coil upgrades on the fazer- is there an option?

[oberonspacefruit]

2002 fazer

Ive changed the caps to NGKs six months ago, after the bike was running rough in the rain, and it sorted the problem.

Its now losing power again, it will pick up under hard acceleration, as if a cyl is kicking in under the vibration or somthing. generally, its bearable though.

the other day i hears a clicking sound, it seems to be coming from the near side cap, it doesnt always happen immediately, but after a short ride it clicks again.

i took lead off whilst it was running, and before it died , i heard a similar click, as the lead arced out.

Now im not 100 per cent sure the click is deffo that, but as i have problems in the rain, or after washing it, im thinking it may be worth changing the leads.

when i changed the plug caps last time, i snipped 10mm off the leads to get it to contact with clean metal. the leads are now a bit tighter, and they wont take another snipping.

The problem is, new yamaha coils/leads are pretty expensive . if i have to buy them ill accept it, but on every other bike ive had ive been able to buy the coils/leads caps seperately.

So, the question is, will another aftermarket coil fit on, thats not permanently attached to the lead? that way if im replacing leads, i dont have to replace the whole unit?

Also, if i did have to stick with fazer coils, and i went for used, would late model ones work on mine?  Its a bit of a risk buying 16 year old coils and leads as one unit id have thought....

Im not keen on the idea of the conversion that uses caps with integral coils, as im not great at wiring, and im not really that keen on the look of them either......

Thanks in advance for any info...

[darrsi]

What about trying these?


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Ignition-HT-Coil-Yamaha-FZS600-Fazer-98-03-/141338891015?hash=item20e8745307:g:1SAAAOSwImRYLy36

[vinnyb]

 Have you looked at Dynatek coils to see if they make one that's suitable?

[oberonspacefruit]

What about trying these?


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Ignition-HT-Coil-Yamaha-FZS600-Fazer-98-03-/141338891015?hash=item20e8745307:g:1SAAAOSwImRYLy36

they look pretty good, and a reasonable price still stuck with fixed leads but at that price its not as much as an issue.


Ill have a look at dynatech now.

[oberonspacefruit]

 Have you looked at Dynatek coils to see if they make one that's suitable?

Just had a look and they start at £100 and go to about £180
probably a good option, and it answers my question, but with a £220 price tag for 2 coils and leads its the high end of the scale.

good suggestion though

[vinnyb]

 Something to consider perhaps, is the possibility of changing back to your old ones and reselling them on Ebay when you change the bike. Maybe a thought.

[daviee]

why not just replace the ht cable as close to the coil as you can with these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-Spark-Plug-Cap-NGK-J1-Cable-Splicer-for-7mm-HT-Cable-/231037252233?hash=item35cae4b289:g:oXIAAOxy9LxSFJaa

[oberonspacefruit]

why not just replace the ht cable as close to the coil as you can with these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-Spark-Plug-Cap-NGK-J1-Cable-Splicer-for-7mm-HT-Cable-/231037252233?hash=item35cae4b289:g:oXIAAOxy9LxSFJaa

thats not a bad shout, thats just the same design as ive seen on the outgoing end of coils ive had on prvious bikes. A join is not tottally ideal, but at least you could get it up under the tank out of the rain.....

[red98]

Insulation taped to keep the moisture out....or, better still a bit of heat shrink tubing

[daviee]

they joiners are waterproof so should just be plug and play

[oberonspacefruit]

apart from the fittings, is there any difference between cdi coils?
is there an electrical output difference or somthing? they seem to be very specific on ebay.

is there a specified output? does anyone know the number for this year of fazer?

as you can see electrics arent my strong point......

[daviee]

what used to be the biggest difference was either points or cdi / electronic coils so i would think any coil that is electronic would do we just put a set of electronic one on an old z900 with points and they work fine  so as long as its not ones for points i cant see how it wouldnt work
 

[vinnyb]

 The primary winding resistance is apparently 1.87 to 2.53 ohms @20°C according to Manuel Haynez. Dunno if it buggers up your CDI if you go with a higher one though.

[unfazed]

Once the primary and secondary are within the specifications any coil with 2 secondary coil leads will do.
I think you are referring to the newer"coil over plug" ignition coil or "stick coils" as they are commonly  called. These are not suitable for the Fazer for different reasons.

The most likely issue is water ingress and/or corrosion within the leads/caps. Unfortunately NGK caps are not easily dismantled to clean like the OEM ones.

Best preventative method is use some Dielectric grease on the lead plus the inside of the top boot and the ceramic section of the plug. Also try not to park the bike on the side stand in heavy rain, water pools around number 3 Plug/cap

I still run with OEM caps (after 87000 miles on a bike used everyday in all weather) which have been cleaned and used the internal resistor of the NGK caps as it is stainless compare to the OEM  (Cheap and problematic) carbon ones.

Finally check the Coils and ensure all connection are clean a fitting properly

[oberonspacefruit]

Thanks for all the replies, I think I, and anyone with the same problem in future has all the info there is to be had on this subject, in this thread now.

As a matter of reference, thinking on for future readers, I bought the angled NGK plug caps, thinking theyd mimic the OE ones position wise, and TBH they are too short to angle over the casting on the head so the straight ones would be better IMO. They do work, but tah may be contributing to stressing the leads due to the angles....

[Fazerider]

what used to be the biggest difference was either points or cdi / electronic coils so i would think any coil that is electronic would do we just put a set of electronic one on an old z900 with points and they work fine  so as long as its not ones for points i cant see how it wouldnt work

You’re half right.
There are two basic technologies: points and CDI. Points consists of a mechanical contact breaker driven by a cam that would make contact for a certain number of degrees of engine rotation (dwell angle), this connects battery volts across the coil primary, current builds up (at a rate determined by the inductance of the primary) during this period and when the contacts open the spark occurs.
The cam is normally mounted on a base that can rotate slightly as centrifugal force increases and that give you a spark advance at higher revs.


What the Fazer has is an electronic version of that. It’s better because there’s no mechanical switch to wear or get contaminated and gives more flexibility in spark timing. However, it shares one problem in that the time available for the current to buildup in the coil decreases as engine speed rises This means the sparks get weaker at high revs. So the coil design, as for points ignition, is a bit of a fudge to give an adequate spark at high revs while at low revs the current is limited by the coil resistance.


Even though I’m as guilty as everyone else in calling the Fazer’s ignitor box a CDI, this isn’t actually what it has.
CDI uses a more sophisticated circuit that quickly charges a small capacitor to a very much higher voltage than the battery and this is discharged through the primary when you want the spark to occur. This means the spark can have the same energy every time regardless of engine revs but it does need a coil designed to suit the input and this can vary from one manufacturer to another.
I had a GPZ305 many years ago which uses a crude version of CDI in which the capacitor is charged by a high voltage winding on the alternator. This winding repeatedly failed so I made a circuit that produced a stream of high voltage pulses to simulate what it should have produced… I didn’t know what that was and had to wind up the output of the box until the engine ran well: the voltage the capacitor needed turned out to be 140V.


(OK, there is a third sort of ignition: magneto, which used points and a high voltage alternator winding and the increased output of the winding would compensate for the reduction in output due to the fixed dwell angle. You’re more likely to find that on a lawnmower than a bike (unless you have a very old one)… and I suspect everyone is    now so I’ll shut up.) 

[daviee]

what used to be the biggest difference was either points or cdi / electronic coils so i would think any coil that is electronic would do we just put a set of electronic one on an old z900 with points and they work fine  so as long as its not ones for points i cant see how it wouldnt work

You’re half right.
There are two basic technologies: points and CDI. Points consists of a mechanical contact breaker driven by a cam that would make contact for a certain number of degrees of engine rotation (dwell angle), this connects battery volts across the coil primary, current builds up (at a rate determined by the inductance of the primary) during this period and when the contacts open the spark occurs.
The cam is normally mounted on a base that can rotate slightly as centrifugal force increases and that give you a spark advance at higher revs.


What the Fazer has is an electronic version of that. It’s better because there’s no mechanical switch to wear or get contaminated and gives more flexibility in spark timing. However, it shares one problem in that the time available for the current to buildup in the coil decreases as engine speed rises This means the sparks get weaker at high revs. So the coil design, as for points ignition, is a bit of a fudge to give an adequate spark at high revs while at low revs the current is limited by the coil resistance.


Even though I’m as guilty as everyone else in calling the Fazer’s ignitor box a CDI, this isn’t actually what it has.
CDI uses a more sophisticated circuit that quickly charges a small capacitor to a very much higher voltage than the battery and this is discharged through the primary when you want the spark to occur. This means the spark can have the same energy every time regardless of engine revs but it does need a coil designed to suit the input and this can vary from one manufacturer to another.
I had a GPZ305 many years ago which uses a crude version of CDI in which the capacitor is charged by a high voltage winding on the alternator. This winding repeatedly failed so I made a circuit that produced a stream of high voltage pulses to simulate what it should have produced… I didn’t know what that was and had to wind up the output of the box until the engine ran well: the voltage the capacitor needed turned out to be 140V.


(OK, there is a third sort of ignition: magneto, which used points and a high voltage alternator winding and the increased output of the winding would compensate for the reduction in output due to the fixed dwell angle. You’re more likely to find that on a lawnmower than a bike (unless you have a very old one)… and I suspect everyone is    now so I’ll shut up.) 

so  what will work and what wont work with a fazer ? i would have though as long as its electronic ignition coil it would work ?

[Fazerider]

what used to be the biggest difference was either points or cdi / electronic coils so i would think any coil that is electronic would do we just put a set of electronic one on an old z900 with points and they work fine  so as long as its not ones for points i cant see how it wouldnt work

You’re half right.
There are two basic technologies: points and CDI. Points consists of a mechanical contact breaker driven by a cam that would make contact for a certain number of degrees of engine rotation (dwell angle), this connects battery volts across the coil primary, current builds up (at a rate determined by the inductance of the primary) during this period and when the contacts open the spark occurs.
The cam is normally mounted on a base that can rotate slightly as centrifugal force increases and that give you a spark advance at higher revs.


What the Fazer has is an electronic version of that. It’s better because there’s no mechanical switch to wear or get contaminated and gives more flexibility in spark timing. However, it shares one problem in that the time available for the current to buildup in the coil decreases as engine speed rises This means the sparks get weaker at high revs. So the coil design, as for points ignition, is a bit of a fudge to give an adequate spark at high revs while at low revs the current is limited by the coil resistance.


Even though I’m as guilty as everyone else in calling the Fazer’s ignitor box a CDI, this isn’t actually what it has.
CDI uses a more sophisticated circuit that quickly charges a small capacitor to a very much higher voltage than the battery and this is discharged through the primary when you want the spark to occur. This means the spark can have the same energy every time regardless of engine revs but it does need a coil designed to suit the input and this can vary from one manufacturer to another.
I had a GPZ305 many years ago which uses a crude version of CDI in which the capacitor is charged by a high voltage winding on the alternator. This winding repeatedly failed so I made a circuit that produced a stream of high voltage pulses to simulate what it should have produced… I didn’t know what that was and had to wind up the output of the box until the engine ran well: the voltage the capacitor needed turned out to be 140V.


(OK, there is a third sort of ignition: magneto, which used points and a high voltage alternator winding and the increased output of the winding would compensate for the reduction in output due to the fixed dwell angle. You’re more likely to find that on a lawnmower than a bike (unless you have a very old one)… and I suspect everyone is    now so I’ll shut up.) 

so  what will work and what wont work with a fazer ? i would have though as long as its electronic ignition coil it would work ?

I'd go for the ones Darrsi suggested.