would appear to be saying that if you follow the rules, you can avoid having to think. For your information, I check the quality and condition of my oil roughly every 1000 miles, and while I have never had a problem on the Fazer, these tests have detected gasket and piston ring failures in other engines early enough to save me a shit load of cash.

...Out of interest I checked what oil the rider of the 200k Gen1 used ...

Good. I didn't imagine it, though it was Slaninar who mentioned the track day.

[PieEater]

Oh sheet you called it, I'm real stupid and just can't think for myself so I just have to listen to Mr Yamaha's advice and can't pay no mind to smart folks like you tellin' me it's fine to use mineral oil as long as I be changin' it every year, or I can skip every 3 changes if I use that semi synthetic oil. You know what they say about us dumb people, you just can't get them to change their ways, and I must be real dumb because I aint never going to take your advice. I hope there are more dumb people out there like me who listen to that nice Mr Yamaha when he tells them how to look after their motorcycles rather than clever folks who say you'd be better off doin' your own thing. And that's 'bout all I have to say 'bout that.

[PaulSmith]

Oh sheet you called it, I'm real stupid ...

Well obviously. 

If you are following Yamaha's recommendations then you don't need my advice, since my advice was about what to do if you can't follow Yamaha's advice. Let me try to make it a little easier for you to understand. 
It is fine to use mineral oil if you are changing every year or 5000 miles. It is better to follow Yamaha's advice and use semi-synth every 6 months or 4000 miles.
It is fine to use semi-synth if you are changing every two years or 10000 miles. It is better to follow Yamaha's advice and use semi-synth every 6 months or 4000 miles.
You should use fully-synth if you are changing less then every two years or more then 10000 miles. It is better to follow Yamaha's advice and use semi-synth every 6 months or 4000 miles.

It is not better to follow Yamaha's advice of waiting 6 months or 4000 miles if you have exhaust gases contaminating your oil.
It is not better to follow Yamaha's advice of waiting 6 months or 4000 miles if you have coolant contaminating your oil.
It is not better to follow Yamaha's advice of waiting 6 months or 4000 miles if your oil level drops.
It is not better to follow Yamaha's advice of waiting 6 months or 4000 miles if you have evidence of oil breakdown.
It is not better to follow Yamaha's advice of waiting 6 months or 4000 miles if you use your bike in race conditions.

Would you really like to compare the condition of the oil in your engine with that in mine? It costs about £30 from the likes of http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/millercare.asp but I am happy to use someone else if you prefer. We could publish the results here for all to see. If you want to make a bet of it, the person with the poorer oil condition can pay for the others test. Interested?

[Slaninar]

Are you sure Yamaha recommends type of oil like mineral, or semi synth? All I saw was API standard required. For FZS 600 it's API SG, and it comes in mineral and semi synth, while most fully synth oils exceed that standard.


Fully synthetic oil will protect engine best. Manufacturer's recommendations are OK, can't go wrong with that, but going better doesn't do harm - depending on how long you plan to keep the current motorcycle. Using fully syinth has two advantages:


1) Engine is cleanest, no burnt oil residues
2) Minimal fuel savings that make price difference almost none in the regular oil change interval (unless you ride less than 3000 miles per season)
3) Whatever happens, you are 100% certain it's not the oil - since you are using the best available
4) Better cold start protection - first few minutes after cold start make most of the engine wear, unless revving to the redline on a track.
5) Longer change intervals, with still providing better protection than mineral/semi synth oils - less hassle and lower cost - if riding higher anual mileages.

[Fazerider]

while we're on the subject of oil, has anyone used Westway Lubricants before?


I found their shop on ebay, they do 5L of MA2 fully synth for £21.99 (£18.99 for 5L semi synth) delivered http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5L-Fully-Synthetic-10W-40-10W40-Motorcycle-Oil-4-Stroke-JASO-MA2-10W-40-/111838862300?hash=item1a0a1d9bdc .  They sell fork oil and brake fluid as well.


I've still got a fair bit of Motul left from my last change, but might give them a try next time.

Yes, it's what I put in at the last oil change.
Though that was Wednesday, so I can report that the bike is still running OK after 70 miles. 

[NorthWestern]

I don't think it matters at all for road bikes. <duck>

Manufacturers recommendations will be for liability as much as anything else.  Mates of mine who are fair weather boys (nothing wrong with that) change theirs every year without fail even though they have done less than 1500 miles or so, they seem to take great pleasure in the task.   It won't harm anything will it, £30 a year or so is cheap.

Now, the following is not a recommendation its simply my direct experience (and I have seen inside my fair share of race engines).

I use mine for a 90 mile daily commute, all year round.

My Fazer 1000 has done over 85k now, the last 35k I put on in the last 2 years or so it has never had an oil change as such.  It has not had an oil filter change in this time (oops, I do have a new filter, might put that on tomorrow...).  So that's 35k, no oil change, no filter change.  The caveat being, as with a lot of Gen 1's it does use about 100 or 150 ml each 500 miles (so a week or so depending on if I go for a blast now and then).  Thus I am constantly topping it up.

It runs perfectly.  Never misses a beat, gear changes are as slick as ever, clutch is perfect (never had to touch it) isn't noisy, doesn't smoke, starts first time, easy on fuel.  Took a peek inside, its perfect - cam, gearbox - look as good as could be.

People will tell me that it's crazy, asking for trouble, this will happen, that will definitely happen - but they have no first hand experience, just here-say and "forum wisdom".  It doesn't, its perfect, its experience.  Someone might say "your talking rubbish, my mate had this that and the other and such-a-thing happened", well in my experience of running high mileage it's just not the case.

The worst thing you can do is run it low/empty of oil.  If it at least has some in they its better than nothing, fully synth, mineral, veg oil...  Run it low or dry then it will go in a very short space of time.

I use fully synth (Motul 300V or lately Silkolene Pro4 as it was on offer at the time) but i do tend to get it cheap or free (from my bro) but the difference is negligible really.  I have also (in an attempt to slow the oil consumption) used a thicker oil than recommended, ran 4 litres of that for many thousands of miles, no issues.  It did slow the consumption a bit... A lot of people would think it would cause massive, life threatening problems (even for anyone remotely related to you - or had simply heard you ride a bike) but the reality is its fine - I probably did more miles with it than a lot do for the careful ownerships of their bikes.

With that in mind, I might be selling it soon, any takers?  Religiously maintained...