quiet when cold, rattles like mad when warm ??

[markaboot]

first off yes i have searched    i just get bombarded with the usual cam chain rattle when cold until warm.


i have had cam chain rattle previously but usually sorts itself or the old roll backwards in gear trick sorts it.




however i have been riding all winter this year so probably never going over 6000 revs. so the slight rattle i could hear sounded like a lose nut or washer, nothing serious or loud just annoying.  thought it may have been valve clearances because it sounded a bit tapety.


last sunday i went for a blast, bike sounded normal at first but after half a day spirited ride i noticed the rattle was much louder. now after lunch it was quiet again untill it warmed up. it had a good blast all day and tensioner didnt adjust like i'd expect.


the rattle started at around 6000 like the usual vibration you usually get but over time its been kicking in lower down the revs. now its starts around 2000 revs and is much louder but still only when warm.


bike has only done 20,000. gets ridden daily 15min to work and back and the odd weekend blast in summer.


any ideas? surley cam chain isn't worn yet, they usually last 50000 dont they?

[darrsi]

From personal experience and reading on here they tend to start going around the 30,000 mark.


Any chance of a video when warmed up so we can hear it, it's quite a distinctive sound.


Or have a look through YouTube for other Fazer's rattle and see if it sounds the same.


They normally rattle more when cold though 'cos the oil's not warmed up, so that's a bit unusual.

[Dead Eye]

What makes you think that it isn't the cam chain?

Only real way to check is to remove the tensioner and see how many adjustments you have left, but that's not exactly the easiest job, especially if you have the carbs still in place. Plenty of other stories where the cam chain has rattled for 3-4k before it finally adjusts. I wouldn't have thought you'd need to replace it yet though...

[markaboot]

i will post a vid up soon. yea its unusual, thats why im stumped. otherwise i'd have put it down to cam chain. maybe the chain expands then becomes slack enough to rattle.


i'm not ruling out cam chain, it just seems unusual for it to go so early. i've had it rattle before but never so loud.


i'll stick the camera on n go out for a ride.

[Gnasher]

Is the noise still there if you pull the clutch in?  If you increase the revs does the noise go or get worse? 

[markaboot]

Is the noise still there if you pull the clutch in?  If you increase the revs does the noise go or get worse?

yea when i pull the clutch, roll and let revs drop noise goes. increased revs increases the rattle.
i'm having battery issues at the moment so haven't had chance to sort a video out.


however i did roll backwards down the back alley again and its seems to have improved slightly but hasn't cured it. its still there but not as loud.


i'm still thinking cam chain, need to get the carbs off n check the tensioner 

[Fazerider]

Earplugs! 

[markaboot]

well i've had a play and all is not well 


after following the haynes manual i removed the carbs the long and difficult way. got the tensioner out and it looked like this.



its spotless, no gunk, moves freely, little to no wear. i cant push the tensioner back out by hand without releasing the ratchet.  i counted 8 notches.


when pushed all the way out it looked like this

i counted about 13 or 14 notches at its maximum. so i don't think the chain is beyond its wear limit.


on the advice of a bike mechanic friend i added an extra bearing to increase the spring strength. i didnt have a bearing but used an m3 nut instead in this order.



i then put all the relevant bits back on etc etc and rode the bike home. as usual within ten mins of riding the rattle was back    balls!


so earlier today i decided i would manually advance the tensioner by one click. got the carbs off again, this time without undoing everything as haynes suggests and just lifting them up out the way. as i put the tensioner back in (now adjusted by one click) it seemed tight before it reached the engine block, the bolts pulled it in the last 3mm or so.
everything back on, cracked her up and within ten mins engine is rattling away again, no change    balls again!


now i have to repeat the whole process again to return the tensioner back it its correct auto adjusted position.






so i think i can safely rule out the cam chain tension as the problem?
so if its not cam chain rattle, what else could it be? valve clearances?


by the way if not already mentioned bike is just under the 20000 mark. sorry for the huge pics!

[markaboot]

also here is a video as promised

FZS600 Fazer Engine Rattle

this is after my short jouney home from work. also have a full length video of that journey so you can hear the noise develop, just waiting for it to upload.

[markaboot]

FZS600 engine rattle developing as engine warms

i know its long and dull and to most pointless but it does show the time scale at which this noise develops, for those that are interested lol.

[darrsi]

That's not cam chain rattle, it's not as harsh sounding as that.

[markaboot]

yea well i've had cam rattle before and it was never this harsh, plus with the tensioner checked i think i've ruled that out.

[unfazed]

Sounds like a dodgy water punp. Check and see if the noise is coming from around the front sprocket area.

[markaboot]

the noise is low down or central, tbh its really hard to pin point its location or even which side. i'll try the screwdriver to the ear trick tomorrow.

[markaboot]

Water pump is fine, no play, clean and no sign of any mayo.

Also did a compression check round my mates and got 90psi on each cylinder. Haynes says 170 min but I did this dry, with the other plugs in and a dieing batt.
Didn't want to bother him too long as he was busy but got even results so didn't put oil down.

He did suggest that as I have never changed the coolant it was possible that a previous owner has put some oil in instead of or as well as coolant to stop corrosion.

Think the next job is rocker cover off and check valve clearances.

[darrsi]

Bit stumped by this noise to be honest.
I just showed the first video to a mate of mine and you can hear the rattle much more clearly using a mobile phone, it makes the sound very prominent and separates it from normal engine noise.

[His Dudeness]

stick a screwdriver on the starter clutch cover and have a listen. they can rattle

[markaboot]

stick a screwdriver on the starter clutch cover and have a listen. they can rattle

will do, thanks.


i do have starting issues sometimes, where battery seems to die for no reason. i can crack bike up fine, ride 10 mins home, park up on the back alley open the gate. get back on and i have nothing, just dead.


guess i'll just have to keep pulling things apart till i find the problem.

[Gnasher]

the noise is low down or central, tbh its really hard to pin point its location or even which side. i'll try the screwdriver to the ear trick tomorrow.

Have you checked the carb balance as out of balance carbs can give you a very similar noise?

[markaboot]

the noise is low down or central, tbh its really hard to pin point its location or even which side. i'll try the screwdriver to the ear trick tomorrow.

Have you checked the carb balance as out of balance carbs can give you a very similar noise?

carbs were balanced last year, can they really be that out in that space of time?

[markaboot]

stick a screwdriver on the starter clutch cover and have a listen. they can rattle

will do, thanks.


i do have starting issues sometimes, where battery seems to die for no reason. i can crack bike up fine, ride 10 mins home, park up on the back alley open the gate. get back on and i have nothing, just dead.


guess i'll just have to keep pulling things apart till i find the problem.

after the old screw driver trick, the noise seems to be top / central. mainly concentrated around the tensioner. i seem to be back to cam chain again.


now after that compression check being at 90psi, is it possible that some how the timing is out? or a slack chain would lead to timing being out?
is it at all possible for a tooth to skip and there be slack in the wrong place?


think its time i took the rocker cover off.

[Gnasher]

the noise is low down or central, tbh its really hard to pin point its location or even which side. i'll try the screwdriver to the ear trick tomorrow.

Have you checked the carb balance as out of balance carbs can give you a very similar noise?

carbs were balanced last year, can they really be that out in that space of time?

They sure can balancing carbs is not just a simple matter of twiddling the sync screws to get the needles all the same it really isn't.   

[unfazed]

Timing would want to be off by a good few teeth before it would bring compression down to 90psi and the  valves would be hitting pistons by then.
When I replaced my chain, the old one was one 1 1/2 length longer than the replacement.
I check the valve clearance for a friend last year and discoverd whoever replace the chain on his bike before he bought it had the timing on the exhaust cam out by one tooh and the bike appeared to be running fine.  I  lifted the cams and reset the timing to the correct position and put it all back together he took it for a spin and said he found absolutel no difference in the performance.
All the issues you have described point to the water pump, but you appear to have ruled that out. Never heard of cam chain or tensioner on a fazer rattling when hot and quite when cold, it has always been the oppisite. For out of balance to cause that kind of sound it would not even run.
Other possibilites are worn clutch drum, starter clutch as some else has mentioned cam shaft end float or a cracked shim or valve lifter, list is endless.
It is really now a process of elimination.

[markaboot]

Timing would want to be off by a good few teeth before it would bring compression down to 90psi and the  valves would be hitting pistons by then.
When I replaced my chain, the old one was one 1 1/2 length longer than the replacement.
I check the valve clearance for a friend last year and discoverd whoever replace the chain on his bike before he bought it had the timing on the exhaust cam out by one tooh and the bike appeared to be running fine.  I  lifted the cams and reset the timing to the correct position and put it all back together he took it for a spin and said he found absolutel no difference in the performance.
All the issues you have described point to the water pump, but you appear to have ruled that out. Never heard of cam chain or tensioner on a fazer rattling when hot and quite when cold, it has always been the oppisite. For out of balance to cause that kind of sound it would not even run.
Other possibilites are worn clutch drum, starter clutch as some else has mentioned cam shaft end float or a cracked shim or valve lifter, list is endless.
It is really now a process of elimination.

i will check the compression again when my 10mm adapter arrives, it was a quick check and if i'd done it at home i'd have taken my time with it.
might be checking the valve clearances this weekend so can check timing too, will also check the cam lobes etc at same time.












here is said water pump, nothing obvious to me when i had it out.
bearings ran smooth, if a little tight. seals looked in good nick.
i have now cleaned the pump as it was impossible to tell if anything was leaking from the drain hole due to it being caked in chain lube and muck.


i drained the water off and again had a slight rusty orange tinge and slight smell to it but this could be residue from previous coolant.
fresh in again with rad flush this time, will be putting anti freeze in at the weekend sometime.


i will certainly be keeping an eye on this and checking again in the future, haven't ruled it out yet.

[unfazed]

A bit of pitting on the shaft, but would not appear to be enough to cause the rattle you have. However the clearance on the impleller to casing is very small and the least bit of wear could cause a rattle as the impeller hits the casing especially under load, but there does not appear to be any scratch marks on the impeller.
Have you ridden the bike with fresh coolant, you may find the rattle is gone since the lower viscosity of the new coolant may not put the pump under as much pressure.
When you put it back together and if the rattle is still there use to screw driver trick to listen to the pump.
The bigest problem with the screwdriver trick is how to filter out the normal sounds from the abnormal sounds.