Bar End Weights

[bigbluebear]

How important is it to get the handle bar end weights correct. I have Renthal 773's and the difference in the weight of the bar ends is pretty vast from standard. Maybe its just me, but the handling seems a bit odd at the front end, I've just fitted a new Nitron back shock and new K-Tech front springs hoping that this would change the behaviour but it hasn't......now thinking it's the bar ends.....any advice welcome

[Falcon 269]

New shock, new fork springs (who did the install, BTW?) and you think it's bar ends causing handling weirdness?  No way.

Only thing that bar ends should influence is vibes.  Maybe the different bar width/height is a factor but I'd start by making sure that the new suspension is properly fitted and dialled in correctly.

[bigbluebear]

New shock, new fork springs (who did the install, BTW?) and you think it's bar ends causing handling weirdness?  No way.

Only thing that bar ends should influence is vibes.  Maybe the different bar width/height is a factor but I'd start by making sure that the new suspension is properly fitted and dialled in correctly.

I bought the bike a over a year ago and the front tyre needed replaced as it had worn out more on one side that the other. I thought this might have been down to the camber in the road. I did the usual HPI checks etc and no history of accidents or recorded damage.
 
I nearly changed up to a Gen 2 a while back (you may remember the thread Gen1 V Gen2) but decided against it and kept it. My bike was tested at that stage for a trade-in and the mechanic quoted that it was "all  over the place" and didn't feel quite right. At that point I thought about the suspension so hence the reasons to change the shock and springs when I could afford it.
 
Now that work has been done it still feels exactly the same and that has made me think of what else it could be. Maybe the bike has been in an accident, but never recorded or reported to the insurance company and "fixed up" but with a twisted frame, forks or whatever???.....I have to say the bike is in immaculate condition, practically spotless with no signs of any scratches never mind accident damage.
 
It has got me puzzzled as all the work that I had have done has been carried out by a very highly commended mechanic.....and he too is puzzled
 
 
 

[Exupnut]

Any other gen 1 owners in glasgow bear? I think u shud let another gen1 owner ride it vice versa and see what u think/they think. Can u go into more detail about why the bike dont handle proper?


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[bigbluebear]

Any other gen 1 owners in glasgow bear? I think u shud let another gen1 owner ride it vice versa and see what u think/they think. Can u go into more detail about why the bike dont handle proper?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Don't personally know of any but this thread may throw a few up.
 
When cornering and leaning in I feel like the bike is unstable and it "falls in" too quickly and I have to sit up to correct it....it doesn't flow if you know what I mean. The bike is now back with the mechanic and he will do some further tests on it.

[The Male Whale]

What tyres and pressures are you running???
 
Whale

[bigbluebear]

What tyres and pressures are you running???
 
Whale

Two new Pirelli Diablo Strada's, before that Metzeler Roadtec Z6....don't know the pressures as they were fitted by my mechanic

[noggythenog]

Just a thought but do you know if the bike's been jacked up with smaller wishbones,


When i jacked my bike up it turned in allot quicker.not likely the problem but jus throwin it out there


My bike actually handles like yours at the moment by i put it down to the squared off rear tyre ive got & i look forward to changing it.but youve had this with different tyres.

[bigbluebear]

Just a thought but do you know if the bike's been jacked up with smaller wishbones,


When i jacked my bike up it turned in allot quicker.not likely the problem but jus throwin it out there


My bike actually handles like yours at the moment by i put it down to the squared off rear tyre ive got & i look forward to changing it.but youve had this with different tyres.

Yes, its been jacked up but not by much by the difference in wishbones, was like that when I bought it.

[purplebear7]

    Hi,    I am not a Mechanic by a very long way .. so I'm not much help on that track.
 
However .. seems to me you asking for a hell of a lot from the guys in here if you can't answer their questions 
 
They'll need all the details and info if they are going to make any worthwhile recommendations. So:
 
Who is your ''very highly commended mechanic'' .. what qualifications or experience does he have?
(As I understand it .. sorting forks to work for you is a bit more involved than pushing a spring down a pipe  )
 
What pressures did he put in the tyres, and how long ago was that?  You might (should) check them yourself  .
 
How Heavy are you mate (in full kit)?  On a Bike size does matter .. really .. and your name is BIG Blue Bear  .
 
Any chance of talking to the previous owner?  Who did you buy the Bike from .. Private or Dealer?
 
And so on .. if your problems can be sorted .. this is the best place to start .. but the guys need something to work with   
 
Stay Safe Buddy .. don't go round any more corners just yet       Trev    (Also a Big Bear .. Polar Clan)
 
 
 

[bludclot]

if this was my bike i would be concerned.


i suggest checking everything that you can yourself. my list would be something like:


- tyres - condition and pressures. these need to be spot on for perfect handling.
- wheels for trueness - get each wheel up and spin them with a datum point against each rim
- wheel alignment - using two long straight edges or a laser if possible
- forks - straightness and damping action. i'd get them out and make sure that each of them is straight and that they feel and react the same when compressed by hand and let go
- yokes - i could only really perform a visual check on these as i don't have a jig to put them in but i'd be putting straight edges against them and assessing as best i could while the forks are out
- frame straightness - as best i can with my long straight edges


if it still handled oddly then i'd be putting it back to standard and moving it on!




as an aside i find it incredible that any owner spends (quite obviously some serious) money on suspension upgrades but doesn't know what pressures are in the tyres. even a cheap gauge is an absolutely essential piece of bike kit. it may not read perfectly accurately but at least allows for consistency. bike tyres are safety critical items!

[bigbluebear]

   Hi,    I am not a Mechanic by a very long way .. so I'm not much help on that track.
 
However .. seems to me you asking for a hell of a lot from the guys in here if you can't answer their questions 
 
They'll need all the details and info if they are going to make any worthwhile recommendations. So:
 
Who is your ''very highly commended mechanic'' .. what qualifications or experience does he have?
(As I understand it .. sorting forks to work for you is a bit more involved than pushing a spring down a pipe  )
 
What pressures did he put in the tyres, and how long ago was that?  You might (should) check them yourself  .
 
How Heavy are you mate (in full kit)?  On a Bike size does matter .. really .. and your name is BIG Blue Bear  .
 
Any chance of talking to the previous owner?  Who did you buy the Bike from .. Private or Dealer?
 
And so on .. if your problems can be sorted .. this is the best place to start .. but the guys need something to work with   
 
Stay Safe Buddy .. don't go round any more corners just yet       Trev    (Also a Big Bear .. Polar Clan)

Thanks PB,
 
I am doing my best to answer their questions and I'll do my best to answer yours.
 
All my work gets done by Dynotech Ecosse in Glasgow and they are very experienced and fully qualified and time served. They do a lot work for the racing circuit guys up here including the Scottish champion. They also do work for Kevin Carmichael who is a former world champion stunt rider, now currently with Triumph....his comments to me were they are the best bike mechanics in Scotland.
 
I will check the pressures but its always behaved that way no matter what tyre and when they were renewed.
 
I am "Big Boned" 6'3" and 17st. The rear shock and fork springs have been ordered to suit my weight and riding style.
 
Private sale and the previous owner I don't have his contact details but could go and knock on his door if I remember where the house is.
 

[bigbluebear]

Bludclot...comments and tyre pressure noted 

[sadlonelygit]

surely RE are able to see if the frame is twisted. it would fail the mot usually if things are out of kilter.
don't accept their word for it, check/ask what springs have been fitted. linear or progressive? what weight oil have they used and what airgap etc. have they reset the damping or left it as you gave it to them. what sag are they using?
it shouldn't fall into corners with firmer front springs. i'm about your weight and had mine jacked up at the back and dropped 15mm at the front, now that tipped in quickly!
TBH the tyres you're using are 10yo touring tyres, not ideal to explore the limits of new suspension

[The Male Whale]

At the risk of straining at the gnat, I can only echo the above.
 
It is vital that the simple things are right before looking at other probs.
 
"When walking down the road and hearing hoofbeats expect to see horses when you turn and not zebras."
 
The tyres are not the best but should be fine if they are new (unless they are very old stock and dried out) and at the correct pressures.
 
At 6' 3" and 19 stone myself, I know that decent suspension on mine made a world of difference and the bike handled brilliantly. Yours should be capable of the same.
 
I would most certainly ditch the jack up kit as a matter of urgency, I am guessing you had the suspension built for your weight and riding style but did not say the bike was jacked up?
 
The jack up kit will make the rising rate ratio's alter and your carefully designed suspension will then not work to it's full potential. It would be like putting a good shock of the correct setting for you that you had on another bike on - the shock is "good" but not in that application.
 
We will get to the bottom of it......
 
Whale

[AyJay]

I really enjoy these detective type investigations. Very Dan Brown. Can't wait to see how this one pans out.

Weight shouldn't be that much of an issue, plenty of us big fellas on Fazers and same goes for jack up kits, but it's interesting that the Dynotec guy said it was all over the place and couldn't offer a suggestion. That's really odd and it sounds like it won't be something simple.

If it's done around 20k miles, the rear wheel bearings might be on the way out. Yamaha had a duff batch judging by how many fail around that mileage (mine's done 80k on a replacement bearing, so they were definitely a duff batch). Having said that, I'm sure your mechanic would have checked that.

Other things I'm sure he'd have checked - headstock and swing arm bearings, but again, you'll be the first with knackered swingarm bearings, and one that's often overlooked is whether the markings on the swingarm are misleading - it might just be that the wheels a bit skew whiff. Does it feel better on left or right corners?

That's also a good check if you suspect a bent frame. Fazer frames are steel so it should be possible to straighten it if it's a bit bent. All is not lost, we'll crack this Da Vinci Code of a bike yet!

[ghostbiker]

If you can't find a local focer to ride it then find a dealer that has a gen 1 and test ride it. Will give you a rough idea how they feel. It might just be the way it is. Though I doubt it as it sounds like your mech thinks its wrong to.

[macmivvi]

maybe its just you .

If frame or forks were damaged /twisted it would have a prefrence which side it was falling into.

Is it a lack of riding time and what are you comparing this handling to,what were you riding before?

From memory the Strada will drop into corners bit quicker than a Z6 and as suggested bar width /height may also contribute but you say its always been this way before suspension and tyre change so you can discount them.
Does this only happen in slow speed corners or at any speed?

You are welcome to try mine . I'm in N.E.Fife

[AdieR]

Are you running one up / two up / loaded / unloaded?
Does it happen at all speeds or a particular speed range?
Does it happen on all roads? My 600 feels like it squirming at the back on a particular bend on a particular road about 5 miles from home; it's rock-steady anywhere else.

[bigbluebear]

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions, here is some info on questions asked.
 
First things first, as suggested I will get rid of the jack up kit as this was not mentioned when ordering the Nitron rear shock. This was only specified against my weight. I will get the frame, forks and wheel alignment checked along with headstock and swing arm bearings.
 
The fork springs are K Tech linear 95Kg. I will find out the oil used and air gap and find out if the damping has been reset.
 
Bike falls more into left hand more than the right. This was evident when I first got the bike as thats where the front tyre wear was.
 
Only ride solo with no luggage or additional load.
 
I know the tyres aren't great but they were new when fitted and have only done 500 miles on them. Tyre pressures as recommended in the manual and verified by mechanic.
 
Wheel bearings are fine as I got the wheels powder coated over the winter and checks were done.
 
Bike is a 2004 has done 24k miles.
 
My previous bike was a Fazer 600 and the handling was different class, even for someone my size, and I know as its smaller and lighter its more "flickable"....but difference is vast. Been riding for well over 20 years and had a variety of bikes in style and size so I pretty much know how it should be.
 
I will keep you posted on the above and if its made any difference.
 
Cheers
 
BBB
 

[sadlonelygit]

The fork springs are K Tech linear 95Kg.

there's your problem.........should be 0.95kg/mm
that sounds ball park (plush) for your GVM. you have to remember to use alot more rebound with firmer springs.........because they're firmer and rebound more! and a bit less compression. get the sag set next then you can start fiddling with damping settings.
a nice new notebook might be in order as well, to jot down all your settings and what you think.

[bigbluebear]

The fork springs are K Tech linear 95Kg.

there's your problem.........should be 0.95kg/mm
that sounds ball park (plush) for your GVM. you have to remember to use alot more rebound with firmer springs.........because they're firmer and rebound more! and a bit less compression. get the sag set next then you can start fiddling with damping settings.
a nice new notebook might be in order as well, to jot down all your settings and what you think.

I see your point on me missing my point

[noggythenog]

Hey bear, i can see how all of the individual problems are making you think but without knowing the bikes history they could all be totally innocent


For instance-the front tyre wearing on one side, was this the right hand side???,if so then did the previous owner merely do the same journey every day in a big town or city with lots of roundabouts,we are creatures of habit,you go to a new town like milton keynes or glenrothes & all there is is roundabouts.


I really think getting another foccer insured for the day on your bike would be worth its weight in gold, im sure the mechanic has a good idea by the sounds of things but then had he just come off a repsol honda or some other dream machine,even still im sure he knows his stuff but someone else that rides a gen 1 every day will know far more i reckon,equally you could try blag a ride on another gen 1 to check the difference.

[The Male Whale]

Wheel bearings are normally removed and replaced with new when powder coating (or at least they are in MY shop when we do them....) as the wheels are subjected to quite a lot of heat the fix the powder coating and this will not help the bearings one little bit.
 
I am happy the jack up kit is coming off, if you had the Nitron built for your weight, the "correct" spring will hold the bike at the proper ride height and remove the usual need for a jack up which is to support the saggy arse of the bike which the bike gets with the standard puny spring.
 
The shock AND the jack up kit will have the back end a tad high and cause her to steer quite quickly - maybe too quickly.
 
Whale

[ghostbiker]

yup both times i had wheels powdercoated i removed and replaced the bearings. the heat they would be subjected to would not only possably warp them but the grease would drip out and screw the powdercoating up i would think.

i replaced my rear with a nitron and loved it, i also run a jack up kit but when i fitted the jack up i had to take about 5 rings of preload of and play alot with the damping to find an aceptable feel. still not as good as it was before i fitted the jack up kit but at least my hips dont hurt now.
i also have a full Ktec front for rework. not sure off hand what springs they fitted off hand as its all in the papperwork though. i also dropped the forks 10mm.

so reowrked front forks by ktec
10 mm lower on front
nitron rear shock set up for no jack up kit but altered by me..... badly :P
jack up kit on rear
flat bars
ps3's fitted front and back running at 3-4psi under recomended on front and recomended on rear

i find the bike a little unstable at very tight low speed turns like jcts. the bike just falls away
but on the road with roundabouts and bends its rock steady. quicker steering than before by a long way but still stable.