I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6loI'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike. Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off. Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)
Quote from: Dudeofrude on 23 June 2019, 08:50:15 amI'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6loI'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike. Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off. Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)I don't think we're arguing Dude, but it's how we're hearing/interpreting what is said in the video - my take on what was said is slightly different to yours in a couple of key areas - all down to our differing views on the context of the video. My view is that he's using this to demonstrate that when encountering an unexpected issue/obstruction mid-corner, it is possible to trail-brake safely when leaned over, when done properly, to help avoid a crash and hopefully the following comments explain how context can create different "understandings" - must admit this is why I prefer to do classes where you have the opportunity to discuss comments and techniques with the instructors, to make sure the context is clear.At the beginning, Chris chooses to go into the hairpin at 30mph - it's not the fastest he can go in, or the fastest he can go around the corner using his normal approach - it's just an arbitrary speed to demonstrate the point and he does the typical type of trail braking that happens with an average rider on the road, to see how easy it is to get it wrong (very easy, it seems) - he doesn't follow the "brake before you turn" approach to get the right speed for the corner, he just deliberately brakes hard mid corner at that speed (visible by the way the forks dip before the front tyre breaks away) - and he crashes, or would do if the bike didn't have outriggers.When he tries to trail-brake "properly", he deliberately goes into the corner much faster and by finding the traction limits by pushing the bike/tyres to their limits, with the benefit of outriggers, he ultimately finds out he can get round the corner at the 70mph speed, but only after a lot of front wheel tucks, which on a normal bike would all have been crashes.Nowhere does he say that 30 mph is the fastest he can get round the corner using his normal riding technique, nor does he say he couldn't go even faster using trail braking (he probably could) - the speeds were chosen to demonstrate the different outcomes between "normal" rider trail-braking and the outcome after you've had the opportunity to practice it a lot on a bike you can't crash.At the end of the video he quite clearly says that unless you are smooth on the brakes and know exactly what you are doing (and basically are an "expert) "stay away from it, you do not want to brake in the middle of a turn". He also says "don't try this at home" - he had the benefit of the outriggers to save him and the bike, and no oncoming traffic.The key point I took away from this video was that Chris was saying that IF you encounter a problem during a turn, you'd be surprised how much you CAN brake while leaned over, if you brake gently and skilfully and it CAN be a useful skill to master, but under normal circumstances I take on board his final warning "don't try this at home".After watching that video, I'm tempted to find a school which has outrigger bikes to try and practice the technique, but on normal roads, with debris, changing road surfaces and grip levels, rain etc, I'd keep it as an emergency tool/skill.
Sorry VNA, but that's completely the opposite to everything I've been taught at racing schools numerous times over the last 30 years, what is currently taught, and what has been written in riding and guides for many years. Trust me, the Ron Hallam Racing School, California Superbike School and the other all tell you NOT to brake while leaned over into a corner. Get your braking done before you turn-in, while the bike is basically upright. The very last thing you want to do is suddenly load or unload the brakes and suspension while leaned over - the changes in loads upset the suspension and change the stresses on the tyres whilst leaned over and basically cause people to fall off.
If trail braking is using the rear brake mid corner.
I agree with the Dude. I think it’s part of normal cornering. Also, if you come off the brake before the turn, the suspension unloads before loading up as you enter the turn - so less grip and composure. By trail braking you keep the suspension loaded coming gradually off the brake as you tip the bike in with the bars, thus maintaining plenty of grip on the front wheel.
What I am saying is that if you are braking hard for a turn, you come of the brake and throw the bike on it’s side, as you imitate the turn the front suspension is unloading just when it is the last thing you want it to do.
That's why you should get your braking done *before* the turn.That's a track technique, not something to be used on the road.
Why would I not want to maximise my grip and control?
This thread is driving me round the bend
Aye, those “virgin” bots are called chicken strips. Because of you got them on your tyre, your too chicken to lean over more 😂
Quote from: Steve3351 on 14 June 2019, 10:57:51 pmI think countersteering is sort of instinctive...It is, in the sense that you do it without thinking. It's only when you start thinking about it that it tends to go wrong! If you need to take rapid avoiding action, your brain says "pull the bars in the direction you want to go" instead of "push on the bar in the direction you want to go".Quotewhats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...Trail braking (ie using the frong brake in a turn) is not a good idea. Throttling off or using the rear brake "pulls" the bike backwards, because the force is being applied to the rear wheel behind the centre of gravity.Using the front brake "pushes" the bike backwards (in front of the centre of gravity), increasing the load on the front tyre contact patch and making the forks want to dive, meaning the steering will get heavy and you could risk a front-wheel slide.Here's a link to an excellent document that gives lots of useful information about riding... http://www.fema-online.eu/uploads/documents/vehicle%20aspects/Full%20Control_low%20res.pdf
I think countersteering is sort of instinctive...
whats confusing is that one camp insists that TRAIL BRAKING is the way to go, while another claims engine braking and off-throttle is better...
Why don't we all just pick a stretch of twisties, all use our own techniques, then see who finishes 1st and who bins it - problem solved......until we then are start arguing the toss about " yeah, but you've got got XYZ tyres and a steering damper" or "yeah but your front sprocket is +1 so you can use 2nd gear etc." or "yeah but you're a fat fuck so have more grip"Anyone up for a laugh.....600's and slow thous only
JANEY MAC...!!!! clearly i can use engine braking / rear / front brake to lose all my speed before i start to turn in, and POOTLE around on a nicely balanced throttle (BOLT UPRIGHT and reading MCN) and then accelerate GENTLY out of the curve...BUT..... i'm driving a HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle, not a VINTAGE TRACTOR, on a dry country road, so i will continue to approach at a BRISK pace, changing down and trail braking MODERATELY to steady the ship into the bend, and pull out HARD...!!!! ....