Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial

Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: Ton13 on 25 October 2011, 09:01:26 am

Title: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Ton13 on 25 October 2011, 09:01:26 am
Hi, A Mechanic Friend is doing a service for me but he has asked me to get my oil and kit etc.
 
Just wondered what oil people use and which one will be best for me? Its never had a big service and has done about 24,000 so want to complete oil change etc?!
 
Any advice will be greatfully recieved!
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Fazerider on 25 October 2011, 09:10:45 am
I've bought various brands over the years, but for the past 30,000 miles or so have used Halfords semi-synthetic with no problems. Nice and cheap (relatively) and works fine. Whatever you choose, make sure it's one that's specified for motorcycles.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: mars696 on 25 October 2011, 10:01:55 am
I have tried:
- motul 5000 ,i dont like them,the gearbox was very noisy.
- torco t4r, excellent oil,it made the gear a litle bit softer and quieter.
- castrol power1 gps,excellend oil too.


All of them are semi synthetic.If you ask me,in the next oil change i will choose castrol again. :)
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Skippernick on 25 October 2011, 01:23:03 pm
Being Yamahas wouldn't Yamalube be the best option, price not being a factor?
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: mars696 on 25 October 2011, 01:59:58 pm
Quote from: Skippernick on 25 October 2011, 01:23:03 pm
Being Yamahas wouldn't Yamalube be the best option, price not being a factor?


I m 99% sure that Yamalube oil are made by Motul.So you are using Motul oil.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: richfzs on 25 October 2011, 05:16:05 pm
Quote from: Fazerider on 25 October 2011, 09:10:45 am
Whatever you choose, make sure it's one that's specified for motorcycles.

Ah, where's pete when you need him :lol
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: subby on 25 October 2011, 05:52:22 pm
I have used nothing but Castrol power 1 semi synthetic in both my bikes.. my Honda Transalp has done 50k miles with me on that stuff .. ( bike now has 82k on it! ) and i use the same in the fazer with no issues. Worth the extra few quid in my view.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Skippernick on 25 October 2011, 06:02:14 pm
Quote from: mars696 on 25 October 2011, 01:59:58 pm
Quote from: Skippernick on 25 October 2011, 01:23:03 pm
Being Yamahas wouldn't Yamalube be the best option, price not being a factor?


I m 99% sure that Yamalube oil are made by Motul.So you are using Motul oil.


Is that why my gear box is clunky then? Thought it was just a redeeming feature of the bike.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: mars696 on 25 October 2011, 06:09:44 pm
The clunky gearbox for a fazer ( not only) its absolutely normal!! Dont worry.
Far from this,some oils make the gearbox softer, but not "butter" ;) .
So dont expect miracles, just  an improvment! :)
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Major Rant on 25 October 2011, 07:35:38 pm
Quote
Ah, where's pete when you need him ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

 
I've been promoted  :lol
 
Read previous posts. There's no such thing as bloody "Motorcycle oil" just "Oil that is marketed for motorcycles" by men in suits that finance bike-racing.
 
Use what Mr Yamaha tells you to use ... That's any 10/30 or 10/40 oil that meets the SL or CF spec. Doesn't matter what machine is pictured on the can:  Car, Bike, Lawnmower or Hovercraft.
 
Avoid oil that has "friction reducing additives" or you will need to clean and rebuild your clutch.
(that's what he means by "some car oils should be avoided")
 
Personally I use the cheapest oil that meets the spec (currently ASDA 10/40) and I change it twice as often as Mr Yamaha says. That's because new cheap oil is better than 3000 mile "wonder-oil".
 
I then use the old oil mixed with "creosote substitute" to paint the fence.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Fazerider on 25 October 2011, 08:50:01 pm
Hmm.. I prefer not to spread carcinogenic waste oil around my garden. I take it to my council recycling centre so that it can be turned into Asda 10/40. :pokefun


I had been under the impression that some car oils are unsuitable for bikes, not only because of the wet clutch issue, but because requirements for gear oil and engine oil are different and the gearbox is normally separate in cars. The Duckhams Hypergrade I used to put in my Kawasaki GPZ305 certainly didn't do the cam lobes any favours. :'(
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Major Rant on 25 October 2011, 09:09:57 pm
Quote
I take it to my council recycling centre so that it can be turned into Asda 10/40.

If you did, it wouldn't meet the SL or CF spec - so you wouldn't want to buy it, would you? :pokefun
Having said that, there are oils out there (notably Car-lube 20/50) that don't meet the spec and look suspiciously like they ARE made from waste oil.
I would use them in my Mk1 Escort (RIP) or my lawnmower.
(Amusingly, Briggs and Stratton sternly warn you against using any oil other than special SAE30 Lawnmower oil in their 1940 side-valve 1000RPM
agricultural wonder. Available for only £10 a litre at your local Wyevale in a green bottle :rollin
Does the message sound familiar?)
 
For an oil to meet that spec it has to contain enough zinc-dialkyl-phosphate to act as a "barrier of last resort" against metal-metal contact when the oil film breaks down cos its too thin to cover the impact forces as your piston ring rattles down the bore 150 times a second. That sliding-seal in the presence of hot exploding gas is a far more severe test of oils than the nice clean push and slide cog-cog contact in a gearbox. I would be more worried about my gears wearing out after exposure to all those carbon and nitride particles that contaminate the oil on the barrel walls.
 
 
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Slaninar on 26 October 2011, 02:18:03 pm
Quote from: Skippernick on 25 October 2011, 06:02:14 pm
Quote from: mars696 on 25 October 2011, 01:59:58 pm
Quote from: Skippernick on 25 October 2011, 01:23:03 pm
Being Yamahas wouldn't Yamalube be the best option, price not being a factor?


I m 99% sure that Yamalube oil are made by Motul.So you are using Motul oil.


Is that why my gear box is clunky then? Thought it was just a redeeming feature of the bike.

My info is Yamalube is not Motul, nor made by Motul. It is not possible to get complete specs and origin from what I found out. At the price (at least in my country), Yamalube costs almost as much as Motul, but Motul is the best oil I think.

Motul 7100 is the best IMO.
You could go semi synth with Motul 5100.

Repsol is also fine.

10w40 viscosity for England and northern Europe, 10w50, or 15w50 for hot hot heat.

Car oil without friction modifiers can do, but is not as good as GOOD motorcycle specific oil. Some brands just pack car oils in different bottles, but good companies make motorcycle specific oil. Motul, Repsol, Silkolene, Mobil to name a few.

Oil is not where I try to save money.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Major Rant on 26 October 2011, 08:30:43 pm
Quote
Car oil without friction modifiers can do, but is not as good as GOOD motorcycle specific oil.

Based on what evidence ? :pokefun
 
You lot should try going to Church more often. Its full of people who believe things because they think life would be great if it was all true.
 
If motorcycling was a religion, the oil company "suits" would be the high-priests and Ned Flanders would have a VMax covered in Motul stickers (and a little fishy on his slightly undersized numberplate).
 
"Stupid Flanders .... Gaining happiness from religion" - H Simpson  :D
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Slaninar on 27 October 2011, 04:14:32 pm
Quote from: Major Rant on 26 October 2011, 08:30:43 pm
Based on what evidence ? :pokefun

Repost my text from old yuku forum:Motorcycle (vs car) engine is different in several ways:1) Clutch is in the same oil, wet clutch.2) More rpms. This puts tension on camshaft. Smaller surface takes more pressure per square inch in motorcycle.If going for auto oils, I was told not to go above SG specification semi-synthetic oils. If using auto full synth, or any above API SG, then clutch slippage is to be expected. Like you said, difference in price is nowhere near the risk taken.Silkolene semi-synth COMP 4  10w40 goes for around 7.5 e per litre here. That is what 2 oil experts recommended and agreed upon for FZS engine. One of them also recommended Motul, but said Silkolene is cheaper and almost just as good.One more thing. They also said that many oil companies sell auto oil as motor oil - which means their oil, even motorcycle specific stuff, is bad. Didn't want to say which ones, but said:"Bad stuff isn't alway cheap.Good stuff is never cheap."What they did want to say are companies who do not pack auto oil an whose motorcycle oil is at least decent. Motul, Mobile (Fuchs), Silkolene, Bel Ray are the mentioned ones I can remember. Doesn't mean some other are not good, but these were "approved" by them.What I fail to understand is how FZS engine can not benefit from full synthetic oil. From what I learned, full synth can give 1-2 k kms longer change intervals and somewhat better protection.They also said to stick to 5000 km change for town use, and 6-7 k km change for traveling. However, they said this goes for Serbia only (our petrol has a lot of sulphur - bad quality fuel).

If I had 2 new motorcylces, I would gladly do the testing myself. Ride one on car, the other on decen motorcycle specific oil. Then, after some  50.000 kms, perhaps I could come to a clonclusion. I believe that car oil could be as good, but price difference is just not worth the risk for me.

Coming from an experienced mechanic I know (and trust): Motul and Repsol are oils which never made problems for any bike.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Major Rant on 27 October 2011, 08:49:34 pm
Well, there's no evidence there is there?  :pokefun .
 
And just because you say it twice doesn't make it true , does it?  :pokefun
 
Whats in these 'motorcycle oils' that make them any better than SL spec 10/40?? We should be told!
Reading the Silkolene site and it tells me that they developed "special high shear polymers" to improve
on the basic mineral oil of the 1960s. :rollin
 
It doesn't say "This is better than a standard modern SL multigrade from the year 2011" . Don't you think it would say that if it were true??
They talk a lot about the perils of using inferior oil but its all based on fear, not data.
 
They tell a story about how Joe ruined his race engine using cheap oil but they don't publish any shear degredation data.
Don't you think they would plaster that data all over the can if it was significant and true ?.
 
I bet Joe's toilet smells cos he doesn't use Harpic too.  :D
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Skippernick on 27 October 2011, 09:50:32 pm
Ladies calm down :pokefun
I'm sure this thread was started to help fazerrider with a choice not to start arguments. ;)
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Fazerider on 27 October 2011, 10:22:20 pm
Ah, Easy Rider's thread Skippernick, not mine... I'm merely the bloke who (inadvertently) started the argument.
But, it's turning out to be more fun than I'd expected. :lol


The Major may be correct, perhaps when we buy oil with the word Motorcycle on the container we are just paying over the odds for car oil. However, I'll stick with my current choice.
A) I've used car oil in a bike previously and had problems.
B) Car and bike engines are very different... it's not unreasonable to expect that oil companies can tailor products to cope with different requirements.
C) By replacing my slightly pricier oil at the recommended service intervals I'm saving money and spending less time getting my hands dirty than the Major who doesn't actually have the courage of his convictions and so changes his oil twice as often. [/size] :pokefun
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Slaninar on 27 October 2011, 10:31:18 pm
Quote from: Major Rant on 27 October 2011, 08:49:34 pm
Well, there's no evidence there is there?  :pokefun .
 

Yes, I agree with you. There is no 100% clear evidence. Just like cigars causing lung cancer. No 100% evidence, but I believe they don't help.

Have you tried any fully synth car oil in Fazer engine (and clutch)? Was everything fine?


Bottom line: your money, your bike - do whatever you like. For the price difference I don't want to risk.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: SteveCardiff on 27 October 2011, 11:04:22 pm
Always used semi synth Vauxhall car oil in my bikes cos I get it almost free. Used it in GPZ9, did about 15k on that, CBR Thou, took that from 25k to 67k, and my current CBR Thou has close on 50k on it. Never had problems.


There was also a bloke in 'Ride' magazine (i think) a few years back who was a courier. He did 440,000 miles on one of his VFR800s and used the cheapest car oil he could find. Changed it every week and had no problems either.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: daveph on 27 October 2011, 11:11:42 pm
Easy Rider 13, what have you done?  I saw your post and thought take cover.   It is a much discussed subject, as you can now tell.  Something the right spec, semi-synth, nothing fancy, will do the job.
Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Skippernick on 28 October 2011, 05:52:16 pm
Oh yeah :oops
sorry fazerrider i did mean easy rider.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Major Rant on 28 October 2011, 06:57:10 pm
Quote
the Major who doesn't actually have the courage of his convictions and so changes his oil twice as often.

Not true !!... I do it because I have DATA ( y'know ... evidence with numbers :pokefun ) that shows that ALL OIL degrades in use and none of them can be trusted to stay within their viscosity window more than a few K miles and it is therefore good for my engine.*
 
Here it is :
 
Relative Viscosity Retention (as a percentage of initial viscosity retained
after normal use in the same motorcycle)
0 miles800mi1500mi
Mobil 1
Castrol Syntec
Castrol GTX
Honda HP4
Spectro 4
100%
100%
100%
100%
100%		86.6%
78.1%
72.2%
69.2%
68.0%		83.0%
74.5%
68.0%
65.6%
63.9%

* Actually synthetic oils can (see Mobil 1 above).. I'm leaning towards the use of Asda or Tesco Fully Synthetic, which has been wondrous in the car - still amber and oily after 11K miles
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Major Rant on 28 October 2011, 07:09:35 pm
Quote
Have you tried any fully synth car oil in Fazer engine (and clutch)? Was everything fine?

No, but I'm leaning that way (as I said above) and I will use it next time. Others on here have used it and there was 1 bloke reporting what he thought was clutch-slip. Worst that can heppen is that I take it out and use it to top-up the car.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Fazerider on 28 October 2011, 11:38:19 pm
Quote from: Major Rant on 28 October 2011, 06:57:10 pm
... ALL OIL degrades in use and none of them can be trusted to stay within their viscosity window more than a few K miles...


Indeed, but presumably Yamaha are aware of that too. If they'd cynically increased the service interval from 4000 to 6000 miles in order to sell more spares they'd soon find a reputation for selling vehicles that don't last isn't good for business. Unless you're seeing if you can get a world record mileage out of a Fazer engine I can't see the point in changing oil more frequently than the manufacturers recommend.


I tried to find some details on the Tesco website about their fully synthetic, aside from a choice of 5W30 or 5W40 the information was limited to advice that nutritional content is subject to change. :lol
Since viscosity modifiers supposedly get chewed up worse by the higher speeds in bike gearboxes, wouldn't an oil like that (with a wider range than required) suffer more than a 10W40?
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Slaninar on 29 October 2011, 01:00:06 am
Quote from: Fazerider on 28 October 2011, 11:38:19 pm
Since viscosity modifiers supposedly get chewed up worse by the higher speeds in bike gearboxes, wouldn't an oil like that (with a wider range than required) suffer more than a 10W40?

Yes it would. 10w40, 15w50 are longer lasting ones. 10w50, 5w40 would break up quicker. However, good quality full synth can hold well for 4000 mile change interval in a Fazer engine.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: solorider on 29 October 2011, 01:15:07 am
Quote from: SteveCardiff on 27 October 2011, 11:04:22 pm
Always used semi synth Vauxhall car oil in my bikes cos I get it almost free. Used it in GPZ9, did about 15k on that, CBR Thou, took that from 25k to 67k, and my current CBR Thou has close on 50k on it. Never had problems.


There was also a bloke in 'Ride' magazine (i think) a few years back who was a courier. He did 440,000 miles on one of his VFR800s and used the cheapest car oil he could find. Changed it every week and had no problems either.
i have used vauxhall oil in my bikes in the past and i also have had no issues with it and i would use it again,and i can also get it cheap as well
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: born to be mild on 29 October 2011, 11:33:47 am
I get my engine oil from Morrisons, I think its Comma brand or some such, cheap, meets the specs and life is too short to worry about whether your toy will go around the clock unless youre a courier or something. Not that I want to sound contentous or anything...
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Jacko on 30 October 2011, 05:56:17 pm
Wilkos for me
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: born to be mild on 30 October 2011, 08:37:06 pm
Hmmm Wilkos, soundslike quality so I'll give it a go jacko. Thanks for the tip.The money that I save over the Motul rubbish I can spend on skin care products cos I like to pamper myself.  :D
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Ton13 on 30 October 2011, 10:47:16 pm
Quote from: daveph on 27 October 2011, 11:11:42 pm
Easy Rider 13, what have you done?  I saw your post and thought take cover.   It is a much discussed subject, as you can now tell.  Something the right spec, semi-synth, nothing fancy, will do the job.
Cheers
Dave

hey dave,
after reading all this everyday i am even more confused then before, ha! I really just needed to know which oil it is i.e. 10/40 4stroke etc, only ever having a moped before my bike! I think im looking at the silkolene stuffs which i can buy with my service kit?
 
BTW, is 4 litres enough for a full oil change?
 
cheeerrrrrrs!
 
(p.s.... you may continue your bickerments as it is rather enjpyable  :lol )
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Major Rant on 30 October 2011, 11:45:36 pm
BTW, is 4 litres enough for a full oil change?

 
I think its nearer 3 litres.
 
If you want to buy "Silkolene" after reading and digesting what's been said above then go ahead.
 
While worshiping at your shrine you can think of me relaxing on my atheist sun-lounger while I'm not earning the money that I'm unnecessarily paying to the marketing suits that sell the snake-oil. :D
 
I'll be using someone's unbranded synthetic 10/40 next time for £3 a litre.
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Ton13 on 30 October 2011, 11:48:38 pm
Thats what i mean Major, with all these different opinions i am still non the wiser as to what i should use.... i know in my moped i used the Comma and that was fairly ok, and have used cheaper versions for that.
 
So is cheap ok, does it make a difference ?
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Fazerider on 31 October 2011, 07:09:41 pm
Tonie, if you want a consensus view on the best oil to use you've come to the wrong place! There are as many opinions as there are oils available.
The main problem is the oil companies are a secretive lot... even if you can find something claiming to be a technical specification for a particular product it turns out to be vague advertising puff.
We do know that bike engines are a tougher challenge for oil than car engines, and also (mostly) have the constraint of a wet clutch. We also know the wear reducers of last resort, those containing zinc and phosphorous, are not good for catalytic converters so the concentrations are restricted in car oils. Now, since bikes in the UK don't need cats, in theory, motorcycle oils could contain higher levels of these additives. Whether they actually do is another matter, the rest of the EU says bikes do need cats... so do oil companies make different oils for us bikers in the UK? I don't know the answer to that. I just guess they might and can at least be sure that if it says "Motorcycle" on the can it's not going to contain additives that make the clutch slip.
It's not like the difference in price is that great. If you buy the cheapest car oil you can find, you might save £12 on the oil change compared to something that says motorcycle on the container, which equates to about a fifth of a penny per mile... that compares with around 11p per mile you're spending on fuel (assuming your bike returns about 52mpg, which is what mine does).
For peace of mind, that's not a saving I regard as worth making.


Hope you're having a happy birthday, btw and I hope someone bought you four litres of expensive bike oil. :lol
 
Title: Re: Which Oil Is Best?
Post by: Ton13 on 04 November 2011, 12:11:08 pm
Quote
Hope you're having a happy birthday, btw and I hope someone bought you four litres of expensive bike oil. ([url]http://foc-u.co.uk/Smileys/efocicon/lol.gif[/url])

 
Luckily for me my mom decided to go to the shop and buy me a service kit for my bday! she also got the Silkolene oil as its mid price range, havent done the oil change as yet, thats the plan for after work today !
 
Thanks for all the advice people! :)