Braided Brake Line failure?

[darrsi]

Has anyone ever had braided brake lines fail or degrade on them?


I've ordered some new front lines anyway, but was just curious if anyone had any experience of this at all?

[markbubble]

iv never had the lines fail but some of the fittings(banjo bolts) snap just looking at them! iv just bought a hel rear kit and the lines and fittings were great just be carefull with any stainless banjos etc!

[darrsi]

I went for the Venhill one's in the end, with the chrome rather than stainless banjo's. The lines have a lifetime guarantee so i won't need to change them again!


The reason i asked is 'cos i still have a pulsing issue on my font brakes and seeing as i've literally changed everything else apart from the brake lines i was wondering if they are known to fail with age? They were on the bike when i bought it so i know they're at least 4 years old.
Because they were braided i just took it for granted that they would be okay.


They're Goodridge lines at the moment, but they look really tatty anyway so it's not really a problem changing them, and i'm getting black one's rather than clear as well.

[John Silva]

I've never heard of braided lines failing but anythings possible.

Could the pulsing be the ABS cutting in 

Or a slightly warped disc.

[AdieR]

I wouldn't have thought failing brake lines would induce pulsing (or at least I can't see how); brake feel and lever travel yes, but pulsing?

What have you replaced so far (and therefore ruled out)?

[darrsi]

I have 3 sets of discs, changed the forks, calipers, tried different pads, new wheel bearings and head bearings.


Only things not changed are the actual wheel, which i'm positive is fine, and then it was suggested to me today about possible line failure.


Doesn't really leave much else does it? 


Oh, and a new tyre yesterday. 

[Pat]

Not the lines themselves, but I know of failures of anodised ali end fittings, scary thing is they rot internally so there's no sign of any degradation until they fail.

Moral of the story is always use stainless or plated steel fittings.

[darrsi]

As i said before i don't mind changing them as the one's on there now look a bit grotty anyway, and it'll be something else to cross off my list.

If they don't work then i'm kind of stumped. 


I ordered these:

  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Venhill-brake-line-kit-Yam-FZS-600-Fazer-97-03-race-design-stainless-braided-/200745837708?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D1933384389975270989%26pid%3D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26#ht_5459wt_1037
 

[darrsi]

***UPDATE***

Well, apparently braided brake lines can fail.
I've just had the Venhill front lines put on, and it appears my judder/pulsing has disappeared, ending a very long period of torment, time and cost.
It's the only thing that wasn't changed because i honestly didn't think they would be the cause of the problem.
There was nothing visible to look at, and the brakes themselves weren't leaking or anything!
I'll take it out again tomorrow to make sure it's not short-lived but from the way it felt earlier it's all looking very hopeful.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just been out again on the bike for a longer run, and the dreaded judder has gone completely!!!
I can't even begin to make you understand what a relief it is to finally get this problem sorted out.
I was on the verge of ordering another pair of discs again, and i now know that they wouldn't have helped.
You live and learn i s'pose.......

[unfazed]

I have seen brake hoses fail on cars, especially some old Fords, including my v4 Capri, scary shite trying to get to the Ford garage 20 miles away with only a handbrake, but that turned out to be a faulty hose which were the subject of a recall.

I have seen a number of anodised alloy  fittings fail due to salt corrosion and a rubber hose on an 1100 beemer break up internally, but it happened gradually and caused the rear brake to bind

[kebab19]

Yes, I had a set of braided and one of the lines failed.

[unfazed]

Did it fail at the joint to the banjo fitting?

[darrsi]

Yes, I had a set of braided and one of the lines failed.

Crikey, you dug that one up! 

[tommyardin]

I posted a couple of days ago about the brakes on my MR2 Spider.
I had a problem with the front drivers side brake binding. The first inclination I had of it starting was that the car seemed to throb and the front of the car seemed to nod when driving at high speed (That's high speed for a MR2 not an FZS 600) I replaced all four discs, four sets of pads and both front calipers and everything was operating as I would expect whilst up on the jacks. But in reality the same thing was happening on the road drumming/throbbing noise and car still nodding or ducking very slightly at speed.


A quick internet search said that those symptoms can be caused by flexi brake lines disintegrating internally, apparently what can happen is a lamination or flap of rubber can come adrift, but when the brake is applied the force of the master cylinder can push the flap of rubber out of the way but when the lever or brake is released the flap of rubber can be drawn back down by the returning fluid and effectively create a valve that hinders the return of the fluid to the master cylinder causing the  brake to bind a little and run hot, as the disc expands any high spots on the disc then contact the pads causing the throbbing/ drumming noise and causing the front of the car to slightly nod or duck, just a little but it was so annoying. The other problem is that brakes that are hot are not so effective and can certainly increase your stopping distance.
I have purchased a set of stainless steel braided hoses for the MR2, the same make (Cobra) as the ones I fitted to my FZS just recently from


[/size]trikersues On eBay

[/size][size=0.86em][/size][/size]

[size=0.86em]




Yamaha FZS600 FAZER Cobra Performance braided SS F&R brake line kit 1998-2003
( 371036798347 )  about £65-00 inc delivery














Good Luck sorting your brakes out. I hope this is useful and that I'm not sending you off on a wild goose chase.
[/size]I have yet to fit the braides to the MR2 Spider.
[/size]Just a thought.
[/size]Tommy[/c][/size][/font][/size]

[tommyardin]

sorry about all the [[ size []font shit in the last post, I'm a newbe in here and to be honest hav'nt a clue what I'm doing as yet.
Tommy

[darrsi]

Yes, I had a set of braided and one of the lines failed.

Crikey, you dug that one up! 

Oh, i just noticed it wasn't kebab19, it was unfazed who reincarnated this post, sorry fella.


The only reason i discovered it was the braided lines that had let me down was because it was the ONLY thing left on the front end of the bike that i hadn't changed over time as i simply didn't suspect them to be the problem. 

[Deefer666]

Standard rubber brake lines don't generally fail, it can happen but more likely is that they become soft and you lose braking performance. Pulsing through the lever although normally indicates a fucked disc can be the sidewalls of the rubber lines starting to give and although difficult to explain its a different sensation of pulsing that a warped disc would give.

I have had a set of braided lines let go on me, they where fitted by a previous owner of the bike that I owned at the time and must have been twisted to get them to fit, this caused the outer braiding to split and the inner pipe to pop out like a hernia and burst. This is why I now only use the braided lines and the ends swivel to stop the twisting of the lines under installation.

[darrsi]

When I bought my bike it was in what I can only describe as an "abused" condition, which resulted in me spending quite a few quid getting it up to a decent standard.
The pulsing problem I had baffled me though, but in hindsight it was all a good learning curve, albeit very irritating.
The fella who owned it before me clearly never looked after the bike, and more than likely used it as a toy, but I did get it for an appropriate price.
Alarm bells starting ringing when I changed the oil and managed to pull FOUR litres of old nastiness out of it. 

Makes me wonder if the brake cable had actually taken a hit at some time before I bought it causing an internal weak spot, as you say similar to a hernia, rather than just naturally breaking down?
The horrible thing was no matter what mechanic I let have a go on the bike they would always say "warped disc" straight away but I just knew it wasn't that because I had already bought a new set and it was still the same.
That's why now when I hear people mention warped discs I try and point out it's a very expensive habit to fix, and other areas should be investigated as well before splashing out on a new set, because it's a term used rather too loosely from my own personal experience.

[Adam2201]

Standard rubber brake lines don't generally fail, it can happen but more likely is that they become soft and you lose braking performance. Pulsing through the lever although normally indicates a fucked disc can be the sidewalls of the rubber lines starting to give and although difficult to explain its a different sensation of pulsing that a warped disc would give.

I have had a set of braided lines let go on me, they where fitted by a previous owner of the bike that I owned at the time and must have been twisted to get them to fit, this caused the outer braiding to split and the inner pipe to pop out like a hernia and burst. This is why I now only use the braided lines and the ends swivel to stop the twisting of the lines under installation.

Hi Deefer, how different is the feel between deteriorated lines and warped discs?  I've been getting the chattering/pulsing lever since I recently changed my pads (to EBC).  It's usually most noticeable the more pressure I apply, and backing off the brake relieves it.  The pistons moved freely when I changed the pads it and all the bolts were torqued down properly.  I changed the brake fluid this week (looked like it was long overdue) but I'm still getting the same pulsing.  There doesn't seem to be too much play in the headstock bearings from what I can tell (did the same thing I do with pushbikes, trying to move the fork backwards and forwards with the wheel off the ground).


It's hard to describe the feel, but it feels almost like the pads are chattering out of the caliper.  I've read through a few posts on here stating that new lines made a difference, and I am planning to do put some HEL ones on at some stage using the forum discount, but how would easy is it to tell if the disc is warped without a dial gauge?  I gave them a good clean last night and the front wheel spins freely with no apparent binding.  I measured the thickness when I changed the pads and the disc itself was within spec, though I will check it again.  The lines themselves look to be original though I can't see any bulging or cracking at all.  I am planning to try cleaning the floating disc bobbins at some point as well.

[darrsi]

Standard rubber brake lines don't generally fail, it can happen but more likely is that they become soft and you lose braking performance. Pulsing through the lever although normally indicates a fucked disc can be the sidewalls of the rubber lines starting to give and although difficult to explain its a different sensation of pulsing that a warped disc would give.

I have had a set of braided lines let go on me, they where fitted by a previous owner of the bike that I owned at the time and must have been twisted to get them to fit, this caused the outer braiding to split and the inner pipe to pop out like a hernia and burst. This is why I now only use the braided lines and the ends swivel to stop the twisting of the lines under installation.

Hi Deefer, how different is the feel between deteriorated lines and warped discs?  I've been getting the chattering/pulsing lever since I recently changed my pads (to EBC).  It's usually most noticeable the more pressure I apply, and backing off the brake relieves it.  The pistons moved freely when I changed the pads it and all the bolts were torqued down properly.  I changed the brake fluid this week (looked like it was long overdue) but I'm still getting the same pulsing.  There doesn't seem to be too much play in the headstock bearings from what I can tell (did the same thing I do with pushbikes, trying to move the fork backwards and forwards with the wheel off the ground).


It's hard to describe the feel, but it feels almost like the pads are chattering out of the caliper.  I've read through a few posts on here stating that new lines made a difference, and I am planning to do put some HEL ones on at some stage using the forum discount, but how would easy is it to tell if the disc is warped without a dial gauge?  I gave them a good clean last night and the front wheel spins freely with no apparent binding.  I measured the thickness when I changed the pads and the disc itself was within spec, though I will check it again.  The lines themselves look to be original though I can't see any bulging or cracking at all.  I am planning to try cleaning the floating disc bobbins at some point as well.

If you are planning to change the lines anyway then make that your first job, because it's a damn site cheaper than replacing discs unnecessarily!

[Deefer666]

Standard rubber brake lines don't generally fail, it can happen but more likely is that they become soft and you lose braking performance. Pulsing through the lever although normally indicates a fucked disc can be the sidewalls of the rubber lines starting to give and although difficult to explain its a different sensation of pulsing that a warped disc would give.

I have had a set of braided lines let go on me, they where fitted by a previous owner of the bike that I owned at the time and must have been twisted to get them to fit, this caused the outer braiding to split and the inner pipe to pop out like a hernia and burst. This is why I now only use the braided lines and the ends swivel to stop the twisting of the lines under installation.

Hi Deefer, how different is the feel between deteriorated lines and warped discs?  I've been getting the chattering/pulsing lever since I recently changed my pads (to EBC).  It's usually most noticeable the more pressure I apply, and backing off the brake relieves it.  The pistons moved freely when I changed the pads it and all the bolts were torqued down properly.  I changed the brake fluid this week (looked like it was long overdue) but I'm still getting the same pulsing.  There doesn't seem to be too much play in the headstock bearings from what I can tell (did the same thing I do with pushbikes, trying to move the fork backwards and forwards with the wheel off the ground).


It's hard to describe the feel, but it feels almost like the pads are chattering out of the caliper.  I've read through a few posts on here stating that new lines made a difference, and I am planning to do put some HEL ones on at some stage using the forum discount, but how would easy is it to tell if the disc is warped without a dial gauge?  I gave them a good clean last night and the front wheel spins freely with no apparent binding.  I measured the thickness when I changed the pads and the disc itself was within spec, though I will check it again.  The lines themselves look to be original though I can't see any bulging or cracking at all.  I am planning to try cleaning the floating disc bobbins at some point as well.

If you are planning to change the lines anyway then make that your first job, because it's a damn site cheaper than replacing discs unnecessarily!

Its very difficult to describe... the brakes dont feel as sharp, you have more lever travel for effectively is less grip at the caliper end. Most people never realise how much their lines have degraded unless they ride another bike as the degradation is so gradual.

I personally never use or recommend Hel or Goodridge brake lines but that's personal preference.... I normally stick to Venhill or more recently I have started to use a German TUV brand called JM and I find these are superb although not readily available outside of the trade.

The pulsing that you feel on knackered lines is more of a grabbing at the disc rather than a pulsing from the lever, again its difficult to describe but once you have experience it you will recognise it. The other thing of course to check is that the pad retention pin is in good condition and has not got grooves worn in it. This means the pad cannot smoothly travel along the pin and will grip the pad at an angle instead of square on.... this too will give a pulsing feel.

[darrsi]

It was Goodridge that I had the problem with, and I swapped them for Venhill ones.
Been fine ever since (touch wood). 

[Deefer666]

It would be unprofessional of me to give an opinion either way about a product or company, all I tend to do is say which companies I personally wouldn't use. 

[Adam2201]

Cheers both.  Will take the pads out tonight and have a good look at the disc surface / pads/ retaining pins and clean everything up.  Otherwise will try lines then discs. Because the juddering started right after changing the pads it's leading me to think it's related, but then the braking power with the new pads is so much stronger so it could be showing up a problem that was already existing somewhere else..

[darrsi]

It would be unprofessional of me to give an opinion either way about a product or company, all I tend to do is say which companies I personally wouldn't use.