Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => Fazer 1000/FZ1 corner => Topic started by: NitramA on 19 October 2019, 05:54:29 pm
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I tried to put up with the ongoing cold start problems I’ve posted about before with the view that maybe it’s normal behaviour.
However, even if I left it idling for a couple of minutes it would still bog down really badly when I tried to drive off.
As we live off a busy junction it was getting dangerous trying to merge with traffic when the bike would just lose power when I let the clutch out and put the engine under some load.
When I did manage to coax it into moving It would be OK after a quarter of a mile or so.
From then on it pulls ok and idles with no issues.
So, I’ve decided that there is still something wrong with the carbs.
This time i decided that if I’ve got to whip them out again I also want to fit Ivan’s kit.
So The carbs are off the bike but before I fit Ivan’s kit I wondered if someone could offer advice on what I should look for in the cold start circuit.
All the plungers are moving and from the outside everything seems ok.
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I have found the 1000 to be a cold creature and needs a few minutes to warm up before riding off, otherwise it will keep bogging down until it does warm up.
My method is full choke start it up and let it run on the choke until the revs drop, then choke off and away.
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My experience with cold stating is first turn on the ignition and give the pump time to prime. I noticed if you just turn on and fire straight away it would be difficult to start and bog down. May be I just have a slow priming pump, but it works for me and I use about half choke.
After I had my bike Ivanised I found the bike more difficult to start at first. I now find the bike a bit more temperamental and may need a few goes to start.
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Thanks for the feedback guys.
I find that I use full choke to start but the revs never really increase to a fast tickover like I’m sure they used too.
If I don’t back off the choke almost immediately it will die, so I have to hold it on the throttle until it will tick over.
I then leave it for a couple of minutes before trying to move off.
I also let the pump stop clicking so assume it’s fully primed.
I see the choke mechanism can be removed/replaced but at £80 a carb I’d rather not f**k them by fiddling.
I think I’m going to have to have a look though!
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What's your air filter like?
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Brand new about 200 miles ago.
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Has the problem only come to light since you changed the AIR filter?Out of curiosity what make is the air filter?
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After I had my bike Ivanised I found the bike more difficult to start at first. I now find the bike a bit more temperamental and may need a few goes to start.
Same here, nothing to bad, just the start and then i have to let it warm up, then runs like rocket :D
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gen ones are getting old, and like any old carbed bike, its realistic to expect to up both preventative and emergency maintenance mate. I wouldn't fit the Ivans until youve solved the problem, otherwise its just more blind alleyways looking for the answer.
If you take your carbs out and thoroughly clean everything (including every tiny hole in emulsion tubes etc) not only may you solve it, but it will make it far easier the second time around to get the carbs in and out for the Ivans, as you will have a better idea of the steps involved.
Im slowly working on my xjr13; have replaced the stock inlets for 36y unrestricted jobbies, cleaned carbs along with checking float heights and balance, 4degree ignition advancer and 17t gearbox sprocket (stock is 18), but do everything one step at a time then try the bike for a few days before moving on to the next job(in my case its the AIS).
The good thing about the fazer is its pretty much engineering from the ark, so you will be able to sort it mate :) mine starts better with the Ivans but I have to let the pump prime fully, and im running slightly richer than ivans instructions.
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I couldn’t agree more about taking one step at a time.
This is the second time I’ve taken the carbs off and the very reason I didn’t install Ivan’s kit then was that I didn’t want to confuse myself with multiple problems.
Second time round the carbs almost came out on their own!
Last time I cleaned out the jets and there was a marked improvement in the way it went.
I was just left with the cold start issue.
Looking at YouTube, the Haynes manual and posts on this forum, I think I’ve not properly cleaned some muck out from somewhere.
The way everything is interconnected leads me to believe it’s still gummed up which gives odd symptoms that may be nothing to do with the choke.
Looking at them now, all choke plungers move freely and I can see,them opening up the galleries in the carb body.
If I don’t find anything concrete in there Ivan will have to wait.
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What have you set the tick over speed to?
It sounds like pilot circuit is not doing its job properly.
What are the pilot screws set to?
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As an update I thought I’d take another look at the jets.
Everything seemed ok until I got to #3 where the needle jet (according to Pats photo) or the starter jet (according to the Haynes manual) was definitely more restricted to my needle jet cleaner poker thingy.
Slight pressure opened it up the same as #1 & #2.
#4 needle jet is much more blocked and whilst I can see through it there’s no way I could get the tool through without being in danger of applying too much pressure. I’ve left it in carb cleaner to soak for an hour or two.
I should say the the tool is a motorcycle specific jet cleaner and I’m using the smallest poker.
Being paranoid I’m now worried I’ve opened up 1,2,3 and 4 is the only one that’s the correct size! :eek
The Pilot jet and all the emulsion tubes are squeaky clean.
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nitrama i had a similar issue and it turned out to be one of the fuel inlet o rings... I'd changed them for new when I Ivanised, but had nicked one. That cylinder was running cold as it was overfuelling, and didn't fire until the bike hit 6k. I actually bought 50 of em as Mike gave me a heads up to sourcing them...if you want half a dozen so its summat else you can knock out of the equation, pm me your addy buddy, i'll post em out pronto (Gratis obvs as the young people say lol)
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nitrama i had a similar issue and it turned out to be one of the fuel inlet o rings... I'd changed them for new when I Ivanised, but had nicked one. That cylinder was running cold as it was overfuelling, and didn't fire until the bike hit 6k. I actually bought 50 of em as Mike gave me a heads up to sourcing them...if you want half a dozen so its summat else you can knock out of the equation, pm me your addy buddy, i'll post em out pronto (Gratis obvs as the young people say lol)
PM sent. Really appreciate the offer.
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not a problem bud. i'll get em in the post first class in the morning. best of luck with the rest of it mate :thumbup
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You can always buy new starter jets if necessary. However it would not be a huge issue if the starter jets were a little larger than Mikuni 42.5 size as they are not in use unless the choke is operated.
Are they stainless steel jet cleaners? I usually use brass wire from a brass bristle brush as it will not harm the jets.
Never a great fan of Carb Cleaner, much prefer Cellulose thinners, it can tarnish the jets if they are immersed for over a few hours, but certainly dissolves lacquer quicker than carb cleaner.
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Ultrasonic baths are great if you can get hold / borrow one. Cleans out all the small chambers to remove varnish.
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You can always buy new starter jets if necessary. However it would not be a huge issue if the starter jets were a little larger than Mikuni 42.5 size as they are not in use unless the choke is operated.
Are they stainless steel jet cleaners? I usually use brass wire from a brass bristle brush as it will not harm the jets.
Never a great fan of Carb Cleaner, much prefer Cellulose thinners, it can tarnish the jets if they are immersed for over a few hours, but certainly dissolves lacquer quicker than carb cleaner.
Having cleaned and compared all the jets they’re all the same size across the carbs so I’m sure they’re ok.
Youre right though, if I’m in any doubt I’ll just buy a new jet.
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Ultrasonic baths are great if you can get hold / borrow one. Cleans out all the small chambers to remove varnish.
Was thinking about getting one I must admit.
Having a quick look to get one that I can just dump four carbs in is a bit £££££ and I don’t fancy breaking them down to single items either.
In saying that if this doesn’t work.....
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You can always buy new starter jets if necessary. However it would not be a huge issue if the starter jets were a little larger than Mikuni 42.5 size as they are not in use unless the choke is operated.
Are they stainless steel jet cleaners? I usually use brass wire from a brass bristle brush as it will not harm the jets.
Never a great fan of Carb Cleaner, much prefer Cellulose thinners, it can tarnish the jets if they are immersed for over a few hours, but certainly dissolves lacquer quicker than carb cleaner.
Do you know what's the part number for those jets?
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I wonder if by focusing on the starter circuit because you're suffering fueling issues on start-up that you're missing the more likely cause(s). The starter jets are large bore by comparison with the pilot jets and the whole circuit is hardly fine-tuned ... it just serves to richen the mixture for starting and warm-up really. Witness how reluctant the motor is to idle with 'choke' within 30 - 60 secs of firing up.
Before anything else, I assume that the plugs are good and that you've checked the condition of the plug leads. Always worth removing the caps, trimming 1cm off the lead and refitting the caps into fresh cable cores.
The pilot jets are always suspect in fueling issues. Soak in solvent/carb cleaner and be certain that the tiny longitudenal hole is 100% clear. If only partially clear, this will cause hesitant running until the motor is up to temp.
Replace the O-rings on the float needle valve seats like ogri48 suggested. They will be in dodgy condition on almost all Fazer 1000s these days. If they aren't leaking already, they will be soon. Any leakage past them will alter the fuel level in the float bowl and mess with the fueling. It is possible that a high fuel level is causing a rich misfire on cold start up but once the motor is running harder, the demand for fuel is sufficient to reduce the level towards its normal level. This would account for the rough running disappearing when the motor is up to temp.
Do the preceding and then run a few tanks of fuel through with carb cleaner additive to reduce any varnishing that may have occurred in the internal passages. Ultrasonic cleaning should have the same effect but will be far more costly.
FWIW, I've seen Fazer carbs internals that looked diabolical (like green algae, almost!) but they still ran reasonably well. I doubt yours are so badly gummed up as to be beyond sorting if you follow the advice given so far in this thread. :)
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there speaks a man who has seen the insides of fazer carbs more times than I've moaned about still being a builder at sixty years old (ie a foccing lot...) ;) cheers mike :thumbup .Nitrama they should be with you in the morning mate, along with some spares. When I Ivanised I did the first one dry, then used silicone o ring grease on the rest, as that first one had been so tight. So when I had #1 cylinder go down, I kinda new id focced up with that one. Sure enough, I'd guillotined a tiny sliver off the outside radius by fitting it dry, almost impossible to see, but it was doing exactly what Mike described. Hope this sorts it feller...
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That’s a fair old list Mike!
The plugs were changed about a 1000 miles ago, and I had the problem before they were replaced.
However I didn’t try snipping the HT leads. Odd you mention it as when I changed the plugs the HT lead came away from the cap. I screwed it back in, but that’s defiantly worth a try.
I’ve just soaked all the jets in cleaner overnight. I’ll spend some time tonight checking them over.
Again the theory about the fuel levels makes sense - Ogri has kindly supplied O rings so they’ll go in during the reassembly.
The insides of the carbs and all the galleries Seem spotless with no wear (that’s apparent to me) so I think its a careful rebuild in see how we go from there.
I’ll report back.
As always thanks for your help.
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If the lead came out of the cap that easily, it's a fair bet the contact isn't as good as it should be. Easy fix.
The tiny hole at the end of the pilot jet often needs poking clear even after soaking in cleaner. A top E guitar string is ideal ... assuming you play guitar, of course :D
Set the mixture screws to 3 1/2 turns out while you have the carbs on the bench.
Hope this fixes the issue but let us know if it persists. :)
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Just had a close look at the “cleaned” jets.
They all look good through my new favourite toy, an illuminated magnifying glass.
One thing I did notice was that one of the main jet looks like a 130 whilst the others were 132.5.
(That would be replaced during the Ivan install so not too worried about that).
The reason for the post is that I’m changing the rubbers in the needle seat, but can’t actually get it out.
It wobbles when I grab with my fingernails but the rubber seal seems to be holding it in place.
What’s the best way to get it out?
Could use some long nosed pliers and a cloth but thought I’d check with you guys first.
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I think I used long nosed pliars bud. just gotta watch you dont ding the filters as they come out. they are tight little bastards, you can see how I damaged that first bloody o ring...
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The staggered main jet sizes are standard, nothing to do with your problem.
Needle nose pliers, straight pull and try to avoid marring the brass as you do it.
Prise the filters off the float needle seat with a small pick or 'driver. Makes removing/fitting the O-rings a lot easier and reduces chance of damaging them. You will probably find that the old O-rings have flattened and may even snap as you pry them out of their grooves. If so, that tends to suggest that they will have been leaking.
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As I’m comfortable that Ive sorted the problems with the cold starting Ive made the (rash) decision to fit Ivans kit.
Using a pin drill I’ve drilled the two air bypass holes but never felt the bit where it tightened up or dropped by 1mm. I used the drill using very little downward pressure as advised but it just seemed to keep going forever. Probably didn’t but it sure felt like it.
It got to the point where I was concerned I was over drilling so I stopped and took some photo’s. Do the holes look OK?
I also wondered if my pin drill was too fat as the chuck part touches the carb flap. Could that be upsetting the angle of attack?
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And the proper photo!
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Look OK to me but try this ...
Take the drill bit out of the vise, reverse it and try putting the non-fluted end into the hole to check clearance and depth.
You might want to run the drill through again very lightly just to clean up the edges. They look a little rough but it might just be the hi-res photo. :)
Don't worry about the vise touching the throttle plate, that's normal. You've actually achieved a steep angle of attack than I used to which might account for the different feeling you got on completing the enlargement.
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looks good to me too. its a right old game innit lol. be so much easier if you ever do it again ;)
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I’d like to say I’m enjoying this but Jeez it’s bloody horrible! :eek :eek
As Mike suggested I swapped the drill round and it does go in, it definitely tidied up the holes but I’m not sure what it would be like if it was wrong.
I’ve done another two holes and still can’t feel when I’m breaking through.
I just keep stopping and checking to see where I am, then take a view on whether I’ve gone far enough.
I’ve increased the amount of drill poking out of the vice by a couple of mm and that seems to help both in angle and being able to see what I’m doing.
Of course because you’re not going in vertical the holes tapered and it seems much bigger than it actually is (I hope).
I’ll do the other two carbs tomorrow after my poor old heart recovers.
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I had the same worries mate. But im fairly certain you cant overdrill, not by hand anyhow, unless you went absolutely mental at it. once youve broken through I think the bit is up against solid alloy. it'll be fine dude. just make sure you blow all the shite out properly. thats advice from bitter experience again lol ;)
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Extending the bit by a few mils does alter the angle of the cut and that's fine. Too far, though, and the bit becomes more likely to snap. This is not a good thing ...
You're doing great so far. Have you found the online guides to doing the installation? Which kit are you fitting?
With 2 holes enlarged per carb, I suggest you turn the mixture screws out by 4 turns initially. This isn't what you find recommended elsewhere but it's what I found worked best over time.
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Extending the bit by a few mils does alter the angle of the cut and that's fine. Too far, though, and the bit becomes more likely to snap. This is not a good thing ...
You're doing great so far. Have you found the online guides to doing the installation? Which kit are you fitting?
With 2 holes enlarged per carb, I suggest you turn the mixture screws out by 4 turns initially. This isn't what you find recommended elsewhere but it's what I found worked best over time.
I’m using the one for the slip on silencer - even though mines still running a standard system.
I found extending the drill bit helps a bit as it does seem to make it easier to use.
I also got to number 3 carb and found out the reason for my problems. Basically I needed to grow a pair!
I took the taking your time and don’t use excessive force too far and was fannying around too much.
If I upped the pressure (slightly) and increased the rotation speed a bit it went through and dropped/became tight as described.
Went back to the other holes and they all went through as expected. What a Tw*t!
I did set the air screws to 4.75 turns out but if you think I should go with 4 I’ll definitely give that a go.
And Ogri - thanks for the words of encouragement. I didn’t realise how lonely a garage can be when you don’t know what you’re doing :lol
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And Ogri - thanks for the words of encouragement. I didn’t realise how lonely a garage can be when you don’t know what you’re doing :lol
We've all been there bud at one time or another :lol . Keep at it, sounds as though you're doing just fine :thumbup
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Latest update: so I’ve just about finished. Springs cut, slides drilled, jets cleaned and main replaced.
Thanks to Ogri I’ve replaced the O rings too, and I’m glad I did. They really were on their way out! In fact due to the state of them I also bought new needle valves, valve seats and o rings for the pilot jet.
Now I’m checking the float heights and notice that two of them are already at 14mm.
So taking Mike’s statement about always being 12.5 mm I’m either measuring it wrong or the new needle/seats are slightly different lengths from standard. I think it’s more a case of the latter rather than the former?
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Did you buy genuine Yamaha parts? If not, all bets are off ... :)
I've had bad experiences in the past with aftermarket carb parts, particularly replacement float needle units. Never had an OE needle/seat pair leak fuel regardless of age/mileage, though. I suggest you refit the originals and check the float heights again.
On stock floats, the tang which touches the needle valve will be completely flat. It's easy to see if the tang has been bent by someone previously messing with the float height.
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Did you buy genuine Yamaha parts? If not, all bets are off ... :)
I've had bad experiences in the past with aftermarket carb parts, particularly replacement float needle units. Never had an OE needle/seat pair leak fuel regardless of age/mileage, though. I suggest you refit the originals and check the float heights again.
On stock floats, the tang which touches the needle valve will be completely flat. It's easy to see if the tang has been bent by someone previously messing with the float height.
I went with Yambits as I thought they would be better than the stuff you see on eBay for a couple of quid. Maybe I shouldn’t have....
I’ll refit the originals and see what it looks like.
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Replaced the needle valve with the original (kept new needle valve seat) and the float height goes to around what it should be.
One thing I did notice was when I move the carbs, using the old needle valve, the float hits the needle valve then sinks as the pin is compressed.
With the new needle valve, it seems to just sit there and doesn’t compress the pin by much, if at all.
The pin is definitely free but the spring seems to be a slightly higher tension.
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Same thing that I found when I was presented with a set of the Yambits float valve units to fit for someone.
There's a short but distinct pause between the float tang touching the needle pin and when it compresses and the float drops again. Makes a difference, I believe, hence my preference for genuine Yamaha/Mikuni parts.
You should be OK with using the OE needles in the Yambits seats but if it were me, I'd refit the originals and chalk the Yambits buy down to experience.
One of my favourite sayings ... "Experience is what acquire get just after you needed it". :)
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Same thing that I found when I was presented with a set of the Yambits float valve units to fit for someone.
There's a short but distinct pause between the float tang touching the needle pin and when it compresses and the float drops again. Makes a difference, I believe, hence my preference for genuine Yamaha/Mikuni parts.
You should be OK with using the OE needles in the Yambits seats but if it were me, I'd refit the originals and chalk the Yambits buy down to experience.
One of my favourite sayings ... "Experience is what acquire get just after you needed it". :)
Depressing but true. :D
I’ll have another try tomorrow.
I was reading the Yamaha workshop manual (better than the bloody Antiques Roadshow!) and came across the way they recommend checking the float height. I’ll stick with the method on Pats website but interesting none the less.
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The measuring technique, ie with the end of a vernier gauge, is fine. It's the illustration that's misleading as it suggests you can do this with the carbs horizontal. To get the float to rest on the valve without depressing the spring-loaded pin requires the carbs to be tilted.
Rotate the carb bank so that the floats fall away completely from the valve, then slowly turn the carbs back until the float tangs just touch the pin. Go a few degrees further and you'll see the pin compress. Now, turn the carbs back the other way until just touching again and that's where you take the measurement. Takes a bit of practice so do this several times before making any adjustment to the float tang.
It only takes a very slight change in the angle of the float tang to achieve 14mm float height. About 0.5mm deflection or very close. If you have to bend the tang more than that, it's a good bet that you're not measuring with the float in the correct position. :)
The steel tang is quite springy which makes it tricky to get the correct amount of bend because the tang deflects back again. Often it works out easier to over-bend the tang and then ease it back up to where you want it.
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I got a day pass yesterday for being a good boy so spent some quality time on the bike.
After much messing around with a vernier gauge I just couldn’t get repeatable measurements, so in the end bought a float height tool from flea bay for £15 which helped a lot.
So kit fitted, carbs back on, temporary fuel tank set up, Choke on, pressed the starter and up she comes!!! :rollin :rollin :rollin
Couldn’t quite believe it.
Still have to balance the carbs and set up the throttle sensor but everything seems to be working as it should.
Just to prove I can still be a muppet, despite my best efforts I managed to mix up the float bowls for cylinders 1&4.
So now I’ve got the custom look with both outside carb drain plugs being inboard. Not that I’m too bothered.
Really happy I’ve got this far and thanks again to Mike and Paul for their support through this.
I’ll be better at it next time....
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Well done, looking forward now to a positive road test report. :)
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nicely done feller!!! it'll all be worth it. Christ you went to town on them carbs mate, glad its all sorted. And I still make muppet mistakes all the time...more so as I'm getting older. :) :) :) :)
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When I removed the inlet blanking rubbers to balance the carbs the stub came out of the inlet manifold!
Looks like it’s was originally glued in so I assume it’s ok to put some araldite on it?
Balanced the carbs and set up the TPS anyway.
Shame it’s still bloody raining or I’d have been out for a pootle.
Definitely better, and even the choke seems to have an effect.
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When I removed the inlet blanking rubbers to balance the carbs the stub came out of the inlet manifold!
Looks like it’s was originally glued in so I assume it’s ok to put some araldite on it?
Balanced the carbs and set up the TPS anyway.
Shame it’s still bloody raining or I’d have been out for a pootle.
Definitely better, and even the choke seems to have an effect.
old bikes are such fun aren't they :lol :lol ;) hopefully its all sort4d now. Talking of muppet mistakes...my bro in laws xjr1300 had just that little bit more than mine off the line, I tried everything, including stripping the carbs and cleaning them thoroughly (twice), new inlet rubbers (36ys...the unrestricted fjr jobbies) new plugs, new airfilter, 4 degree ignition advancer. Only after doing all that did I think 'oh hang on...I wonder...' checked his gearbox sprocket and it was a 17t. mine was the stock 18. they both run identically now... :lol . all these years having bikes (passed me test in 77) and I still dont think to check the simple stuff first...
good luck with the bike buddy
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Finally got round to riding the bloody thing (I’ve always been a bit slow!)
In my defence as well as the carbs being stripped and Ivanised, I’ve started at one end of the bike and serviced just about everything.
So it was with some trepidation I thought I’d better ride it before we’re all locked in.
First impressions were good; the fuel was a bit stale so whilst the choke worked (that’s a first) it was a bit fluffy low down until it warmed up.
Taking it easy for a couple of miles until the engine was warm, I then wound on the throttle in third (I think!) Jeezuz it took off like the proverbial cat. I got to 10k just hanging on. I had a quick look at the speedo and it did seem to be an awful long way round.
It was also still pulling....
I’ve been trundling around in a car for some time so I’m willing to believe I‘m a bit rusty when it comes to power, but the real revelation to me was the mid range pick up off a closed throttle. Before I’d really struggled on roundabouts with the trailing throttle to light throttle transition being really jerky. Not any more. Loverly!!
Ive just spent the rest of the time accelerating from 30 to 70 in out local lanes, just because if feels so responsive.
I think I feel less vibes too.
I did have a hankering for an OM10, but Whilst I’m sure it’s a fantastic bike I don’t think it’s worth the (at least) £8k extra it will cost me considering the mileage I cover.
Not that logic has ever stopped me from buying a bike if a fancy it :evil
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OM10. Wtf!! Clearly my brain is more mush than I thought.
Fz10 of course, or maybe I really meant OW01,which would cost me considerable more than £8k :eek
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FZ10/MT10 is a real beast, I love it, but hey, 15000 euro, pff that's a loudness of money, so a no no for me
Love my gen1 Fazer, after Ivanisinn and 4 degree advancer, I am in love with this bike. Ported intakes an moded air filter is next on my list
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But then again I can see a 2016 MT10 with 2,800 miles for £8,300!
Maybe I could strike a deal to change for £5k?
Must stop watching YouTube videos of MT10s on one wheel at 80+ mph..... not that I can wheelie like that anyway!
I’m getting too old for this too, but if I remember not to look in the mirror I can still think I’m in my 30’s rather than twice that.
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Just to confirm that my own with Ivan's slip-on kit is very difficult to start, particularly in the colder months of the year. Seems to be a few people who've noticed this trait over the years. Think I followed the installation procedure to the letter, too... but will maybe take the carbs apart again and double check next winter