Installation thread for Debrix fork cartridge emulators - Group buyers

[wezdavo]

Mine have arrived! Thanks Jeff, great service! Alas won't be fiddling this weekend but hopefully the following, can't wait to have non-utterly-crap suspension 


Been reading the various threads and having a think about the hole sizes needed to be drilled in the damper rod. Having got the emus now it strikes me that we just need to match the area of the drilled holes to the 3 elliptical holes on the bottom of the emu, no point going larger than them as they won't flow any more oil, unless my brain isn't working right.


Anyway they're not easy to measure as they're not proper ellipses but I guesstimated at them being about 12.5x8mm then got an area of 78.54mm2 from here:
http://www.calculateme.com/cArea/AreaOfEllipse.htm
So total area of 235.62mm2


4 x 10mm holes gives 314.16mm24 x 9.5mm holes gives 283.53mm2
4 x 9mm holes gives 254.47mm2
4 x 8.5mm holes gives 226.98mm2


If anybody can measure the emu holes more accurately that would be handy otherwise I might just plump for 9.5mm holes, if I've got a 9.5mm drill that is


Cheers,
Rob

 
Good work, racetech recommend 6 x 8mm holes, which gives 301.44mm

[Fazerider]

Yay! Mine have arrived too, many thanks Jeff. 
Nicely made, though a little de-burring and cleaning will be the first job.

[kebab19]

Good to see the old gray matter taking hold regarding drill hole diameters

Although you guys are the first to get the emus, a gentleman in OZ previously contacted me via PMs about the mod (didn't know they sold the Fzs600 there). I am reproducing part of 'someonehappy' s correspondence with me, hopefully he won't object !

"Hi Kebab,

...I got the emulators installed.

it's a perfect fit to the damping rod.
I didn't get the chance to find a proper table drill so I ended up with just drilled two wholes, 10mm diameter.
I used 15wt castrol fork oil with about 120mm oil level.
The emulator preload spring is about 2 turns.
I didn't change anything else.

The initial feeling is quite strange.  The low speed compression is quite high, which is not bad. But the small bumps on the road is hardly to be noticed which makes me feel a little bit lack of feeling. And it's a little bit too harsh when encountering real big bumps.
Then I did some change, I replace about half the oil to 10wt castrol fork oil to make it approximately 12.5 wt.
And I change the emulator preload spring to about 2.75 turns.
After these changes, the low speed compression is smaller, and still acceptable.
The feeling for small bumps is improved, but I felt the damping for big bumps is a little bit too small.

Then I did the another change.
I added about 10mm 10wt oil for each leg.
This improved the damping when hitting big bumps, seems no longer that easy to bottom up.

So my setup till now is roughly 12.5wt fork oil with 130mm oil level, and emulator preload spring is 2.75 turns.
I'm going to keep trying different settings to improve the feeling. It seems change oil level is really make some difference that you can feel, and it's quite easy to do. I'm going to withdraw about 5mm oil next time.

And I probably will change the rear shock and front spring later. I think stiffer spring could help to make it better.

In short, I think the improvement is very good, worth the money and effort.

Regards"

Looking at this report, I'm thinking that for Somonehappy, the 2 x 10mm holes he drilled just weren't quite enough, although with a lot of perseverance he still got what he felt was a decent result. I suspect that here the original compression circuit was still restricting the emulators from functioning fully.
If I was doing the mod again (and I am) I would consider starting either with four x 9mm holes, or the two lowest holes 10mm & the upper two either 9 or 9.5mm.

Regarding fork oil, apparently a lot of stuff is rounded up (or down) weight-wise. So oil that is 8w or 12w can be sold on as 10w. I *think* I remember reading somewhere that Yamalube oil weight values were quite close to what was on the label, although if your local dealer doesn't have any I guess you can go for other brands.

UPDATE: I have added a lot of updated pics to the Racetech / Debrix thread showing rods with lowest holes 10mm and upper holes 9.5mm

[wezdavo]

The mod is underway!
All has gone well so far apart from undoing the damper rods... Someone in the past had used blue locktite 
 
Eventually got them out but had to make a tool using tube and studding to expand inside the rod to hold it still while using and impact wrench to undo the bolt
Anyway, one curious thing so far... In Kebabs pictures his damper rod measures around 200mm where as my 2003 damper rod only measures 181mm..
I have drilled 4 x 10mm holes in the rods and they are ready to fit back in.
Just checked with aj Sutton and the rods are different part numbers, they changed to the shorter rod in 2000 so that explains the difference in length..
 
 

[kebab19]

Nice work!
My high-tech damper rod holder was a wooden broom handle 

Didn't know the rods changed length as my two Fazers have been 1998 & 1999 bikes. Another update to instructions, then, and all the more reason to drill only four holes to keep them over 120mm away from upper lip.

[wezdavo]

All done
 
Emulators set at 2.75 turns
 
4 x 10mm holes..
 
Putoline 15w oil
 
135mm air gap..
 
5 rings showing on preload adjusters..
 
As I have wilbers springs that require 25-40mm of installed preload I had to cut 10mm from the spacers..
 
Just measured sag and its bang on first time!  22mm free sag and 35mm rider sag..
 
I am 95kg geared up..
 
I will go for a spin and report back....
 
 
Been for a 2 hour ride, The bike feels great! Sweeping bends felt a lot safer, one in particular that I ride @ 120ish has always felt on the edge as its a little uneven and used to unsettle the bike which isn't confidence inspiring. But today same bend same speed felt much more stable.
Dive is much less also, which seems to be making braking distances shorter..
 
All in all, its great, and a big thank you to Kebab for all his effort in this..
 
Next for me is to replace my thou shock with a r6 one I have just bought... Looks like I will be tapping up kebab again for more info on the spacer needed

[kebab19]

That's excellent news, Wez.
The differences don't feel drastic at first, a bit subtle really until you realise you're going effortlessly over roads that previously battered your arms & shoulders. You can retain your lines through corners with a lot more precision...and usually nearly 10mph faster too.

The R6 rear shock will make a superb addition to your setup, PM Fuzzy if you want to know what he makes of it. Happy to sort out spacer / top bushing etc as I did with his.

[Fuzzy]

The R6 rear shock will make a superb addition to your setup, PM Fuzzy if you want to know what he makes of it. Happy to sort out spacer / top bushing etc as I did with his.

Yes, do feel free to get in touch - in short the R6 shock mod is flippin fantastic! I don't think I'm alone when I say Mr Kebab is our resident suspension genius, the shock mod has had excellent results and was great value, by the sounds of it the forks/emulators is no different 

[Robbus]

While I've got my thinking hat on, i.e. I'm skiving at work, could someone let me know the relevant torque settings for the job at hand? Calliper bolts, joke bolts, axle stuff etc.? I'm lacking a Haynes manual in my life at the mo'.

Oh, and mega dumb question, how do you measure the air gap, is it with the fork extended or not? I expect it'll become obvious when I look in the them but best to ask!

Cheers,
Rob

[Dead Eye]

There is a downloadable Haynes on the site; http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=22

Its mostly for the Boxeye but anything not relating to electronics / fairing is pretty much identical

[kebab19]

That's handy, didn't know there was a Haynes held on the site!
The usual general rule applies, the larger the bolt the more torque needed. The bottom damping rod bolts are the possible exception - it depends whether you want to secure them using blue loctite as normal or just torque 'em a bit more without loctite (as you may have to disassemble forks again if your damper rod's drilled holes are too small).


Regarding air gap, very similar to standard oil height measurement - forks compressed, springs & spacers out but emulator still in place (as it obviously displaces a certain volume of oil).

[Robbus]

There is a downloadable Haynes on the site; http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=22

Its mostly for the Boxeye but anything not relating to electronics / fairing is pretty much identical

 

[Robbus]

Regarding air gap, very similar to standard oil height measurement - forks compressed, springs & spacers out but emulator still in place (as it obviously displaces a certain volume of oil).

Thanks Jeff. I noticed on the link you provided about changing seals it mentioned the stanchions can jam if they go too low, is this a nice little minefield then? Is there an obvious point in the stanchions movement that's "that's far enough" or is it a just drop 'em and see dealeo?


Cheers,
Rob

[kebab19]

They can indeed jam which is a PITA. Hard to explain, but it'll be obvious if you do it. If you have oil in them & try and force slider up it can turn into a mess trying to free it off!

I managed to free mine off fairly easily. Reattach fork cap to avoid spillage & re-insert the fork leg back into it's yoke & then tighten the bolts. Then use a rubber mallet to thump on the lower stanchion where the dust seal rests. A well placed blow usually forces the two apart again. Probably sounds a bit barbaric but a rubber mallet shouldn't do any real damage!

[Robbus]

OK, progress so far:




Both forks off and guts removed!

Details

Noticed the right fork damper rod was missing the very small spring at the bottom, or to put that another way, the left fork had an extra spring. Can't see what on earth it does. Was a bit surprised how short the springs were


Damper rod removal system.

Details

Old oil, still got a strong red tinge so suggests it's been changed some when in the not too far past.

Details

Both forks jammed - hurrah. However after removing the damper rod they freed straight up, so a bit of care on reassembly and all should be good.


Right, time to drill the rods and chop the spacer tube.


Cheers,
Rob

[bbb]

When you say it had an 'extra' spring do you mean the top-out spring or something not in the pics. Just curious.

[Robbus]

You can just see it in the first  pic, left set of innards, between the preload cap and the main spring. It's tiny. I looked in the fork seal thread and there wasn't one in any of those pics.


Rods drilled now and spacers chopped. Drilled to 9mm and set emu to 2.5 turns, hoping for a smooooth ride! Starting to put things back together now.


Cheers,
Rob

[Robbus]

OK, results are in, generally a big improvement. I may have pushed my expectations a little far hoping for a magic carpet ride over some of the unclassified roads around me but it was still better on them than before. On As and decent Bs it was very nice and smooth, even when aimed deliberately at some potholes. Still need to measure the sag and tweak the preload then I'll live with it for a while before deciding if I need to tweak the emu or not.


Guess I also need to save some pennies for the R6 shock too, d'oh! 


Cheers,
Rob

[kebab19]

Hi Rob,
Glad you've got a good starting point. Can I ask if you have standard or aftermarket springs?
Don't write the emus off just yet, sometimes a bit of tweaking can get them where you want 'em.

[wezdavo]

Hi Rob,
Have you put a zip tie on the stantion to see how much travel you are using?
 
What air gap and oil weight did you use?

[Robbus]

Hi Guys,

Standard springs as far as I know. I went with a 130mm air gap and 15wt oil. Definitely not writing of the emus, there's a clear improvement and will no doubt make my usual riding a more pleasant affair now. Good idea on the zip tie though, I'll pop one on tomorrow and see what I get.

Cheers,
Rob

[Robbus]

OK, zip ties reveal I'm bottoming out, so for starters I'd best ramp up the preload a far bit. Looking at the troubleshooting diagram on the burgman thread:
http://burgmanusa.com/bkb/650+Race+Tech+Installation


I guess I've got too little compression damping, so I guess I need to tweak the emu to maybe 3 turns.


Cheers,
Rob

[kebab19]

Rob,
Hard to say for sure, but it may be the standard springs holding things back.
Both my conversions used alternative fork springs and it may be the case that the FZS springs just aren't up to the job no matter what tweaking you do.
Although I used Racetech linear springs 1st time round, with the Debrix emu installation I used Honda VFR progressive springs. The improvement appears to be in the length of spring dedicated to hard / soft. The pictures below indicate the VFR springs, then a pic with a TRX850 linear spring and the bottom spring from my Fazer 600. The difference in the amount of tighter wound coils is quite obvious between VFR & Fazer. I suspect that this is the problem, and Yamaha got the ratio & spring rate wrong for the bike - too much spring dedicated to soft travel and the stiff part of the spring too high a spring rate to try & compensate.
Rather than choking on £85 for suitable K-tech linear springs, you can get 41 mm springs from other bikes to fit for £10-30 if you're patient on ebay. I'll keep a lookout & let you know if I see anything that may be suitable if you want.

VFR 800 (pre V-tech) springs:


TRX850 spring & FZS Fazer spring:

[Robbus]

Thanks Jeff, much appreciated. I think you're definitely on to something with the springs as most people are just swapping them out for Hagon stylee and claiming an improvement.


Cheers,
Rob

[wezdavo]

Rob, You could raise the oil height to so your air gap is 120mm, this would help
I have wilbers springs and weigh 95kg and have 20mm of travel left after the hardest of riding...