Earnings

[Hedgetrimmer]

Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??

God, you'd hope not. But as I understand it, there is a similar sectarian divide in parts of Scotland already? Also, there has been an SNLA for some time has there not? Maybe they've had little support up to now, but something like an independence question could be enough to change things - some people are just unreasonable, and you can never predict these things. Emotions get fired up and people get carried away by it all, and sometimes, as Lew has pointed out, it only takes one strident voice to stir it all up. Let's hope it doesn't happen, but if the will for independence remains, then so will the possibility for it to turn nasty.

VNA, your faith in human nature is touching, but such trust has been proved misplaced so many countless times in history, alas.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Read my post again VNA I was modifying it when you posted , I am sure you think it cannot happen but , not all folk in Scotland are perhaps as well educated as they should be, same anywhere. All you need is a few nutters to start the ball rolling and it will be like a snow ball, thing is how do you stop it??

God, you'd hope not. But as I understand it, there is a similar sectarian divide in parts of Scotland already? Also, there has been an SNLA for some time has there not? Maybe they've had little support up to now, but something like an independence question could be enough to change things - some people are just unreasonable, and you can never predict these things. Emotions get fired up and people get carried away by it all, and sometimes, as Lew has pointed out, it only takes one strident voice to stir it all up. Let's hope it doesn't happen, but if the will for independence remains, then so will the possibility for it to turn nasty.

whooa!  Look the History of Scotland and Ireland and their respective relationships with England over the past 300 or so years is markedly different.

Nor do those in Scotland calling for Independence in Scotland feel that we are discriminated against within Scotland, or that our human rights are being violated, perhaps suffering at the hands of bigots and being denied our democratic rights.

Note that the YES! campaign, which is ongoing, is a fully inclusive campaign, and it is a campaign for social justice in Scotland.  People across Scotland, across all sections of society, irrespective of whether you are black or white, catholic or protestant, Christian, Muslim or Atheist, Scottish, English, Polish or whatever, and right across the political spectrum have come together to fight for social justice.  We recognise that in order to stop the corporate welfare state, that in order to have an equalitarian society, in order to protect our NHS from privatisation etc, then we have to become an Independent country.

If you are suggesting that we, as a peaceful and democratic,  inclusive and equalitarian campaign should shut the foc up because others, who do not believe in the democratic process, may threaten us with violence and disruption, then I think I can answer that with one word, and that word is NO!

The YES! campaign is not over, the biggest political movement that this wee country has ever witnessed in modern times carries on.  There is a general election in May you know.

[BIG MAC]

One of the best things about both the YES and NO campaigns is that by and large sectarianism was frowned up...yes there were fannies...there always will be. Cards on the table I was born to be a Scottish Catholic...I  went to a Jesuit school and hated every fecking minute of it...I then went to a local comp...had my share of rough and tumble and ended up with many friends who happen to be non Catholic..I have always been a Celtic supporter but the basis for it was to be different in a school class full of blue noses. I will have banter with either but at the end of the day if you are my friend I will do what I can to help. I guess therein is the rub Scots aren't actually as Scottish as shortbread tins or bigoted string vest wearing Eldorado drinkers either. Many Scots by virtue of their superior education system are erudite and capable analysts of their political situation and options. My opinion is that 55% got it wrong and handed the initiative back but believe me when I say there always was a plan B and turning Westminster into the Caledonian club may be it.  Middle England will rightly get the hump and it will all be because Davos Dozey Cameron couldn't be arsed to speak to the Scottish grocer...So Osbourne has told England be prepared for swingeing cuts and you could have Scots MPs voting them in if it suits their agenda..CONservatives strike again. As for Labour-a- tory  they are toothless, leaderless and clueless

[lew600fazer]

VNA. I really do admire your faith in human nature, you obviously believe passionately in your campaign. If you honestly believe that the so called loyalists are going to just stand quietly by and let the yes campaigners bulldoze there way to Scottish indepndence you must be wearing rose tinted glasses.
The Republican movement infitrated the civil rights movement in N Ireland back in the 60's the result of that has been mentioned in a previous thread as in the number of dead and injured. It also led to the deployment of over 25,000 troops on the streets along with an increase in the size of the police force making the RUC at that time the second largest police force in the UK after the London met.
Just keep it in mind , N Ireland certainly the Protestant side of it can trace its roots back to Scotland, as in Ulster Scots.

By all means campaign for what you believe in but do not be surprised if it all turns nasty.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

VNA. I really do admire your faith in human nature, you obviously believe passionately in your campaign.

This thread gets more bizarre by the post.

What is this pish?  Ideally I would be an Internationalist, I should ideally have nothing to do with creating more borders, but the reality is quite different.  The UK is going to the dogs, but we have in Scotland an opportunity to break with the corporate welfare state and the race to the bottom, which in turn can only be good for our brothers and sisters in the rest of the UK.

If you honestly believe that the so called loyalists are going to just stand quietly by and let the yes campaigners bulldoze there way to Scottish indepndence you must be wearing rose tinted glasses.

We have just been through a democratic process Lew, we almost did it, and probably would have made it home if it was not for Westminster tearing up The Edinburgh Agreement in the closing stages. 

How much trouble was there Lew?  A few hours of pissed up Loyalist Neds in George Square on the day of the result.  That was it.  Yup, not much else to report, umm nothing, nope, now't - zip.

The Republican movement infitrated the civil rights movement in N Ireland back in the 60's the result of that has been mentioned in a previous thread

It's a lot more complicated than that Lew, and as I already pointed out there is no parallel.  And have you forgotten that the paramilitaries tried to kick it all off over here in Scotland too?  But guess what they fell flat on their faces.

It also led to the deployment of over 25,000 troops on the streets along with an increase in the size of the police force making the RUC at that time the second largest police force in the UK after the London met.

Yes and if there is a little trouble on our streets it will be our Police, our Army with our support recruited from our population that round up the pissed up neds.  You know Lew 45% of the police force voted YES! too. 

By all means campaign for what you believe in but do not be surprised if it all turns nasty.

If people vote for Nigel Farage and UKIP in the upcoming General Election, don't be surprised if things turn nasty Lew.  But what do you think we should, bring an end to democracy, or set up a ruling committee to decide what bits of our country(s) process that we can decide on democratically?

[BIG MAC]

VNA Can you just shut up...I am in danger of agreeing with you and that is uncharted waters

[slimwilly]

Which Scottish ministers fooked up building Hollyrood ?


There was public uproar after the £414 million Scottish Parliament building was completed 10 times over budget and three years late.




Plus it is claimed in the press that the running costs of Scottish parliment is crippling for its people


Official accounts have revealed the continuing cost to taxpayers of running the Scottish Parliament, with the total put at £72 million last year.



The figure includes £23 million spent employing more than 500 staff at an average of £45,500 each, about 60 per cent more than the average Scottish salary. The sum does not include catering workers and those employed directly by MSPs.[/font][/font][/size]
A further £19 million was spent on administration and general running costs, with huge sums allocated for furniture, taxis for MSPs and computer equipment.[/font]
[/size]The public purse was also charged for providing Holyrood staff with help to stop smoking, Gaelic classes and agency workers on short-term contracts to aid them with their duties.
[/size]
[/size]They may be good for you but could they cut it on their own,no going back,[/color]

[lew600fazer]

VNA, 45% of the police voted yes, not very good at sums me so 55% voted no, so basically 10% the difference, so you are refusing to accept the result of a democratic election. I am ingnorant of what the Edinburgh agreement is/was you mention that the Westminster Politicians renaged on that.
The very fact that Salmond and his cronies got the voting age lowered to 16, smacks of trying to ensure a yes vote. Did he not think that if it was left at 18 he could have won a yes vote that way.

The UK is going down the pan, we have the fastest growing economy in Europe 3% growth forecast for the coming year, unless the BBC reported that wrong.
Yes there will be more government cuts next year, all is not perfect in the UK but at least we do appear to be moving in the right direction.

UKIP will do feck all in the next election, they may win a handful of seats. The only reason they are picking up seats in bye elections is over the immigration issues and anti EU sentiment. They may replace the Lib Dems who sold there soul to get into bed with the Tories.

Tried to kick off the trouble over there but it fell flat on it's face. Let me assure you there were certainly a lot of foot soldiers from Scotland in the Paramilitaries doing their training,shall we say,  some still pop over now and again for the odd walk around the countryside(fact)

I know you do not agree that civil unrest would breakout in Scotland if it looked as if the yes campaign or for that matter the no campaign was dead in the water, if both sides keep chipping away at each other and if someone organises mass rallies of protest and counter protest you will have that civil unrest. Not sure what size the police force is in Scotland but if the unrest that I forsee gathers momentum the police will not have the man power or resources to deal with it or contain it.

The RUC, depending on your stance was one of the best equipped and trained police forces in dealing with civil unrest than any in Europe, even they in the end had to ask for outside help.
I know I am doom and gloom, but having lived through what went on in N Ireland. I lost family and frieinds to the violence over there. I would hate to see a similar thing happen to a country that I have a lot of affection for(even though I do take the piss about the place now and then)
If Scotland does go it's own way can you also lobby that the spelling for Whisky is corrected as in WHISKEY. 
Good luck with your campaign but hopefully the Scottish people will continue to say NO NO NO.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Which Scottish ministers fooked up building Hollyrood ?

There was public uproar after the £414 million Scottish Parliament building was completed 10 times over budget and three years late.




Plus it is claimed in the press that the running costs of Scottish parliment is crippling for its people


Official accounts have revealed the continuing cost to taxpayers of running the Scottish Parliament, with the total put at £72 million last year.

It was Westminster MP's that focced up the Scottish Parliament.  They choose the site, they choose the building, it was their mess, we are just stuck with it.  All that was decided upon before the Scottish Administration has sat for the first time.

I agree, I said it in 1997, and I'm still saying it today - why run two parliaments.  It's time to get rid of Westminster.  Oh any idea what Westminster costs per annum to run slimwilly?

[BIG MAC]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8208590.stm
Just the £500 million....bargain

[VNA - BMW Wank]

VNA, 45% of the police voted yes, not very good at sums me so 55% voted no, so basically 10% the difference, so you are refusing to accept the result of a democratic election. I am ingnorant of what the Edinburgh agreement is/was you mention that the Westminster Politicians renaged on that.
The very fact that Salmond and his cronies got the voting age lowered to 16, smacks of trying to ensure a yes vote. Did he not think that if it was left at 18 he could have won a yes vote that way.

You seem to be ignorant of Scottish matters in general Lew, but still you wish to lecture us Scots. 
A couple of points Lew.  Edinburgh Agreement - try google.  See my post 65.  Under the Edinburgh Agreement it was a straight YES/No vote.  YES = Independence NO = status quo.  Same as per an election you cannot introduce new policies, never mind change the whole angle of the vote in the closing weeks of the referendum/election.   And most certainly once the postal ballot opens you cannot change your position.  The VOW broke the rules of the Edinburgh Agreement and also had those at the polls voting in a different referendum than those who votes in the postal ballot.  There is also the small matter that Better Together sampled the postal ballot weeks before the poll, hence they knew they were losing and introduced the VOW - I believe the investigation is ongoing. 

16 years olds voting?   Well I say No Taxation Without Representation!  We intend to make this the norm in Scotland. 

UKIP will do feck all in the next election,

Let hopes so.  Though the bad side of me wishes em luck.  Every vote for UKIP = one vote for Scottish Independence. 

I know you do not agree that civil unrest would breakout in Scotland if it looked as if the yes campaign or for that matter the no campaign was dead in the water, if both sides keep chipping away at each other and if someone organises mass rallies of protest and counter protest you will have that civil unrest. Not sure what size the police force is in Scotland but if the unrest that I forsee gathers momentum the police will not have the man power or resources to deal with it or contain it.

I am at a total loss as to what you are on about Lew.  The YES! campaign is an inclusive peaceful democratic campaign.

The RUC, depending on your stance was one of the best equipped and trained police forces in dealing with civil unrest than any in Europe, even they in the end had to ask for outside help.

Whom unfortunately recruited from one side of the community, therefore were seen to represent one side of the community and were rejected by the other half of the community.  In effect, that means that the RUC policed by force, in Scotland we police by consent.

I know I am doom and gloom, but having lived through what went on in N Ireland. I lost family and frieinds to the violence over there. I would hate to see a similar thing happen to a country that I have a lot of affection for(even though I do take the piss about the place now and then)

I am very sorry to hear that Lew.   But none of the ingredients that could lead to a war in Scotland are present.
 

If Scotland does go it's own way can you also lobby that the spelling for Whisky is corrected as in WHISKEY.   
Good luck with your campaign but hopefully the Scottish people will continue to say NO NO NO.

It's Whisky Lew - Whisky.  Whisky and nothing else, I refuse to use that stupid demeaning nonsensical marketing name Scotch.

Recent polls have suggested that a lot of those who voted NO are reconsidering, and they can also see now that the Smith Commission Report gives us nothing like the powers that were suggested under The Vow - we have been tricked. 

The polls are also suggesting 40 plus seats for the SNP at Westminster (it's very early days though) come May.  If Labour collapses (lets see who the new leader is), SNP gets 40 plus seats at Westminster and then does the impossible again at Holyrood, well one can argue that this is not only looking possible but it would perhaps also entitle the Scottish Government to declare Scotland Independent - no referendum required.
It's not really a matter of IF Lew, it's when, and I think it's sooner rather than later.

[lew600fazer]

Were did you dig that one up from the RUC only recruited from the Protestant side of the community, wrong. You could have mentioned that the IRA told any Catholic joining the RUC would be targeted.There were Catholics in the RUC and the police reserve.
With you everything wrong in Scotland is or has been caused by the English , N Irish and the Welsh as they make up westminster.
How did westminster cause the overrun costs for the new Scottish parliment. Fecking hell next you will be blaming the rest of the UK for the weather and midges up there.
Maybe time I bailed out of this debate now, I was not aware I was lecturing anyone, just joining in a discussion.

[slimwilly]

No, i don't,, the discussion is about the Scottish parlemantarians who want to be hero's , who will disappear if the country goes tits up..


Its strange how you diss this countrys economics, lots of folks think things are ticking along nicely.


If you have any ideas of changing the way a country is run then forget it,,this is the way a democrecy works, its what the country voted for,,look around , lots of people with their heads up...
I can vouch for the building industry, its booming out there, the feel good factor has been back for a bout a year now.

[BIG MAC]

The building industry booming? I must be in the wrong building industry,,Ohh sorry 'The London Building Industry'

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Were did you dig that one up from the RUC only recruited from the Protestant side of the community, wrong. You could have mentioned that the IRA told any Catholic joining the RUC would be targeted.There were Catholics in the RUC and the police reserve.

Indeed Lew absolutely correct, but the reality on the ground was that the RUC was overwhelmingly Protestant and many in the Nationalist communities refused to accept the RUC.

Hopefully gradually that is now changing.

How did westminster cause the overrun costs for the new Scottish parliment.

We wanted our Parliament on Calton Hill, and many wanted it in The Old Royal High School.  We already had a building that we could convert into our parliament.  But the Scottish Office (a function of Westminster) decided it would be down in Holyrood and they commissioned that umm, mad thing, that high maintenance building which now houses our parliament.  This was all decided before the first Scottish Administration was elected.

You have to realise the whole devolution thing was about stopping independence.  Giving us a silly looking expensive building was part of the game of making sure that devolution was not to be entirely a success.  Scots would argue for years if it was really a good idea or not - that was the plan.  As it turned out, despite the ridiculous building (which we seem to be begining to accept) and is spiralling costs, well I think given a little time - we never looked back.  And it wasn't long before Scots talked of Government as opposed to Administration.

But yes the cost of the building and the continuing maintenance of this weird Spanish building is blamed on those whom had no say in it.

With you everything wrong in Scotland is or has been caused by the English , N Irish and the Welsh as they make up westminster.

No it's the stupidity of my fellow Scots that peeves me.

Its strange how you diss this countrys economics, lots of folks think things are ticking along nicely.

 

I mean where do I start.  Oh wait a minute we've already covered all of that 

If you have any ideas of changing the way a country is run then forget it,,this is the way a democrecy works, its what the country voted for,,look around , lots of people with their heads up...

Slimwilly, yup it's democracy.  And if Scotland demands Independence, then that is our democratic right. 

[BIG MAC]

And with the announcement today that Alex Salmond is going to contest the Gordon seat and if successful will be a Westminster MP...Cameron will struggle to avoid debating with him...schweeet..

[VNA - BMW Wank]

And with the announcement today that Alex Salmond is going to contest the Gordon seat and if successful will be a Westminster MP...Cameron will struggle to avoid debating with him...schweeet..

Or how about Boris Johnston, leader of the opposition, debating with the Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Sir Alex Salmond

Whatever - bring it on.

" The  dream  shall  never  die " Alex Salmond

[slimwilly]

Maybe the biggest constructors, Wimpey etc are not up too full speed but look around, the amount of vans, the comon call around here is "i'm too busy".


The phone never stops,,not my tale,, but a common one

[BIG MAC]

I work for a main contractor..it's very south east centric and phase sizes are much smaller. The reason the man and van brigade is busy is because the big boys can pick em up and drop em. sometimes owing them a shedload of money. Risk management of the most cynical type.

[midden]

Stop following/financing sport in such a big way, especially televised. Put tv cameras in Ambulances and operating theatres, give them prime time tv slots, buy extortionate medical team merchandise and maybe medical team wages will rise to ridiculous amounts 

[slimwilly]

I work for a main contractor..it's very south east centric and phase sizes are much smaller. The reason the man and van brigade is busy is because the big boys can pick em up and drop em. sometimes owing them a shedload of money. Risk management of the most cynical type.

You and that VNA are terrible doom and gloom merchants, would hate to work with you two   

[BIG MAC]

I work for a main contractor..it's very south east centric and phase sizes are much smaller. The reason the man and van brigade is busy is because the big boys can pick em up and drop em. sometimes owing them a shedload of money. Risk management of the most cynical type.

You and that VNA are terrible doom and gloom merchants, would hate to work with you two   

I wasn't intentionally being gloomy just relating the way it is...I am lucky for now I have a job in the South East but if you look around at all the short hours contracts etc the high employment figs etc are a sham...feel good feeling pre election clap trap from the present Govt.

I am amused by the possibilities which may arise at the next election or even in the next parliament..a large Scottish Bloc in the house could see all sorts of sheannigans

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Big Mac Can you just shut up...I am in danger of agreeing with you and that is uncharted waters