Date: 15-06-24  Time: 21:24 pm

Author Topic: Gen 2 intermittent starting.  (Read 9111 times)

slimwilly

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #25 on: 07 September 2014, 05:13:10 pm »
If you enjoy acceleration and ease of passing then there is the best mod,,,cheapest except the air box one that is


do the 16 tooth front srocket,,about £16 on ebay,,it puts it the same as the Gen 1s then,16 tooth.The rear wheel slides back a touch to take the chain slack.


If you are not doing long motorway rides etc then it is a nice nice mod, hard to explain the difference but it alters the whole characteristics of all the gears.


The speedo will read slightly faster than you are doing, but not much,1.e 5% over plus they are already 5% over so 10%is more real.


On the list of mods for this model the great Ivan puts the 16 tooth on the must do list.


and he knows best  :lol
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stevierst

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #26 on: 07 September 2014, 07:51:21 pm »
The 16t increases fuel consumption slightly though, and 105-110 miles before the light on a spirited ride.

The Ivans reflash is supposed to be the daddy of the mods, bringing the humble FZ up to R1 power throughout the rev range
« Last Edit: 07 September 2014, 07:53:20 pm by stevierst »
Stop polishing it and ride the bloody thing!!

noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #27 on: 12 September 2014, 06:32:09 pm »





Got the new battery on today and i said to my missus.....i bet it doesnt start.....right enough.....it didnt.


Same old problem but i've at least swapped out the most obvious and im happy to k ow that i have a fresh battery as of now.


It is really random.......it started on the 3rd try....turned off then restarted straight away...& i third time......then didnt start on the 4th.......waited a while.....back out....started first time.


An important thing to note is this - it isn't how many times i press the starter button......when it does it i could press the starter 100 times and it wont start.........it is how many times i switch off and back on the ignition.....then it can start at the first press of the button straight away.


So it looks like i've got a long road ahead of diagnostics :( .




I did have a bit of trouble with the ignition a while back whereby the key wouldn't turn sometimes which i cured with some graphite spray.


Also i am completely alarmed by those loose and snipped wires on the front end......it's as if someone has taken a snipper to everything.....but why......it screams bodge job.......take a look......why on earth would you do something like that & how the foc is the bike still running.


Back to work now for a while but on my next days off ill go out for a spin at least and test out the new K&N and AIS mods.....once it is running it is fine and an absolute rocket.


Then i can seriously see me putting it into a garage to diagnose as i dont do wiring....especially not spaghetti junction wiring.
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woodwizzard

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #28 on: 12 September 2014, 06:44:06 pm »
Have you followed those wires back to anything? They look like add-ons and seperate to the main wiring system, so should be able to follow them back. Might be worth trying another ignition barrel by the sounds of it.

noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #29 on: 12 September 2014, 07:43:40 pm »
Have you followed those wires back to anything? They look like add-ons and seperate to the main wiring system, so should be able to follow them back. Might be worth trying another ignition barrel by the sounds of it.


Not in great depth buddy...i know a couple are for the heated grips and ill be getting a garage to properly uninstall them at some point as they are just another thing to go wrong that i dont need...plus ive heard some bad stories about heated grips acting up.


The coax wire appears to go back to the battery and also into this thing which appears to be an inline fuse.


& i can hear an electrical click when im turning the bike over which appears to be coming from the small black box in the top right passed the battery......not sure what's in there and whether it is supposed to click anyway????
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slimwilly

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #30 on: 12 September 2014, 08:31:17 pm »
Oh dear, it sure is a twat when these things play up.


i guess if it was dodgy wiring then the fault would be all the time, even when riding,,but if you have no problem when riding then its not them.


So its the ignition,starting sequence,,thats where the problem is,,so concentrate there :\
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noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #31 on: 12 September 2014, 08:39:07 pm »
Oh dear, it sure is a twat when these things play up.


i guess if it was dodgy wiring then the fault would be all the time, even when riding,,but if you have no problem when riding then its not them.


So its the ignition,starting sequence,,thats where the problem is,,so concentrate there :\


First thing im doing next days off is going for a bloody good spin though.......whats the worst that could happen with dodgy starting :\ .... :lol


Then it looks like ill be going through to ys fault code thingy which will hopefully throw something up to look at.
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unfazed

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #32 on: 12 September 2014, 09:31:45 pm »
Noggy, have not been on here with almost a month, did not realise you were having nuisance issue.

Since it turns over it really rules out the clutch,side stand and kill switches.

Sounds like a mild corrosion issue, I would lift the tank and check the crank sensor connections.

You do not need to be an electrical genius to disconnect a plug and spray it with contact cleaner or WD40 and put it back together again.

Follow this procedure, take connector apart  check it, spray it put it back together, take it apart again and put it back together again, then and only then move on to the next connector. This fixes 75% of electrical faults I have come across on bikes.
Time consuming, slow and tedious, but often well worth the trouble.

The service manual is good as it shows where all the items are.


noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #33 on: 12 September 2014, 09:42:20 pm »
Noggy, have not been on here with almost a month, did not realise you were having nuisance issue.

Since it turns over it really rules out the clutch,side stand and kill switches.

Sounds like a mild corrosion issue, I would lift the tank and check the crank sensor connections.

You do not need to be an electrical genius to disconnect a plug and spray it with contact cleaner or WD40 and put it back together again.

Follow this procedure, take connector apart  check it, spray it put it back together, take it apart again and put it back together again, then and only then move on to the next connector. This fixes 75% of electrical faults I have come across on bikes.
Time consuming, slow and tedious, but often well worth the trouble.

The service manual is good as it shows where all the items are.


Good to have you back Unfazed 8) .....& i've seen you diagnose a fair few electrical demons on here so i'll go with that........ill try the diagnostics on the dash first and see what they come up with (if anything) & then ill attack the connectors......i was in a rush to get everything back together yesterday and wanted to try the new battery so i just sprayed ACF50 on everything but when i get more time i'll systematically open up each connector......it has been said previously so i really need to take the time to do it......plus if any others are close to becoming troublesome i might just nip them in the bud before they start.


I am confident.


Cheers!
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slimwilly

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #34 on: 12 September 2014, 10:05:58 pm »
Oh mr Noggy, i will buy a rope and come and tow you around, :lol


it would be criminal if i did not meet up with you this year :o
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noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #35 on: 12 September 2014, 10:09:41 pm »
Oh mr Noggy, i will buy a rope and come and tow you around, :lol


it would be criminal if i did not meet up with you this year :o


Ill be out again......but once i start i cant stop so that's 150 miles of fun before i put on my face of shame outside a biker caf with the bling bike struggling to start & passers by spitting on me like the piece of dirt that i am. :b
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pilgo

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #36 on: 13 September 2014, 05:52:13 pm »
Oh mr Noggy, i will buy a rope and come and tow you around, :lol


it would be criminal if i did not meet up with you this year :o


Ill be out again......but once i start i cant stop so that's 150 miles of fun before i put on my face of shame outside a biker caf with the bling bike struggling to start & passers by spitting on me like the piece of dirt that i am. :b

you told me NEVER to mention this happening outside the cafe at Llandovery, glad you have found the strength to confess it now !!  :lol
 
hope you get it sorted soon mr noggy  :thumbup

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #37 on: 13 September 2014, 07:34:19 pm »
Oh mr Noggy, i will buy a rope and come and tow you around, :lol


it would be criminal if i did not meet up with you this year :o


Ill be out again......but once i start i cant stop so that's 150 miles of fun before i put on my face of shame outside a biker caf with the bling bike struggling to start & passers by spitting on me like the piece of dirt that i am. :b

you told me NEVER to mention this happening outside the cafe at Llandovery, glad you have found the strength to confess it now !!  :lol
 
hope you get it sorted soon mr noggy  :thumbup


Ha ha.....i'm worthless mate!


It's like one of those vehicles in an american film that wont start at the most dangerous time & you think nah that'd never happen....my bike's got whatever they have......i just need to remember to stop over railway lines etc. :lol
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noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #38 on: 14 September 2014, 03:45:48 pm »

I'm gonna try the self diagnostic tool on the speedo tonight but I've got thinking about what stuff has gone on recently and I did have all  that hassle when I broke down due to the loose bolt on my rear set for the gear linkage....I since then ratcheted up a spare bolt and I'm now thinking that during my last run I had a brief issue at one of the times I stopped where the linkage was jumping about a bit and I was having a bit of trouble trying to select Neutral etc.

Now just a thought for picking your brains but.....ok I've already discounted the side stand switch and it not being in Neutral or the kill switch etc during start up because then it wouldn't turn over whatsoever...and it always turns over.... but could it be teetering on the edge of gears and causing this issue.....or would it be a straight forward it either is in Neutral or it isn't type scenario....and just not turn over?

I'm not with the bike right now but would holding in the Clutch while starting it up negate that....I cant remember now whether the bike will start if say I'm in first gear with the Clutch held in....I think it will....it's just another theory I've got to try diagnose that I could always put it in 1st gear and then hold in the Clutch....if I got half a dozen good starts then that would indicate the problem to me.... but is it a sound theory or an absolute piece of nonsense?
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noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #39 on: 14 September 2014, 06:40:53 pm »
Not sure if it's any use in your case as you don't seem to get any error codes, but just wondered whether you can run a diagnostic check to see any historic error codes? copied from the US Fazer forum:-

Codes for Gen II with explanation. Next time it acts up, get it into diagnostics mode.

1) Turn key to off
2) Turn ignition kill switch to run
3) Hold the select and reset button at the same time
4) Turn the key to run
5) Continue to hold the two buttons and count to about 10 at this point the display will show "d1"
6) Release the two buttons
7) Repress both buttons for 2 sec and the display will show d:01_____17

The 17 that I get, can be anything from 15-18. This is the throttle position reading. As you S L O W L Y roll on the throttle, the number on the dash has to roll smoothly up to between 95 and 100 at WOT

If you get any jumping or holes in the numbers the TPS is the issue and must be repaired.

Here is all of the codes that I have found as you scan thru them.

01 - Throttle position sensor signal
02 - Atmospheric pressure Displays the atmospheric
03 - Intake air pressure Displays the cylinder-#1
05 - Intake air temperature Displays the intake air temperature.
06 - Coolant temperature Displays the coolant temperature.
07 - Vehicle speed pulse 0–999 Check that the number
08 - Lean angle sensor Remove the lean angle
09 - Fuel system voltage
20 - Sidestand switch Set ON/OFF the sidestand
21 - Neutral switch Set ON/OFF the neutral
30 - Cylinder-#1 ignition coil Actuates the cylinder-#1 ignition
31 - Cylinder-#2 ignition coil Actuates the cylinder-#2 ignition
32 - Cylinder-#3 ignition coil Actuates the cylinder-#3 ignition
33 - Cylinder-#4 ignition coil Actuates the cylinder-#4 ignition
36 - Injector #1 Actuates the injector #1 five
37 - Injector #2 Actuates the injector #2 five
38 - Injector #3 Actuates the injector #3 five
39 - Injector #4 Actuates the injector #4 five
48 - Air induction system solenoid
50 - Fuel injection system relay Actuates the fuel injection
51 - Radiator fan motor relay Actuates the radiator fan
52 - Headlight relay Actuates the headlight relay
53 - Exup servo motor Actuate the servo motor turns
56 - Sub-throttle servo motor Actuate the servo motor turns
60 - EEPROM fault cylinder No
61 - Malfunction history code
62 - Malfunction history code
63 - Malfunction code reinstate

And here are the ECU error codes

11 - Cylinder identification sensor
12 - Crankshaft position sensor
13 - Intake air pressure sensor
14 - Intake air pressure sensor hose line
15 - Throttle position sensor (open or short circuit)
16 - Throttle position sensor (stuck)
17 - EXUP servo motor potention circuit
18 - EXUP servo motor (stuck)
19 - Sidestand switch (open circuit in the
20 - Intake air pressure sensor or atmospheric
21 - Coolant temperature sensor
22 - Intake air temperature sensor
23 - Atmospheric pressure sensor
24 - O2 sensor No normal signal is received from the O2 sensor.
30 - Lean angle sensor (latch up detected)
33 - Cylinder-#1 ignition coil
34 - Cylinder-#2 ignition coil
35 - Cylinder-#3 ignition coil
36 - Cylinder-#4 ignition coil
39 - Injector (open circuit)
41 - Lean angle sensor (open or short-circuit)
42 - Speed sensor No normal signals are received from the speed sensor.
43 - Fuel system voltage (monitoring voltage)
44 - Error in writing the amount of CO adjustment
46 - Vehicle system power supply
47 - Sub-throttle servo motor potention (open
48 - Monitor the operation of the sensors and
48 - Sub-throttle servo motor (lock)
50 - ECU internal malfunction (memory check error)



The check engine light comes on if you have an error code, and the code itself shows up in place of the odo.


Thanks for this Tony, top man.


I've just done the test and i get D01 16.................so according to that list above then i have the Throttle position sensor (Stuck) code...is that right?..does it sound like a likely culprit based on my symptoms?......but i'm lost as to the whole throttle thing.....as i hold in the buttons and the fault code D01 16 is displayed and then i slowly twist the throttle then it goes from this 16 all the way up to 96 and then back down to 16 as i throttle off......but i really don't know the relevance of this part?


Is this code pretty reliable or is it common to get this code with mods or for other faults to wrongly present this code?


If it is the TPS then i know where it is as i noticed it under the tank the other day but from there on i'm stumped again......i also know that above the TPS is a little revolving nut that clicks around (i accidentally knocked it a notch and then back again) anyone know what it is?


So many questions......such a small brain :)
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slimwilly

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #40 on: 15 September 2014, 06:44:13 am »
D01 16 = eat more cake :lol
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unfazed

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #41 on: 15 September 2014, 08:53:05 am »
D01 16 Throttle position sensor (Stuck) will not prevent it starting

noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #42 on: 15 September 2014, 11:01:52 am »
D01 16 Throttle position sensor (Stuck) will not prevent it starting


I think you're right, it is most likely a red herring.....i bet that code would have come up even before i was having starting issues....i will be doing all the connectors when i get some time as i need to do it slowly and methodically.


Sods law i've started up the bike about 6 times since yesterday evening and it hasn't failed to start once.
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noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #43 on: 15 September 2014, 11:12:16 am »
D01 16 Throttle position sensor (Stuck) will not prevent it starting


& i've had no throttle issues whatsoever.
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slimwilly

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #44 on: 15 September 2014, 01:06:28 pm »
Your bike knows what you are doing,,


you go out to test the start,,it starts,,,


you organise a big trip,,get all your gear on,,go out,,,it won't start  :lol


Mine was like that for a while.. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol bastard
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tony_d123

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #45 on: 15 September 2014, 01:24:43 pm »
I've just done the test and i get D01 16.................so according to that list above then i have the Throttle position sensor (Stuck) code...is that right?..does it sound like a likely culprit based on my symptoms?......but i'm lost as to the whole throttle thing.....as i hold in the buttons and the fault code D01 16 is displayed and then i slowly twist the throttle then it goes from this 16 all the way up to 96 and then back down to 16 as i throttle off......but i really don't know the relevance of this part?

Is this code pretty reliable or is it common to get this code with mods or for other faults to wrongly present this code?

If it is the TPS then i know where it is as i noticed it under the tank the other day but from there on i'm stumped again......i also know that above the TPS is a little revolving nut that clicks around (i accidentally knocked it a notch and then back again) anyone know what it is?

So many questions......such a small brain :)




Sorry Nog, I can't really help you, I just saw the codes on the US Fazer site and thought it may help you pinpoint the fault. The taped up wires look like they could from the LH handlebar switch, is that correct? The fused wire from the battery may have fed a relay for accessories such as more powerful horns or a 12v socket. You would use the horn wire to switch the relay.

noggythenog

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #46 on: 15 September 2014, 02:43:51 pm »



Thanks mate, its a handy thing to know.


& yep ive got a 12v socket under the seat plus theres the led indicators, integrated rear light, a gear shift indicator & a tom tom wire so there's a few culprits for those wires...they've always been like that so as untidy as they are im not sure they are the culprit either.


Looking forward to getting at those connectors now. 8)
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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #47 on: 15 September 2014, 07:51:11 pm »
I had a similar thing with my FZS600, every now and then it wouldn't start, but in my case wouldn't even turn over. It turned out to be the Datatool alarm immobiliser. Finally after it refused to start when I stopped at a petrol station in the middle of nowhere I took it to a dealer to get it removed. Intermittent faults are a pain!

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #48 on: 16 September 2014, 06:11:05 pm »
I had a similar thing with my FZS600, every now and then it wouldn't start, but in my case wouldn't even turn over. It turned out to be the Datatool alarm immobiliser. Finally after it refused to start when I stopped at a petrol station in the middle of nowhere I took it to a dealer to get it removed. Intermittent faults are a pain!

this !! ^
 
had exactly the same symptoms,removed the immobiliser and jobs a good one,starts first time,great peace of mind,not worrying that 'will it start' every time you turn it off. your'll get there noggy  :lol

unfazed

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Re: Gen 2 intermittent starting.
« Reply #49 on: 16 September 2014, 07:41:25 pm »
Noggy

I uploaded the 2008 FZ1 service manual to the site this morning. It will give the location of all the bits

http://foc-u.co.uk/index.php?action=downloads;cat=4