I think I'm generally very light braker Gnash, the pads that are in are still virtually new too, hardly any wear on them at all.


Like
Y many tens of thousands of miles left in both pads and discs !

just a quick question - the front discs on our Fazer 600 (15,500 miles) for all intents and purposes look brand new.


The bike hasn't been ridden hard, the pads are original and hardly worn and the brakes work perfectly.


BUT, when I put my digital vernier caliper on them today they both measured (within 0.05mm) 4mm thick. Checking in my Haynes manual, it lists the disc thickness as 5mm New with a minimum service limit of 4.5mm.


The rear disc is 4.97mm thick, with the same 5mm new, 4.5mm minimum limits listed in the Haynes.


I've never ever had a set of discs wear out on me in 45 years of riding (with a number of my bikes reaching +70k miles) and my FJ 12 discs were still perfectly in spec after 75k miles.


Is the info in the Haynes manual wrong? Or do I have a real problem with the front discs on the 600 ?

Just a note Shaz - that bike is what is known as a "box eye" Fazer, which means that it was made before 2002 and was either sold after being on the shop floor for a couple of years, or there may be something in the bikes history that you haven't yet discovered - although there's obvious signs of crash damage to the exhaust and right side engine casing.


Either way, £2,000 approx for a (pre 2002) box eye is more than I'd want to pay, especially with crash damage.

Don't want private details, but would you be happy to share the approx price band that it sold for, e.g. £1000-£1500, £1500-£2000 etc ?


It seems like it sold pretty quickly, so it doesn't seem as though it was difficult to sell !

[size=78%] [/size][font=.SFUIText][/size]You've been sold a pup there Reaper !!!!! You could get your money back under the Trade Descriptions Act - Everyone knows red is the fastest Fazer colour[/font][font=.SFUIText][/size][/color] [/font]

For many years I've heard that most (80%) of the wear and damage in an engine occurs during start-up and shit down.

On shut-down, the very thin oil film over bearing surfaces etc stops being "circulated" and sits there between 2 extremely hot metal surfaces which don't have fresh oil replacing that in place, to cool them - it carbonises and loses it lubricating properties and leaves a deposit on the bearing surface that is not a lubricant.

On start-up, bearings and other engine surfaces, run with less than optimal oil coverage/oil pressure and so additional wear occurs.

I'm sure that hasn't changed, but maybe the make-up of oils has changed so that it's no longer the issue it used to be, but being an old Luddite, all I can see these stop-start systems systems doing is causing extra wear/damage to the engine.

I'm sure the only reason they were developed was so that car engines would automatically shut off during the laboratory testing process to determine the emissions levels for compliance reporting and vehicle approval  (basically it was a "cheat" just like the VW cheat, but only adopted by every manufacturer), with no real-world benefit or relevance. But now that it's been adopted though, it can't be dropped unless the testing process is changed, otherwise all the cars would fail to comply in the "lab-based testing" !!

JANEY MAC...!!!!    clearly i can use engine braking / rear / front brake to lose all my speed before i start to turn in, and POOTLE around on a nicely balanced throttle (BOLT UPRIGHT and reading MCN) and then accelerate GENTLY out of the curve...BUT..... i'm driving a HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle, not a VINTAGE TRACTOR, on a dry country road, so i will continue to approach at a BRISK pace, changing down and trail braking MODERATELY to steady the ship into the bend, and pull out HARD...!!!!      ....

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't do it your way Steve, but if you really do want to ride properly-fast, get some advice from the professionals (not us lot) - unless you're a natural riding god already, you'll be amazed by how much quicker you will actually ride.


It's possible (nay....its undeniable) that making SMOOTH inputs (not slow inputs) is the way all the fastest riders do it - if you do a lap of Donnington/Silverstone on the back of either Ron or Leon Haslam, you'll be amazed at how smoothly they ride and how fooking fast they go with lean angles and corner speeds people like us can only imagine - and all the while they're reading MCN and riding with only one hand on the bars 

I'll put this here just for you to have a watch. I'm not trying to argue or anything, we are all entitled to our own opinions and obviously they differ.

https://youtu.be/JgcBkvlE6lo

I'm sure there are plenty of books and videos that have a counter argument but you cant argue with the fact that using a conventional braking technique in a 30mph hair pin (as in off the brakes and back on the throttle), the bike goes down (unless your a very competent rider and dont panic) where as using trail braking he was able to enter at 70mph and easily make it round. He even says he almost found it impossible to bin the bike.
Also worth noting that this was with ABS switched off.

Like I say I'm not trying to argue with anyone I'm just displaying the info from my point of view :-)

I don't think we're arguing Dude, but it's how we're hearing/interpreting what is said in the video - my take on what was said is slightly different to yours in a couple of key areas - all down to our differing views on the context of the video. My view is that he's using this to demonstrate that when encountering an unexpected issue/obstruction mid-corner, it is possible to trail-brake safely when leaned over, when done properly, to help avoid a crash and hopefully the following comments explain how context can create different "understandings" - must admit this is why I prefer to do classes where you have the opportunity to discuss comments and techniques with the instructors, to make sure the context is clear.

At the beginning, Chris chooses to go into the hairpin at 30mph - it's not the fastest he can go in, or the fastest he can go around the corner using his normal approach - it's just an arbitrary speed to demonstrate the point and he does the typical type of trail braking that happens with an average rider on the road, to see how easy it is to get it wrong (very easy, it seems) - he doesn't follow the "brake before you turn" approach to get the right speed for the corner, he just deliberately brakes hard mid corner at that speed (visible by the way the forks dip before the front tyre breaks away) - and he crashes, or would do if the bike didn't have outriggers.

When he tries to trail-brake "properly", he deliberately goes into the corner much faster and by finding the traction limits by pushing the bike/tyres to their limits, with the benefit of outriggers, he ultimately finds out he can get round the corner at the 70mph speed, but only after a lot of front wheel tucks, which on a normal bike would all have been crashes.

Nowhere does he say that 30 mph is the fastest he can get round the corner using his normal riding technique, nor does he say he couldn't go even faster using trail braking (he probably could) - the speeds were chosen to demonstrate the different outcomes between "normal" rider trail-braking and the outcome after you've had the opportunity to practice it a lot on a bike you can't crash.

At the end of the video he quite clearly says that unless you are smooth on the brakes and know exactly what you are doing (and basically are an "expert) "stay away from it, you do not want to brake in the middle of a turn". He also says "don't try this at home" - he had the benefit of the outriggers to save him and the bike, and no oncoming traffic.

The key point I took away from this video was that Chris was saying that IF you encounter a problem during a turn, you'd be surprised how much you CAN brake while leaned over, if you brake gently and skilfully and it CAN be a useful skill to master, but under normal circumstances I take on board his final warning "don't try this at home".

After watching that video, I'm tempted to find a school which has outrigger bikes to try and practice the technique, but on normal roads, with debris, changing road surfaces and grip levels, rain etc, I'd keep it as an emergency tool/skill.

Quote from: Steve3351 on 22 June 2019, 01:05:37 pm

I think we have established that changing down and using engine braking on the approach to a bend, and then trail braking into the curve is a good practice...

I disagree about "trail braking", especially if the road is wet or potentially slippery. It might be a good technique on a race track, but there you don't have to worry about on-coming traffic...

My advice is to get your braking done *before* you turn into the bend and stay away from the front brake, but it's your life and your choice.

Quote

the problem I find is that u have to quickly switch from front brake to throttle at the apex, which is tricky....some recommend using only two fingers on the brake..but I don't find that easy

If I'm riding in traffic at low speeds, I'm almost always two-finger braking with my index and middle finger on the brake lever and my ring finger and little finger wrapped around the throttle.

What are you finding difficult about it? If it's the reach, try getting yourself a set of adjustable clutch and brake levers from eBay. there's plenty of Chinese ones on there which I and other Foccers use.

To set them, what I do is to set my hand for two-finger braking, then adjust them such that, at full squeeze, they don't quite squash my fingers on the throttle.

But I wouldn't use two-finger braking on a bend at speed, again, it might work for racing, but it's not so great on the open road...

Sorry Grahammm & Dude, I have to disagree, trail braking into a bend is not a good thing. I agree with your comment Grahammm of getting the braking done before you hit your turn in point.

Regarding the braking to the apex comment - I've never been taught to brake to the apex and then apply throttle  at the apex and I really think that's a bad approach. Most racers are already on the throttle before the apex. The apex isn't where you aim to stop braking, the turn-in point for the corner is basically where you stop braking.

There's an excellent section in the book "Twist of The Wrist" by Keith Code which explains this clearly (there's a lot of other tecchy stuff in the book that's hard to read too though) - Keith Code founded the California Superbike School and has taught many of the world's top riders over the past 30 years and the first time I did a CSS racing school day, they taught it exactly as it says in the book and still do.

Remain won't need to demand it, if we stay, I gather we're already committed to it under the terms of the Treaty of Lisbon.

As a separate issue, as much as I detest Mrs May, the process of buying a car last week had me thinking about our negotiation position on Brexit with the EU and I actually felt a tinge of sympathy (not a lot, because I think she's a bit of a devious toad in general  ) if I parallel this process, the following is how I would be approaching the car-buying deal

I start by him telling the dealer I want to buy a car and they'll need to be keen to get my business, otherwise I won't be buying one from them.

As we're talking, my wife says to the salesman, "but remember, he doesn't have the final say, because I don't want to buy the same car as him and I have to approve everything he agrees with you before he can sign up to buying the car. Oh and by the way, I won't do that unless you sell him the Paintwork Protection extra, the Extended Warranty extra, the GAP insurance extra and the Puncture Protection insurance extra....oh and by the way, I don't trust him to negotiate on my behalf..........Oh and by the way, if he doesn't give you what you want, I'll divorce him and get somebody else to come and buy the car who thinks like I do".

Does anybody really think I'm being supported in my negotiation position by my wife, and am I going to be able to get a good deal from the salesman ??

Anyone who approached a deal like that in the business world (or real world, outside of politics), would be a laughing stock with zero credibility.

Now I can see why getting anything other than a shit deal out of the EU whilst our Parliament undermines our national negotiating position, is living in cloud cuckoo land.


Whether we like it or not, taking away the threat from the salesman that you will not buy a car from him is commercial suicide, just like taking away the "No Deal" option is commercial and political suicide for our nation in any Brexit negotiations.

Great news that Weevi. 

My 98 defiantly had Bridgstones on it - didn't buy the bike new but they were the original can not be sure as to the code

Your 98 was "defiant" about its tyres Mr Sharp  . Don't think mines ever been defiant about anything !

Hello, and welcome. Could do with a bit more info - Is there an idle speed adjuster/does it idle at a standstill, does it pick up as soon as you open the throttle ?


Cheers.