Hard starting cold or hot

[Fazerjon]

Hi, I went to start my 2003 FZS 1000 last night and she just spun up and didn't fire. Now I use the bike every day for work all weathers and she never misses a beat.
 
I left it a couple of minutes and tried again, she did eventually fire up. I then rode 40 miles home down the motorway and went to fill up ready for work again today.
 
Bearing in mind the engine was hot and fully up to temperature after the 40 mile ride, the same thing happened again. She spun over and over but wouldn't fire up.


I waited a minute and tried again, no luck. Last time and a big handful of throttle and she fired up!
Any ideas guys?
 
I put a new battery on a couple of months ago and it spins up with plenty of power, so I know the battery is fine.


I have a feeling it may be the fuel pump as it is a hot and cold start issue but if anyone else has experienced the same thing I'd be interested to know what you found.

[unfazed]

Has the Exup,, plugs and valve clearances been checked recently? Does it misfire before it starts? Do you use the choke when starting from cold?
It is also very possible you have water in the fuel which is common in an all weather bike.
One easy way of checking is to drain the float bowls before starting cold and then letting them refill by turning on the ignition wait until the pump stops ticking turn off the iginition andturn it one again, keep doing this   until the pumps ticks once or not at all when the ignition is switch on. Then try starting it.

[Fazerjon]

I did the exup valve about 6 months ago, not done valve clearances yet, I’m doing them in a couple of weeks. It doesn’t missfire when it starts and I only use half choke when starting as any more or less seems to take longer to start. I’m off Friday so will check fuel & pump.
Cheers for your advice 

[Gnasher]

Keep things simple The fact it's running fine when it does start, I'm assuming that as you didn't mention there was any running issues during the ride before filling up, are there any?  Going with the assumption the bike runs fine, you can discount, vales, fuel pump, plugs, HT leads, coils, water in the fuel, or float bowls not filling.  Any or all would seriously effect mid/high range running/riding/pulling away etc, all get worse as the revs rise.  The same would apply if the cold start plunger/s were stuck open/not returning, or idling again you mention no issues during that last ride.

Was/is there any issues with the bike once it was started, i.e. it behaved as it should once you'd got it started?

The fact it started after a few prods with the throttle wide open suggests a too rich mixture, this could also be a symptom of insufficient spark or intermittent spark.  I know you said you replaced the battery a few months ago and that you ride everyday, but at this time of year lights, and perhaps heated items grips/gloves/jacket etc get used.  Alarms also pull more especially if left outside in the cold overnight or while just at work.  If the charging system or the battery isn't performing it wont take long to lower a good battery below 12.2 volts.  As this happens e.g. failing to start on multiple prods, the cylinders are over fed with fuel e.g. rich mixture which will hamper or prevent hot starting. 

A low charge battery will not deliver enough power to provide a healthy spark fort a cold engine, even though the engine is turning over.     

Check the battery, voltage there should be a minimum of 12.6, and up to 13.2 once the engine is idling and 14v at 5k, if not you've either got a charging (unlikely these are very reliable) or a battery issue.   

Batteries can give the impression they are fine i.e. charging up, but after as little as 30mins they can start to discharge, anything less than 12.8 after 30mins is a indication of a failing battery.  During summer months when lights and accessories are less used a failing battery won't be noticed until it reaches a point where it won't hold more than 12v, that point is normally about now! 

I see loads of the above starting in Nov every year.  Check your battery first     

[unfazed]

Water mixed in the petrol will separate and settle in the bottom of the float bowls especially overnight. Been down this road many times with bikes used in all weather and more so if out in all weathers

Had it on my own 1000 which was kept outside and ridden in all weathers when my son had it. It would be slow to start when hot if left for 30 minutes or overnight. Have come across it more than once in the last few years. If bike starts quicker after draining and refilling the bowls in the morning it is a sure sign of water mixed in the fuel. Not enough to effect it running, but enough to cause slow starting. Last bike I had it happen was a Serow I bought last year and the previous owner said before I bought it that is was a bit slow to start and would take ages to start if left idle for a week. Draining the float bowl pointed me to water in the fuel as it would start immediately when refilled. Removed the tank and drained it dry after it went on reserve and refilled it with fresh fuel and never had a issue with it sense.

[Fazerjon]

Ok, battery voltage after 3 days standing is 12.7 when off so that’s healthy. I drained the fuel bowls and no water in the fuel. Pump whirred up and she fired up with no problems which is quite annoying as I still have no idea why she wouldn’t start 3 days ago. I have been experiencing a sticky ignition barrel so put electrical contact cleaner in followed by a small amount of WD40 and it’s fine now. I did check the air filter too and it’s filthy and black and the sponge is starting to come off on the inside. It’s a pipercross filter that Mike fitted about 6 years ago when he Ivanised the bike. I do clean it yearly but it’s so bad this time I’ve just ordered a new one. I’ve also cleaned the connector going into the Cdi unit and put electrical insulation grease in the contacts to protect it from the damp. I’ll update again once I’ve put the new air filter in and see if there’s any more issues. Just for other peoples information, the bike still started even with the fuel pump electrical plug disconnected!

[Gnasher]

Just for other peoples information, the bike still started even with the fuel pump electrical plug disconnected!

It will providing there's fuel in the float bowls

[Gnasher]

Ok, battery voltage after 3 days standing is 12.7 when off so that’s healthy. I drained the fuel bowls and no water in the fuel. Pump whirred up and she fired up with no problems which is quite annoying as I still have no idea why she wouldn’t start 3 days ago.

This suggests damp/water ingress somewhere in/along the ignition circuit, which has now dried out.

I did check the air filter too and it’s filthy and black and the sponge is starting to come off on the inside. It’s a pipercross filter that Mike fitted about 6 years ago when he Ivanised the bike. I do clean it yearly but it’s so bad this time I’ve just ordered a new one.

This won't help but still isn't the cause.

I’ve also cleaned the connector going into the Cdi unit and put electrical insulation grease in the contacts to protect it from the damp.

This is a high possibility

[unfazed]

I have been experiencing a sticky ignition barrel so put electrical contact cleaner in followed by a small amount of WD40 and it’s fine now.That is a classic problem with many Yamahas as many have 2 if not 3 circuits within the ignition and one circuit effects the starting. I have been using WD40 for years in Ignition barrels and never had the issue, but know many who had and again extremely common in every day use bike and more so if stored outside uncovered in all weathers. Have even seen a few freeze up due to water within just as Gnasher will most likey have seen also, WD40 does prevent it even though many do not like the idea of putting WD40 into the barrell. 

You will not see the water in the fuel as there will will be so little and well mixed. There are additives you can add to prevent the separation but I have never used any as I prefer to drain the tank. Water build up inside has been know to rot the tank from the inside out with the giveaway being paint on the lowest section of the tank.
At least it is running again, but the sticky ignition could have been the issue as it will turn over but not fire if the ignition acts up

[Fazerjon]

Well thanks for all the advice, back at work next week so fingers crossed it’s all sorted 🤞🏻

[Fazerjon]

Update! All good so far, used bike all last week in heavy rain on the motorway and no issues. After studying the ignition circuit on the wiring diagram I’m pretty sure the problem was the ignition switch all along. When I park the bike up at work or when I’m washing the bike I now put a tight fitting plastic bottle lid over the ignition barrel to stop any more water from getting in there.

[Fazerjon]

Quick update and a bit of info that may be useful if anyone else has these symptoms. The switch started playing up again last week so I started looking for a replacement. Looking at roughly £500 for a new one!!! I rang my local bike shop for a price and he said Yamaha no longer make them and his supplier cant get them anymore. He did say however, they can be stripped down and cleaned up. So I did exactly that. Bit fiddly drilling out the shear bolts that bolt the switch to the yoke, then there’s 2 more to drill out that bolt the barrel onto the switch. Once thats done you can separate the two and get to the contacts to clean them. I used contact cleaner with a light rub using a green scotch pad then put it all back together. Finally some graphite grease in the barrel and she now starts on the button every time 
Hope this helps.

[SkidT]

Thanks very much for the update.
I’m sure that will prove useful to many on here in due course. 👍

[b1k3rdude]

@fazerjon

You can buy pattern ignition switches for the FZS1000, that and several other Yamaha's use the the same igniion switch and lockset -

- https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=Yamaha+Fzs1000+Fazer%2C+Ignition+Switch%2C+Lock+Set&i=automotive&crid=GG9V7VT4NEBP&sprefix=yamaha+fzs1000+fazer+ignition+switch+lock+set+%2Cautomotive%2C307&ref=nb_sb_noss
- https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313&_nkw=FZS1000+lock+set&_sacat=0

But if you can save mony by cleaning the one on the bike, even better.

[Fazerjon]

Nice 1 thanks for the link. I’m hoping the strip and clean is now a permanent fix, I will update again if I have any more issues 👍🏻