Headlight Switch

[b1k3rdude]

Every bulb that gives light from the same place will have the same beam pattern when use in a given reflector, no matter how the light itself is generated.

yes and no, because a HID bulb is that much brighter parts of the beam pattern that would have illuminated with next to no light via a halogen bulb will now been lit. This is what causes the scatter and subsequent blinding of oncoming motorists.

But going back to your post, my above statement is mute because no HID bulb I have even seen or used has the arc in the exactly the right location for either lo or hi beam. fitting HIDs to a H4 bulb based bike is counter productive and not recommended. Only bikes with fixed bulbs, eg H1/H7 or projector benefit from HID (albeit with some scatter as mentioned above)

For the fazer LED spots are the way to go.

[PaulSmith]

Sorry but I am (not surprisingly) going to have to disagree with you.

1) If your beam pattern has scatter, then changing the bulb will not change that. If that scatter is outside legal limits, then the reflector will not be certified. The Fazer has reflectors which are certified. You may draw your own conclusions, but I have not had any drivers react as if I had blinded them unless I hit them with full beam.

2) It is simple enough to look up the specifications for a H4 (or any other standard) bulb. Those specifications include the location and distribution of the light source. If that is not where the light is coming from, then it is not a H4 bulb. I have personally never seen a bulb that claimed to be a H4 but wasn't, though I believe when people were first experimenting with HID conversions over 20 years ago, there were HID discharge units that were fitted to H4 mounts. These would not have had the correct location for the light source and are probably what you are thinking of. Note that despite the H4 mounts, they were not H4 bulbs and could not be marketed or sold as such.

3) "fitting HIDs to a H4 bulb based bike is counter productive and not recommended". Says who and why? My personal experience is that fitting H4 bulbs (specifically H4-3 to retain full high low beam control) has prooved to be the single most effective safety improvement I have made to any bike, ever. And since it can cost as little as £25 to try it, it is cheaper then buying a dayglo jacket or Sam Brown belt but has a much greater impact on your visibility.

4) "For the fazer LED spots are the way to go." Says who and why? Which LED spots and how much are they? Can they be removed easily? Can you pop a traditional tungsten or halogen H4 bulb back in if your MOT examiner is fussy? What are the beam patterns and are they certified for the fazer?

[b1k3rdude]

• If your beam pattern has scatter, then changing the bulb will not change that.
• My personal experience is that fitting H4 bulbs (specifically H4-3 to retain full high low beam control) has proved to be the single most effective safety improvement I have made to any bike, ever. And since it can cost as little as £25 to try it, it is cheaper then buying a dayglo jacket or Sam Brown belt but has a much greater impact on your visibility.
• And since it can cost as little as £25 to try it, it is cheaper then buying a dayglo jacket or Sam Brown belt.
• Which LED spots and how much are they? a) Can they be removed easily? b) Can you pop a traditional tungsten or halogen H4 bulb back in if your MOT examiner is fussy? c) What are the beam patterns and d) are they certified for the fazer?

• The reflector is only certified and designed for the intensity and brightness of a halogen bulb, go putting a HID bulb in there that's 3x brighter will then highlight the limitations of the reflector - hence the scatter. This is technically an MOT failure and will potentially attract the attn. of the plod who could order a rectification notice.
• These telescopic bulbs are the worst of the bunch, the vast majority of telescopic hi/lo HID bulbs are constructed so poorly that the HI/LO positions are way out and the bulb itself wobbles all over the place.
• You can buy said jacket for £8-12 - http://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/motorcycle_parts/content_cat/708/%28all;product_price;ASC;0-0;all%29/page_0/max_20
• The are a number of them on the market now, but the one I have were bought from http://www.bikevis.com, a) Yes, b) no they are sealed units and they have pass the last two MOT's as they are wired as Aux lights with a separate switch, c) mine are spots and I have them pointing down to enhance the DIP beam and d) they require no certification as aux/side lights, however its a good idea not to blind oncoming drivers with them which is the same as ANY spotlights.

[PaulSmith]

I am not sure I am following you. Are you saying that the Fazer reflector has scatter such that it WILL fail an MOT if fitted with HID bulbs, or are you saying that some reflectors have scatter problems that might fail an MOT and the Fazer reflector may or may not be one of them? As I said before, my experience is that I have not seen any evidence of drivers being blinded by my Fazer unless I have full beams on, so I must assume that the Fazer reflector is not so afflicted, but I am in Ireland where we do not have MOT testers or busy plod that put the letter of the law above safety so I can not speak to the legal aspects. However I can tell you that my wiring and reflector can still accept a traditional Halogen H4 bulb that can be fitted in 2 or 3 minutes, and I carry one one as a spare anyway, and that I have never had problems in Ireland, the UK or France.

I am sure there are some poorly constructed HID's out there, with bulbs that wobble and HI/LO out of align. Again, I can only talk about my experience of using the cheapest, nastiest Chinese knock-offs I could find on ebay which have all done a perfectly good job. Probably not a fair comparison but my mate on his GT1600 with multi-hundred euro spots has had nothing but problems with them not turning on, not turning off, falling off and pointing in random directions. In fairness, most of his problems have to do with the mountings and BMW quality control and should not be taken as an indictment on spots in general.

I am afraid that the link you gave to your spots does not work very well. Do you have another one you can use?

[b1k3rdude]

• Are you saying that the Fazer reflector has scatter such that it WILL fail an MOT if fitted with HID bulbs,
• I am afraid that the link you gave to your spots does not work very well. Do you have another one you can use?

• Yes, all reflectors based headlights in both bikes and cars.
• http://www.bikevis.com, but if you hunt around you might be able to find these elsewhere

Here are some pics of the spots on my fazer and my bandit -

Fazer:



Bandit 600 (w/projector based headlight)

Just the HID low beam -



just the LED spots -



HID + LEDs -



What drivers see, but despite this I still get idiots who don't see me - (the camera is incorrectly showing the glare, its not that bad to the naked eye)

[sadlonelygit]

So much easier to fit 4300k hid without having those deeley boppers bouncing around at night.
Fitting hid is c&u issue, rather than MOT.
my local garage is pretty anal about things but are happy with my hids as long as the beam is correct.

[PaulSmith]

Your spots are nice, but don't seem to add that much extra light. Maybe they are better in real life.

Again projectors are also nice, but on the Fazer, it becomes an expensive option since it already has perfectly good reflectors. Speaking of which,  I am going to have to ask you to be a bit more specific when you say "Yes, all reflectors based headlights in both bikes and cars". Are you saying that ALL reflectors will fail an MOT if HIDs are fitted? What are you baseing this on as it does not seem to be the universal experiance.   

[b1k3rdude]

• Yes, all reflectors based headlights in both bikes and cars". Are you saying that ALL reflectors will fail an MOT if HIDs are fitted?
• What are you basing this on as it does not seem to be the universal experience.

• Yes, as I mentioned in the post on the 8th "The reflector is only certified and designed for the intensity and brightness of a halogen bulb"  - a HID bulb is just so bright it literally "hi-lights" the limitations of the reflector and lens.
• You look at ANY oncoming vehicle with HIDs fitted and as said vehicle passes, you will get a sparkle/scatter and that is with you as the observer off to one side - not even directly in the path of the dipped beam. It dosen't help that most of the owners of said vehicles are fitting HID kit with 6k colour bulbs (bluish) OEM fitted HIDS kits are 4300k (which is what is fitted to my bandit). Fyi, any forward facing light that is not white is also an MOT fail.
• And lastly the DfT detective states HID can only be fitted to vehicles with self levelling suspension, last time I looked only the Honda goldwing and 'some' BMW bikes have this. but this is going off the topic of this thread.

Yes a lot of MOT places will pass a vehicle with a HID fitted,  but technically they should not be.  But as a lot of people want to fit HID kits (and understand why and agree with that) is to have a bike where the dipped beam is a single beam type either reflector or projector. And yes I get scatter on my bandit 1200 with its H7/reflector based setup, but as the reflector is design for a single beam bulb it has a lot less scatter than the H4 dual beam reflector of the fazer.

Your spots are nice, but don't seem to add that much extra light. Maybe they are better in real life.

I can turn the main light off on a pitch black country lane, because they are vastly superior to the std halogens on the fazer by a long way. The combined light output from those two spots is the same a single HID bulb, that's 1800 lumens.

Going back your comment about running HID in lo beam for years, the only way I could get a clean cut-off was to have a fixed HID bulb with a large baffle, eg -


And regarding fitting projection units to the foxeye fazer 600/1000 (see below),  and to a boxeye FZS600, as done here.

[PaulSmith]

I am sorry that you do not think HID's are the way to go and I respect your opinion for that, and I am pleased that you like your spots and your projectors, which I no intention of knocking, but I would appreciate it if you stopped spreading false and misleading information about HIDs. This is not an either/or debate.   

I am not an MOT expert as we don't have them in Ireland, but 5 minutes on google and I was able to find this:

MOT beam patterns:
Do you have any evidence to suggest that the beam pattern from a FAZER reflector will fail an MOT if fitted with a HID bulb or not?  A yes or no answer would be appreciated, preferably with supporting evidence. Saying that some reflectors are not good enough and that since the Fazer has a reflector it might not be good enough just doesn't cut it.

The beam patterns required are described http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_180.htm and they make no reference to sparkle or scatter. I dont think scatter means what you seem to think it means. A reflector is designed so that light coming from a particular point is reflected to produce the desired pattern. Any light outside that pattern is called 'scatter' and is a result of imperfections in production and errors and compromises in the design. A single source reflector is simpler to design then a dual source, just as a simple pattern is easier to design then a complex one, but a well designed and manufactured reflector will have far less scatter then a poorly designed on. How the light is generated DOES NOT AFFECT THE PATTERN OR THE SCATTER. A brighter light will make things more noticable - but given that the whole point of the excercise is to be noticed, I am struggling to see your objections.

MOT Colour:

Fyi, any forward facing light that is not white is also an MOT fail.

Wrong. Think of indicators, they face forward don't they?

The motorcycle requirements http://www.motuk.co.uk/mcmanual_120.htm specify that the light source FOR THE DIPPED BEAM be white or yellow. The term 'white' is not strictly defined in the document so is left to the testers discretion. White light is generally considered by scientists to be between 2.5k and 10k with the daylight being between 5 and 6.5k Kelvin.

Yes, many OEM HID bulbs are 4.3K, but many others are 5 or 6K. I am not recommending or defending bulbs over 6k in the same way you are not recommending spots that point backwards.

Self leveling suspension is not specifically mentioned for motobikes, but for all vehicles, IF fitted, it needs to work.

Vehicles equipped with High Intensity Discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self levelling system.Where such systems are fitted, they must work; however, it is accepted that it may not be possible to readily determine the functioning of self levelling systems. In such cases, the benefit of the doubt must be given.

Since self-leveling suspension is not defined for motorcycles, again tester discretion is involved. 

Any oncoming vehicles with incorrectly adjusted headlights will blind other drivers regardless of the type of bulbs fitted. Any vehicle which has had it headlight system changed is more likely to be incorrectly adjusted then one that hasn't and the bigger the change they greater the likelyhood. Any such vehicle would fail an MOT if tested. So again I don't get your point or why you think this is relevant to HIDs where just the bulb is changed.

At the end of the day, if you are unlucky enough to fail an MOT for having HIDs fitted, or have any other problem with them at all, it takes less then five minutes to unplug them and replace one bub with the traditional H4 bulb you carry under your seat. No tools required. 

The advantages of having HID over traditional Halogen bulbs are:

• Three time more light for a third less power - 35W HID @ 3300 lumns vs. 55W Halogen @ 1100 lumens
• Very low cost of conversion - cheapest two bulbs kits from £25 ~1hour to fit.
• Very easy to roll back to original ~ 5 minutes to get you going ~20minutes to restore original.

The disadvantages of HID:

• You might fail an MOT if you are very unlucky.

[b1k3rdude]

• - Do you have any evidence to suggest that the beam pattern from a FAZER reflector will fail an MOT if fitted with a HID bulb or not?, preferably with supporting evidence.
• - A brighter light will make things more noticeable - but given that the whole point of the excercise is to be noticed.
• - Fyi, any forward facing light that is not white is also an MOT fail. Wrong. Think of indicators, they face forward don't they?
• - White light is generally considered by scientists to be between 2.5k and 10k with the daylight being between 5 and 6.5k Kelvin.
• - Self leveling suspension is not specifically mentioned for motobikes, but since self-leveling suspension is not defined for motorcycles, again tester discretion is involved. 
• - At the end of the day, if you are unlucky enough to fail an MOT, it takes less then five minutes to unplug them and replace one bub with the traditional H4 bulb you carry under your seat. No tools required. 

• my local MOT testing station and I would have to take some before and after pics at night to show you how the scatter can effect oncoming and well as traffic to the side.
• And there is the logic, the reflector wasnt designed to cater for bulbs that are 300% brighter. Most motorcycle reflector based headlights have scatter, which is good when using stock bulbs but bad with HID because the resultant scatter is so much brights it dazzles oncoming and adjacent traffic. Again i would have to take pics to hammer home the point/
• I'm referring to forward facing headlights not warning lights - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/4/made
• You and I both know anything above 5k is the beginning of the blue end of the spectrum as far as human sight goes.
• Fair enough.
• Agreed.

Just to nip some things in the bud, I don't have a problem with HID's. My issues are, those telescopic kits  - the vast majority are cheap Chinese items that should be avoided like the plague because the baffles are so poorly designed that they add to the scatter problem. I have yet to see a kit that has correct amount of baffling (I made my own ages ago and the plan was to get a local enginering shop to make a laser cut version, but I never got around to it) And the colour, anything above 5k is asking to be pulled by the old bill and/or fail an MOT.

[unfazed]

Mickvp, Do your lights come after starting or are they on all the time?

All EU bike lights come on when you start the bike but the American ones are on all the time.

The design of the charging system on the Fazers means that it actually easier on the generator and rectifier/regulator if the lights are on all the time.

When the battery is fully charged the regulator short circuits the generator output. This creates more heat in the rectifier/regulator and generator.
When the lights are off the battery charges slightly quicker and then the regulator shorts the output sooner and for longer than it would if the lights are on.

Moral of the story is:  theoretically  your generator and rectifier/regulator should last longer by leaving the lights on all the time.

[mickvp]

I think the sidelights come on with ignition, but dipped beam come on with the engine itself. they are definately NOT on all the time though 

[unfazed]

I think the sidelights come on with ignition, but dipped beam come on with the engine itself. they are definately NOT on all the time though 

Same as mine which means it is a EU bike

[PaulSmith]

...

• my local MOT testing station and I would have to take some before and after pics at night to show you how the scatter can effect oncoming and well as traffic to the side.
• And there is the logic, the reflector wasnt designed to cater for bulbs that are 300% brighter. Most motorcycle reflector based headlights have scatter, which is good when using stock bulbs but bad with HID because the resultant scatter is so much brights it dazzles oncoming and adjacent traffic. Again i would have to take pics to hammer home the point/
• I'm referring to forward facing headlights not warning lights - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/4/made
• You and I both know anything above 5k is the beginning of the blue end of the spectrum as far as human sight goes.
• Fair enough.
• Agreed.

Just to nip some things in the bud, I don't have a problem with HID's. My issues are, those telescopic kits  - the vast majority are cheap Chinese items that should be avoided like the plague because the baffles are so poorly designed that they add to the scatter problem. I have yet to see a kit that has correct amount of baffling (I made my own ages ago and the plan was to get a local enginering shop to make a laser cut version, but I never got around to it) And the colour, anything above 5k is asking to be pulled by the old bill and/or fail an MOT.

1 & 2) Can I assume that means you do not have any evidence at this time of there being a problem with the Fazers reflector?
3) Fair enough but this just highlights the difference between what you said and what you meant.
4) While true, it is worth noting that daylight on a cloudy day is about 6.5K, and 6K HIDs only look blueish if there is a 'whiter' light to compare against. My personal preference is for 5K bulbs as having the most 'daylight' like light, but I stress that is just my opinion. Most people I know who go for the blue lights (8K and higher) are not getting them because they think they are brighter (they aren't) but because they like the colour. When we were young, we would have been pulled for showing a blue light, but modern cops don't seem to be so fussed about it.

Re Scatter, I think you are rather missing the point. The MOT tests the DIPPED beam pattern to ensure it does not negativly affect oncoming road users. If you fail the pattern test, you fail the MOT. In this we are both agreed. However, the MOT does not test the intensity of the light, actually suggesting that the vehicle be moved closer to the target if the lights aren't bright enough. This means that if you have a scatter that directs light somewhere it shouldn't go, you will fail the pattern test, and since having a brigher (or dimmer) bulb doesn't change the pattern (or the scatter), it wont change the result of the test.

Finally, high beam is not tested because high beam is not used when there is oncoming traffic. This makes baffles and scatter irrelevant where high beam is concerned.  That leaves the only possible issue with telescopic bulbs the risk that they do not return to the correct centre point when switching from high beam back to dipped. This is controlled be a spring and there is a risk that this spring could fail. Since a HID bulb is expected to last ten times longer then a Halogen one, this is not a risk that should be ignored when using cheaper bulbs. However, it is still less likely then having the filiment fail in a halogen bulb.