Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
General => General => Topic started by: mtread on 29 January 2020, 11:43:14 pm
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All the signs were there.
Pity as the new V4s and 650 twins looked good.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51303905 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51303905)
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It's so sad but the prices were crazy when compared to the competition,they shouldn't be trying to produce a modern Commando,Atlas etc and asking almost double of a comparable Jap model regarding power,economy,weight,ease of maintenance,etc,recipe for disaster. :(
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A non-biker would be forgiven for thinking that there'd been over a century of continuous, successful production reading that story.
It mentions 'financial difficulties' in 2008, but no details of the former decline/s and collapse/s under previous owners :rolleyes
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Just goes to prove you can't trade on just a famous name. You have to produce bikes people want and can afford not expensive white elephants and race bikes for the nostalgic few.
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Maybe this explains why John McGuiness has moved over to a Kawasaki team?
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Just goes to prove you can't trade on just a famous name. You have to produce bikes people want
Which pretty much sums up what went wrong first time around in the 1960's.
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Hardly a shock, has anyone actually seen one on the road?
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Hardly a shock, has anyone actually seen one on the road?
No, but I've seen one in a workshop. Seized gearbox.
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The trouble when you hand build bikes. However good they are, you can't keep the price down. Look at Brough. 60K each and sold in single figures. Compare with Triumph. Bloor took on all the best of Japanese production ideas, and they sell in zillions.
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Yes but he learned from the other times triumph went to the wall, gave us decent bikes we wanted to ride and could afford buy & and run.
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I'm not surprised, I am surprised they've lasted this long. Old bikes, over priced, delivery and build issues, yes they'll appeal to the Norton enthusiast market but that isn't going to give you long term market.
Triumph on the other hand, most of their bike looks nothing like their classic stuff, competitively priced, so much bigger market, if they just sold the retro bikes like Norton they'd go the same way.
Norton learnt absolutely nothing from their original demise, sad but true.
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The new Norton 650 scramblers are/were going to start at 10k. Competition for the Ducatis and Street Scrambler. Pity if they don't make the shops.
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I'd never seen one of these before last Sunday. Hope he's stockpiled some spare parts :lol .
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It looks like there's more to this story.
Some odd deals have disappeared, and so have people's pensions....
https://www.morebikes.co.uk/news/67560/seven-questions-raised-about-the-norton-motorcyles-collapse/?utm_campaign=%28BA%29%20MoreBikes%20Newsletter%20-%2031JAN2020&utm_source=emailCampaign&utm_content=&utm_medium=email (https://www.morebikes.co.uk/news/67560/seven-questions-raised-about-the-norton-motorcyles-collapse/?utm_campaign=%28BA%29%20MoreBikes%20Newsletter%20-%2031JAN2020&utm_source=emailCampaign&utm_content=&utm_medium=email)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal#img-1 (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal#img-1)
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yup, its starting to look like a long con. That leaves a bitter taste, especially as most of us really wanted Norton to fly again. . :( :( it did seem a little odd that they were developing and marketing the v4 and the smaller bikes me and Dave saw at the show, whilst the 'Classic' Commando still had a reputation for reliability to claw back. It would have made much more sense to sort those bikes first; perhaps even to do what Honda did after the disastrous vf750, over engineer new vfr versions and sell them at a loss to get their reputation back. It seems Garner had the funds, albeit gained in what is turning out to be some very shady dealings. sad day all round really.
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btw theres talk the real atlas engine never actually ran, and was a 3d printed piece of plastic. Hence we couldn't get near it during the show. If thats true, thats even worse than what garner did to spondon...
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btw theres talk the real atlas engine never actually ran, and was a 3d printed piece of plastic. Hence we couldn't get near it during the show. If thats true, thats even worse than what garner did to spondon...
I thought I remember seeing a cut-through engine in a display case at the show. Or perhaps that was just the V4.
Wonder if they'll be at the London show week after next? :rolleyes
Picked up some brochures last time. Collector's items? :lol
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Was just reading that John Mcguiness is asking if anyone sees Garner tell him to get in touch as he owes him £60,000 for last years TT ! :eek
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Was just reading that John Mcguiness is asking if anyone sees Garner tell him to get in touch as he owes him £60,000 for last years TT ! :eek
From what I've been reading that's just a drop in the ocean.
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Garner's other 2 companies one being Priest House Hotel in Castle Donington is also in administration, seems there's a theme here. He and his companies have had millions poured into them over the years and Norton fails because they can't pay 300k tax bill, perhaps the same for the others.
I smell a huge art here :stop like they didn't know they've got to pay the tax! I'd also take a bet they've not paid the employers pension contributions either, another Phillip Green stunt. Garners more than likely put Norton in the name of his aunt or such like, in which case he owes nothing and pops up somewhere else.
According to reports last year Norton had £6.7 million in sales on which they made pre tax profit £33,701................. really They pay over inflated prices for services, by companies they or their mates/family own and get nice little kick backs all round. The HMRC has a lot to answer for how can a business run like that without it ringing alarm bells.
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My guess is the £300k is mostly VAT. You sell a bike, charge the customer 20% VAT, then stick it in your pocket.
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you wouldn't people could still run long firms in this day and age. but its looking very much like that was the case. I got the 3d plastic printed engine nod from a tuner who has worked with them, thankfully for him far enough back in the past that he got paid. Give Nortons their due though, when they 'hole a piston' they dont foc about... :lol
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Think they need to run a compression test :rolleyes
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Just seen this on twitter in reply to MCN.
by my maths,AT LEAST £33M income that we know of by your approx stats & figures) & 625 bikes made? Obvs that figure doesn’t include all business outgoings,still an average of £54k per bike?
£54,000 a bike?
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Just watched a U/tube video and they've took millions in deposits from the U.K,U.S.A.,and Japan and even invited them to some swank do recently as prospective buyers!! talk about taking the piss. :foc
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it get worse. Of the few people who had got their v4s, many went back to the factory for warranty issues on paint etc. Norton stripped the customers bikes down to the frame and engine, then used the parts to assemble other bikes to con more deposits etc. when the shit hit the fan and the owners went back to the factory to pick up the bikes they had left with minor warranty issues, all they got to take home was this...
Garner ran 6 aston martins amongst his fleet of cars. If he doesnt do some serious time for fraud/ theft on a huge scale, id really like to know why that is.
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Don’t forget the three Range Rovers and the Jag F Type.
More here……….
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/12/inquiry-government-funding-norton-motorcycles?CMP=share_btn_tw (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/12/inquiry-government-funding-norton-motorcycles?CMP=share_btn_tw)
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Absolutely shocking.
Not the first time a sharp salesman has duped everybody, and not the last.
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Damm :'( and I had bought a season ticket to watch Norton racing round the Circuit of Wales :'(
How the hell did he get away with this for so long and stripping customers bikes in for warranty.
Money was still being taken as deposits only a week before going into Administration.
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Joe Craig,Ray Petty,Bill Lacey,Steve Lancefield,etc,etc,must be spinning in their graves,to think that this jumped up wanker has brought such a mark to its knees is unbelievable :(
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that they must. I think thats the real sting in the tail...most brit bikers wanted them too succeed, and I really thought they had. It looks more and more like the firm had so much investment from the government, pension pots etc, they could have come good. but that was never really Mr 'Im a petrolhead biker myself' garners plan. Absolutely gutting really.
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Joe Craig,Ray Petty,Bill Lacey,Steve Lancefield,etc,etc,must be spinning in their graves,to think that this jumped up wanker has brought such a mark to its knees is unbelievable :(
Don’t forget Francis Beart, famous for his Norton development. Having watched a U tube clip on the subject, the figures involved are obscene. Other than the £300k owed to HMRC, there’s also £14mill to UK pensioners,£5mill in deposits from US customers,£16mill deposits from UK customers, £20 mill deposits from Japanese customers, £5mill owed to Chinese development companies, £4 mill in UK grants, and a £750k loan to UK banks. And no doubt that’s just for starters. :eek :eek
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how can shit like this even get that far in this day and age? I cant see how he aint gonna be banged up for a long stretch, it really is mind boggling. gawd I wanted one of the 961 commandos when they came out,; im guessing they might be pretty cheap secondhand soon, if you want to risk the reliability issues :rolleyes
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He's actually claiming to be a 'victim' of pension fraudsters :(
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Joe Craig,Ray Petty,Bill Lacey,Steve Lancefield,etc,etc,must be spinning in their graves,to think that this jumped up wanker has brought such a mark to its knees is unbelievable :(
Different circumstances I know, but to be fair the marque as most people knew it fell to its knees and collapsed about 50 years ago :\
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A lot of people were looking a Norton through rose tinted specs, and got took advantage of.
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how can shit like this even get that far in this day and age?
Because there's too many others with their noises in the troff, keep your eye on HS2 there's another massive scam!
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It’s interesting that there seemed to be a queue of Tory MPs lining up to associate themselves with this ‘great British brand’.
Stephen Barclay the BREXIT secretary stated that Norton was an example of a “great business” that would thrive when Britain leaves the EU.
Stuart Garner the boss at Norton claimed he had no fears about BREXIT and said it would bring “huge opportunity” “It's what the country voted for so let's get on with it,"
Norton went bust the very same week the UK left the EU.
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Joe Craig,Ray Petty,Bill Lacey,Steve Lancefield,etc,etc,must be spinning in their graves,to think that this jumped up wanker has brought such a mark to its knees is unbelievable :(
Don’t forget Francis Beart, famous for his Norton development. Having watched a U tube clip on the subject, the figures involved are obscene. Other than the £300k owed to HMRC, there’s also £14mill to UK pensioners,£5mill in deposits from US customers,£16mill deposits from UK customers, £20 mill deposits from Japanese customers, £5mill owed to Chinese development companies, £4 mill in UK grants, and a £750k loan to UK banks. And no doubt that’s just for starters. :eek :eek
How could I forget the great Francis Beart with his trade mark pale green masterpieces,he even used to take metal out of the ends of engine bolts and hollow out non load bearing ones,all in the pursuit of light weight and when the 350 Manx was no longer competitive he turned his magic to the 350 Aermacchis which were works of art. :thumbup
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It’s interesting that there seemed to be a queue of Tory MPs lining up to associate themselves with this ‘great British brand’.
Stephen Barclay the BREXIT secretary stated that Norton was an example of a “great business” that would thrive when Britain leaves the EU.
Stuart Garner the boss at Norton claimed he had no fears about BREXIT and said it would bring “huge opportunity” “It's what the country voted for so let's get on with it,"
Norton went bust the very same week the UK left the EU.
:z :z :z :z :z :z :z
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Fucks sake mate. could the mods not make the b word automatically delete the whole post please? pretty please?
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I'll go along with that!
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And so say all of us. :eek
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I wondered how long it would be :z
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Fucks sake mate. could the mods not make the b word automatically delete the whole post please? pretty please?
What I’m saying is the Tory government poured cash into this ‘most British’ of businesses. Were they audited? Why did they not know about the pension fund concerns? Meanwhile, Norton thanked them for the cash by praising BREXIT, and the Tories had the media push the story. Great British buiness looking forward to BREXIT - blah blah blah. Maybe they didn’t care – maybe all they wanted was their pro BREXIT story.
Who knows – the whole thing sucks – just like BREXIT itself. ;)
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Yes, yes of course :) . Have a lie down and try to get some rest, things might seem better in the morning :)
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Yup tax payers money down the drain.Private investors ripped off by a company with full government confidence.I don't think things will look better for them any time soon. :\
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As I said keep your eye on HS2!
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Fucks sake mate. could the mods not make the b word automatically delete the whole post please? pretty please?
What I’m saying is the Tory government poured cash into this ‘most British’ of businesses. Were they audited? Why did they not know about the pension fund concerns? Meanwhile, Norton thanked them for the cash by praising BREXIT, and the Tories had the media push the story. Great British buiness looking forward to BREXIT - blah blah blah. Maybe they didn’t care – maybe all they wanted was their pro BREXIT story.
Who knows – the whole thing sucks – just like BREXIT itself. ;)
:z :z :z :z :z :z :z
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this is very very much worth a read...https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton-was-it-a-fraud-from-the-start (https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton-was-it-a-fraud-from-the-start)
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Such a shame that the name Spondon, so well respected in the past, has been dragged through the dirt. If the original retiring partner hadn't been so desperate for cash, then no doubt this financial tragedy wouldn't have happened.
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Read that earlier today :rolleyes
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Blimey. More of a crook than even I thought
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unreal aint it?. I always thought Norton had been bought by a multi millionaire businessman, not some bloke who ponsed 90 grand off his dad and chanced the rest to build a long con :(
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What I don't get, is why didn't he just play it straight? Decent bikes, albeit niche, at a premium price. Plenty of orders from the US.
If CCM can make a go of it. Why do the con man?
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Scared of losing a few quid doing things the right way,just a typical silverspoon tosser. :finger :foc
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Greed :finger
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Questions need to be asked about the grants and loans they received. Were audits carried out, if not, why not, and if they were, why did they not pick up that the business was bent. Laws need to be tightened on Pensions investment rules.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/12/inquiry-government-funding-norton-motorcycles (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/12/inquiry-government-funding-norton-motorcycles)
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this is very very much worth a read...https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton-was-it-a-fraud-from-the-start (https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton-was-it-a-fraud-from-the-start)
Jesus. Appears the whole thing sucked right from the start.
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What I don't get, is why didn't he just play it straight? Decent bikes, albeit niche, at a premium price. Plenty of orders from the US.
If CCM can make a go of it. Why do the con man?
it really is a crying shame innit. as you say, with all that going for them, if he had been straight, Norton would have worked.
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Meanwhile Triumph has announced this week that they are moving the remainder of their production out of the UK.Triumph is no longer a British manufactuerer.
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Meanwhile Triumph has announced this week that they are moving the remainder of their production out of the UK.Triumph is no longer a British manufactuerer.
One of the first casualties of........ yep you guessed it the B word, there'll be a good few more...........
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Yup more and more manufactuering has and will continue to leave the UK.
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Meanwhile Triumph has announced this week that they are moving the remainder of their production out of the UK.Triumph is no longer a British manufactuerer.
One of the first casualties of........ yep you guessed it the B word, there'll be a good few more...........
Here's the story from MCN this week. Not a single mention of Brexit.
Of the 65,000 bikes Triumph produce 90% are already manufactured in Thailand.
They will still be making around 4500 bikes at Hinckley and making significant investment in R&D here, but the last of the volume models is moving to the factory abroad. It means around 2000 less units per year made in the UK.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/triumph-production-thailand/ (https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/triumph-production-thailand/)
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One of the first casualties of........ yep you guessed it the B word, there'll be a good few more...........
No, you 'guessed' it was the the B word. And guessed wrong.
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Just gazing into the crystal ball again
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Just gazing into the crystal ball again
Every single bit of 'bad news' is going to be leaped upon and blamed on Brexit now, regardless of whether it's got anything to do with it or not.
90% of Triumph production was already in Thailand prior to Brexit, so was that a consequence of EU membership? :rolleyes
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Does the failure of Norton remind anyone else of Mel Brooks' The Producers?
The company was meant to fail - like 'Springtime for Hitler' - and when it didn't the money had to be accounted for.
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No, you 'guessed' it was the the B word. And guessed wrong.
Nope, the UK manufacture will slow and then stop, development only even that could well go.
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One of the first casualties of........ yep you guessed it the B word, there'll be a good few more...........
No, you 'guessed' it was the the B word. And guessed wrong.
Nope, the UK manufacture will slow and then stop, development only even that could well go.
And that's all directly a result of Brexit?.
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And that's all directly a result of Brexit?.
The complete withdrawal of manufacture from the UK yes, as I think you'll find Thailand already has a deal with the EU, so imports from their are like for like or pretty close and labour a fraction of the cost of UK. If we don't get a deal anything from the UK will cost more, some industrial bodies are quoting 20% or more. Within the next few years much of our manufacturing will disappear if we don't get a good deal with the EU.
The likes of Mini (BMW), Toyota, Nissan, whats left of Vaxuhall just vans now I think will go, Honda in Swindon we already know about. I know people from there and regardless of what's said officially, it is Brexit, they aren't willing to make the future investment in the UK.
Wait till the financial sector takes it's hit if we don't get a deal!
Anyway enough of the B word, we'll all find out very shortly. :rolleyes
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Norton tried to do what lots of small volume UK motorcycle manufactures before them had done tried to up the volume without really considering the cash flow. They then started taking payments and using them to keep it all looking rosey. It reflects very poorly on the CEO (on the fiddle?)
UK Manufacturing is booming: Rolls Royce have just opened another composites centre and are expanding Derby. Siemens are opening a huge train plant in Goole. [size=78%]https://www.cityam.com/uk-pmi-manufacturing-grows-at-fastest-rate-in-10-months/ (https://www.cityam.com/uk-pmi-manufacturing-grows-at-fastest-rate-in-10-months/)[/size] . The risk now is corona affecting the supply chain not brexit. thank goodness Corbyn never got in, the outlook would be grim.
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And that's all directly a result of Brexit?.
The complete withdrawal of manufacture from the UK yes, as I think you'll find Thailand already has a deal with the EU, so imports from their are like for like or pretty close and labour a fraction of the cost of UK.
So the further 2000 bikes that are going to be manufactured in Thailand now are simply following the approx 60,000/90% that have already been made there prior to Brexit?.
Being in the EU hardly preserved their home manufacture did it? :rolleyes
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I know people from there and regardless of what's said officially, it is Brexit, they aren't willing to make the future investment in the UK.
I know people who claim we never went to the moon. I prefer to rely on the official version of events :)
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The complete withdrawal of manufacture from the UK yes, as I think you'll find Thailand already has a deal with the EU, so imports from their are like for like or pretty close and labour a fraction of the cost of UK. If we don't get a deal anything from the UK will cost more, some industrial bodies are quoting 20% or more. Within the next few years much of our manufacturing will disappear if we don't get a good deal with the EU.
The likes of Mini (BMW), Toyota, Nissan, whats left of Vaxuhall just vans now I think will go, Honda in Swindon we already know about. I know people from there and regardless of what's said officially, it is Brexit, they aren't willing to make the future investment in the UK.
Wait till the financial sector takes it's hit if we don't get a deal!
Anyway enough of the B word, we'll all find out very shortly.
Indeed, we do about almost 50% of our trade with the EU. Any economist will tell you that your immediate neighbours will always be your most important trade partners. The EU gives us access to 27 nations, with the 27 governments, around 27 languages, cultures etc, but all operating as one open market under a common set of rules. It really is quite amazing.
The EU also gives, or gave us over 50 comprehensive trade agreements across the globe.
Now it looks as we might be about to throw that all away. The current government is clear that it favours a hard BREXIT, which will make trade more difficult with the EU and the other countries that we access across the globe through those EU stuck deals that we were major negotiators in.
Fours years in, and no clear result insight, few manufactures are prepared to take the considerable risk of investing in the UK, and those that are home grown or have already invested in the UK are, one by one, leaving.
The leading BREXITEERS are comfortable with this. Both Johnson and Rees-Mogg are admirers of the leading BREXIT economist Professor Minford. Minford is quite clear, that whilst he favours a hard BREXIT, it will not only destroy UK automotive manufacturing but UK manufacturing as a whole. Not much will be left.
It will be in your interests to do it, just as in the same way we ran down the coal and steel industries
Professor Minford
Remember this is what you voted for. :o
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Any economist will tell you that your immediate neighbours will always be your most important trade partners.
Like England and Scotland :)
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Like England and Scotland
Of course.
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and Ireland and Wales :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol not!!
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and Ireland and Wales :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol not!!
Isn't that where we import all this foccing rain from 😅
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this is very very much worth a read...https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton-was-it-a-fraud-from-the-start (https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton-was-it-a-fraud-from-the-start)
Part 2
https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton-was-it-a-fraud-from-the-start-part-two (https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton-was-it-a-fraud-from-the-start-part-two)
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What a slippery foccer that Garner was. It appears he sold the rights to the 961 engine to Chinese firm Jinlang, just days before Norton went under. They'll be able to put that engine in their own bikes from now on it would seem. A slight bit of good news I suppose if you've got a 961, as engine spares should be a possibility. Jinlang apparently have close ties with Zongshen, who were due to produce the 650 twin engine for the Combat and Nomad models.
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Norton Motorcycles SOLD to Indian giant TVS for £16millionhttps://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/norton-motorcycles/ (https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/norton-motorcycles/)
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https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/norton-motorcycles/?fbclid=IwAR2plHbpO4tTW8o2-ecVVDLl_0iMX-rYXQXqVhnLG4c5sNKUEzM4TLL8ieM (https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/norton-motorcycles/?fbclid=IwAR2plHbpO4tTW8o2-ecVVDLl_0iMX-rYXQXqVhnLG4c5sNKUEzM4TLL8ieM)