Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: butthead on 18 June 2020, 10:12:32 am
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So I thought id share my experience with you as an example of necessity is the mother of invention or in truth borne out of a cock up on my part.
I have a fzs600 2001 its really my winter hack bike , done a few oil changes but on my last one just over a year back I messed up and overtightened the sump plug, resulting in some stripped threads as it weeps but no more than weeps oil past the threads, were talking 3-4 teaspoons over 10-14 days so perfectly livaeble with for a winter hack. I had the idea of helicoil but you cant helicoil in situ and if you are taking the sump pan off may as well buy a second hand sump pan with plug from a breaker . So that was my origional option.
Trouble is ,as you know, you cant take the sump off without removing the exhaust, ok if your header bolts are going to play ball.
Mine certainly werent.
Mine had clearly been off once before at least and fought back in the process duly snapping off as was evident by the shortened stumps and motley collection of ugly nuts and studs, so I was not keen to mess with that !
So how else can you do an oil change without draining ?
Well if you take off the cluch cover , underneath the clutch drum are two slots about 9 mm slots around 20mm long, these allow fresh oil put in to drain back into the sump.
If you can lean the bike over the opposite way to the side stand and about the same lean as on the side stand all the oil comes to that side of the bike.
I got a 12v syphon pump for oil and used 8 mm clear pipe and using the two slots fed the pipe into the sump and moved it around as much as you can and syphoned 3.5 litres of old oil out the same as the manual says to put in following oil & filter change , of cousre I changed the filter too.
Its a bit of a pfaff setting the bike up to do it but its a once a year job and just as sucesful as traditional drain , I got the same qty of oil out as I would have, got to live with the origional sump weep but a weep is all it is.
Just thought id show how I overcame my initial idiocy with the origional overtightening.
Taking off the exhaust to change sump pan would have proded the “satan of stud bolts” im certain to shear opening the worse of all jobs to tackle.with rusty weak already stumps of header bolts !
Leave well alone !
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Well done. I think we all have various bits of wood that have become part of the essential Fazer tool kit. (along with a bag of swear words )
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Mate you could have saved all that faff, car vacuum oil changer, through the oil filler cap. To lean the bike over to the right, apply and secure the front brake lever and tied downs or quality tow rope will do, through the top frame/top yoke and onto a a secure point on a wall, works a treat ;)
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Couldn’t you fit an oversize tapered sump plug in situ? There might be a bit of swarf but should be able to get most of it out with a flush.
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Mate you could have saved all that faff, car vacuum oil changer, through the oil filler cap. To lean the bike over to the right, apply and secure the front brake lever and tied downs or quality tow rope will do, through the top frame/top yoke and onto a a secure point on a wall, works a treat ;)
its kind of what i have done really pretty much what youve suggested but you need to get all of the old oil out for sure, even if you laid the bike flat on its side the oil will fill the clutch case to a degree the ony faff i did on top of your suggestion was to remove a cover 8 bolts. other than that its the same.
this at least lets me get a pipe in to the sump pan wriggle it around so i know for sure its all out , i think the extra 8 bolts are worth it to be certain its fully drained.
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Couldn’t you fit an oversize tapered sump plug in situ? There might be a bit of swarf but should be able to get most of it out with a flush.
there would be swarf for sure and you need to be sure when your doing 80mph + that the swarf isnt about to give your engine a seize, how would know it was all out? its a guess even post flush. this is a safer way around it.
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was to remove a cover 8 bolts.
That's the whole point you don't have to remove the clutch cover :rolleyes
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What about just putting some ptft tape on the thread, being carefull not to get it on the engine end - just keep it on the nut end.A thought on getting all the oil out when - you cant get all the oil out is to syphon what you can through the filler and the top up with the cheapest you can find and use that as a wash then syphon that out along with the remaining old stuff.
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was to remove a cover 8 bolts.
That's the whole point you don't have to remove the clutch cover :rolleyes
how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
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Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.
If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.
OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.
I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?
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how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
You're confusing, sucking with pouring mate, it matters not about the casing lip. ;) If you lean the bike over as I've described and suck out via the the filler, you get it all out or as much as using the sump plug. In fact if you tip the bike backwards slightly you get a little more than draining out the sump plug.
Your issue with a buggered sump isn't a one off, I know of 2 bikes with the same issue. One has rounded off the hex and utterly buggered whats remains trying to remove it with screwdriver and a hammer :rolleyes the only way now to remove without risking damaging the sump is to remove the sump. The other is like yours stripped and he's bonded the sump plug in due to same issues of exhaust. Both don't want to pay to have the sump removed, both have had several oil changes as mentioned above.
This is only a 'get around', that said for many older type bikes the vacuum oil removal works fine, some newer engines and those with dual sump plugs it doesn't.
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Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
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Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
That's why i was saying it only needs nipping up. Plus due to the location of it it's the easiest thing to do.
In the highly unlikely event it was to loosen (which it won't) then you would see oil on the floor so just nip it up again, but it just will not happen anyway.
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Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
Thought the idea of a crush washer was to help seal as it spreads out -- ?
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Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
It just might :) that said, he's saying the threads are stripped and there is load on the washer 40 odd Nm
No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
That's why i was saying it only needs nipping up.
No mate, the threads don't seal the washer does and there is load on it, by definition it's a washer, washer's spread load in this case 40 odd Nm forming the seal. Also there're 2 types of sump bolt/plug washer you'll find, 1 is the crush type i.e. it requires an amount of crush (40 odd Nm) for it to from a mating/sealing surface and should be used only once, 2 flat type, which is soft steel, copper or aluminium, some older bikes had fibre, the flat type hardens in use, can be reused but should be anneled, but there's a limit. Fibre is not used these days, especially where different metals are used ally sump, steel bolt or vice versa as the expand and contract at different rates, then leak. Old Brit bikes and cars!
Both crush/flat types will leak if over tighten i.e. nipping up, yes once may be, but if it's leaking at the correct torque the washer had it and/or the sump mating surface is damaged. Reuse of the washer and nipping up is what causes this chaps problem in the fist place i.e. washer gets distorted, leaks, nip up, mating surfaces get damaged it leaks, nip it up threads stretch, less torque on the washer it leaks, nip it up threads strip :rolleyes
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Thought the idea of a crush washer was to help seal as it spreads out -- ?
Yep :agree
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Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
It just might :) that said, he's saying the threads are stripped and there is load on the washer 40 odd Nm
No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
That's why i was saying it only needs nipping up.
No mate, the threads don't seal the washer does and there is load on it, by definition it's a washer, washer's spread load in this case 40 odd Nm forming the seal. Also there're 2 types of sump bolt/plug washer you'll find, 1 is the crush type i.e. it requires an amount of crush (40 odd Nm) for it to from a mating/sealing surface and should be used only once, 2 flat type, which is soft steel, copper or aluminium, some older bikes had fibre, the flat type hardens in use, can be reused but should be anneled, but there's a limit. Fibre is not used these days, especially where different metals are used ally sump, steel bolt or vice versa as the expand and contract at different rates, then leak. Old Brit bikes and cars!
Both crush/flat types will leak if over tighten i.e. nipping up, yes once may be, but if it's leaking at the correct torque the washer had it and/or the sump mating surface is damaged. Reuse of the washer and nipping up is what causes this chaps problem in the fist place i.e. washer gets distorted, leaks, nip up, mating surfaces get damaged it leaks, nip it up threads stretch, less torque on the washer it leaks, nip it up threads strip :rolleyes
Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher. Nipping up works just fine on this particular bolt, as long as you're not heavy handed, which i'm not due to working with sensitive screws on film cameras at work.
It's blindingly obvious that the main cause of stripping the thread on the sump is caused by over tightening it, mostly because you can't get a socket on it (or normal torque wrench), and it's in a slightly awkward place which results in people wrenching hard on a ring spanner or even giving it a tap with a hammer too, which after a few times will take its toll on the sump thread and the hex head as well if not careful.
There's not too much science behind all this, it's just a hole in a bowl with a bolt in it stopping the oil from coming out.
I will agree that a crush washer in this particular case would not be a greatest idea at all due to the slightly extra force needed to crush it which would stress out dodgy threads even more.
Personally i would only ever use the flat washer type due to the mentioned sealing properties.
I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.
Maybe your version of nipping up is being heavy handed, but my version is not.
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how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
You're confusing, sucking with pouring mate, it matters not about the casing lip. ;) If you lean the bike over as I've described and suck out via the the filler, you get it all out or as much as using the sump plug. In fact if you tip the bike backwards slightly you get a little more than draining out the sump plug.
Your issue with a buggered sump isn't a one off, I know of 2 bikes with the same issue. One has rounded off the hex and utterly buggered whats remains trying to remove it with screwdriver and a hammer :rolleyes the only way now to remove without risking damaging the sump is to remove the sump. The other is like yours stripped and he's bonded the sump plug in due to same issues of exhaust. Both don't want to pay to have the sump removed, both have had several oil changes as mentioned above.
This is only a 'get around', that said for many older type bikes the vacuum oil removal works fine, some newer engines and those with dual sump plugs it doesn't.
fair enough mate , youve clearly done this a couple of times before, so i will next time see if i can do as youre doing then and leave the clutch cover on, as you say to lean the bike back a bit also makes sense as the sump pan has baffle walls and those will stop some oil getting to the places you need to to drain but by slightly lifting back it will allow it flow through to where you need to get at it via the filler. more than wiling to try your way as you say its a litle less work.
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how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
You're confusing, sucking with pouring mate, it matters not about the casing lip. ;) If you lean the bike over as I've described and suck out via the the filler, you get it all out or as much as using the sump plug. In fact if you tip the bike backwards slightly you get a little more than draining out the sump plug.
Your issue with a buggered sump isn't a one off, I know of 2 bikes with the same issue. One has rounded off the hex and utterly buggered whats remains trying to remove it with screwdriver and a hammer :rolleyes the only way now to remove without risking damaging the sump is to remove the sump. The other is like yours stripped and he's bonded the sump plug in due to same issues of exhaust. Both don't want to pay to have the sump removed, both have had several oil changes as mentioned above.
This is only a 'get around', that said for many older type bikes the vacuum oil removal works fine, some newer engines and those with dual sump plugs it doesn't.
fair enough mate , you've clearly done this a couple of times before, so i will next time see if i can do as youre doing then and leave the clutch cover on, as you say to lean the bike back a bit also makes sense as the sump pan has baffle walls and those will stop some oil getting to the places you need to to drain but by slightly lifting back it will allow it flow through to where you need to get at it via the filler. more than wiling to try your way as you say its a litle less work.
There you go. :)
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Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.
If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.
OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.
I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?
actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts. now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads, therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.
also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying . personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
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Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.
If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.
OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.
I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?
actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts. now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads, therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.
also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying . personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
Have you replaced the bolt for an OEM one?
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Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher.
That's your choice mate :rolleyes But your way is bad practice and at some point it's going to leak, when it does just pray you've not damaged the mating surface and/or stretched the threads as it will. New OE washer is £2.60 ish last I bought one, or copper £5 for 10.
I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.
Nope, crows foot spanner ;)
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Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.
If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.
OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.
I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?
actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts. now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads, therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.
also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying . personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
Have you replaced the bolt for an OEM one?
yes once the mag bolt didnt feel right, removed it put back old OEM on, new washer, did it up as much as i dared and decided to leave it alone, once its stripped its only going to get worse taking on/off. ultimatley id prefer a new pan and bolt but that isnt going to happen with the rusty header studs and nuts on the exhaust, so this is how it will stay now, but as i have found an alternative way to oil change and adopting gnashers version , its fine really. the advantage of sucking out with a pump is you can put the old oil straight into a contaner via pump pipe rather than a messy drain tray that you end up having to have the side stand sitting in too ,plus emptying the drain tray cleanly, so in a way its a better way than normal.
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Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher.
That's your choice mate :rolleyes But your way is bad practice and at some point it's going to leak, when it does just pray you've not damaged the mating surface and/or stretched the threads as it will. New OE washer is £2.60 ish last I bought one, or copper £5 for 10.
I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.
Nope, crows foot spanner ;)
I just noticed you can get a couple of washers for about £2.60 on Ebay. :)
That's very weird you should mention a 'crows foot' spanner because i stumbled on them early this morning (not even sure how?) and i was trying to think of a scenario where they would be useful?
Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?
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Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?
The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.
If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.
OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.
I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.
Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.
I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.
Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?
actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts. now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads, therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.
also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying . personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
Have you replaced the bolt for an OEM one?
yes once the mag bolt didnt feel right, removed it put back old OEM on, new washer, did it up as much as i dared and decided to leave it alone, once its stripped its only going to get worse taking on/off. ultimatley id prefer a new pan and bolt but that isnt going to happen with the rusty header studs and nuts on the exhaust, so this is how it will stay now, but as i have found an alternative way to oil change and adopting gnashers version , its fine really. the advantage of sucking out with a pump is you can put the old oil straight into a contaner via pump pipe rather than a messy drain tray that you end up having to have the side stand sitting in too ,plus emptying the drain tray cleanly, so in a way its a better way than normal.
Obviously i don't know how badly stripped it feels, but there's a small chance that a new bolt might help? By no means definite of course, but even a fraction of better thread might be enough to bite more?
I'm just having a look about now, it took me a while but i found one at a really decent price from some obscure place when i bought my replacement.
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actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts.
If the bolt/sump plug is still in there and is short as you say, the thread above the shorten bolt should still be serviceable? If so and you can remove the bolt and use a new OE, with a little silicon on the thread.
personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
Most over tighten all bolts, when you consider you can put about 100flbs /135Nm on a 5mm cap head with a allen key, think what you can do with a 17mm spanner :eek The 40Nm is to allow for the crush effect, that's the issue with reusing washers, once crushed even flat washers compress hence why they're soft, the same torque is now stressing/stretching the threads. As a rule the sump bolt/plug needs only about 1/3 turn with a spanner no more, and that's with a new washer.
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possibly darrsi, but theres also a risk you could make it worse too.
for me its such a small weep that a once year pump out is as i say a less messy way of changing the oil so im happry to live with it.
infact happy to have found this way of being able to oil change at all, otherwise would have had to tackle the exhaust issue !!
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Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?
Yes if you get the correct spanner, you may need a socket drive converter/reducer depending on what size torque wrench drive and extension bar you use.
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Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?
Yes if you get the correct spanner, you may need a socket drive converter/reducer depending on what size torque wrench drive and extension bar you use.
This is good to know, i'll have a look next time i get the bike out. Plus i don't think i'm too far off an oil change either. :thumbup
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I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.
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possibly darrsi, but theres also a risk you could make it worse too.
for me its such a small weep that a once year pump out is as i say a less messy way of changing the oil so im happry to live with it.
infact happy to have found this way of being able to oil change at all, otherwise would have had to tackle the exhaust issue !!
Even though these other 2 bikes I've mentioned about have your issue and have gone through a few oil changers. I still wouldn't recommend you do it long term and stated it's a get around. You will get the vast majority of the oil out if you tip the bike enough, even if you don't you'll still replacing 80-90% plus of the oil and if you change it within the service specs your be fine.
All that said the sump bolt leek will slowly get worse, hence 1 of the others having their sump bolt bonded in. As I told those other two owners, you need to either replace the sump bolt with a OE using what's left of the thread if possible or get the sump repaired/ replaced.
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I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.
Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads. The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads.
That's why you can use thread lock ;)
It's why you can get these coated bleed nipples, in an attempt to seal them so you can pump the lever with the nipple open and theoretically not draw air in past the threads. They don't work after the first go, if then I would recommend them.
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I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.
Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads. The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads.
That's why you can use thread lock ;)
It's why you can get these coated bleed nipples, in an attempt to seal them so you can pump the lever with the nipple open and theoretically not draw air in past the threads. They don't work after the first go, if then I would recommend them.
"...The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole..."
Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean? :'(
I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again. :groan
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This bolt is 2 threads shorter than an OEM version, but double the amount of the other magnetic one in my previous photo. Plus it has a magnet added.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RACE-TITANIUM-MAGNETIC-DRILLED-SUMP-DRAIN-BOLT-YAMAHA-FZS600-FAZER-1997-1999/273744787602?hash=item3fbc75f892:g:MLkAAOSwfgRb61UG (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RACE-TITANIUM-MAGNETIC-DRILLED-SUMP-DRAIN-BOLT-YAMAHA-FZS600-FAZER-1997-1999/273744787602?hash=item3fbc75f892:g:MLkAAOSwfgRb61UG)
It's #11 in the drawing for an OEM plug.
https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/OIL-COOLER/20_2045-2045/B9/0/24057 (https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/OIL-COOLER/20_2045-2045/B9/0/24057)
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Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean? :'(
I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again. :groan
No, can't see why this was a problem. The rear caliper pin threads aren't blind holes, the holes where the pins go through into the other body aren't either. Either the pins are bent, threads knackered due to over tightening, poor servicing or your torque wrench is naff. As with everything you get what you pay for with tools, there're many cheap torque wrenches on the market, plus they need calibrating.
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I'm guessing it's #8 in the drawing, maybe Gnasher could confirm this? Unfortunately the postage nearly matches the item price, but with a washer you're looking at around £15.
https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/CRANKCASE/20_2045-2045/B13/0/24057 (https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/CRANKCASE/20_2045-2045/B13/0/24057)
No mate that's not the drain bolt, that's the oil pump pressure orifice test hole plug.
Here No 11 https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4162055/fzs600-fazer-5dm4-1999-070-a/oil-cooler (https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4162055/fzs600-fazer-5dm4-1999-070-a/oil-cooler)
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I'm guessing it's #8 in the drawing, maybe Gnasher could confirm this? Unfortunately the postage nearly matches the item price, but with a washer you're looking at around £15.
https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/CRANKCASE/20_2045-2045/B13/0/24057 (https://www.bike-parts-yam.com/yamaha-motorcycle/600-MOTO/2000/FAZER/FZS600/CRANKCASE/20_2045-2045/B13/0/24057)
No mate that's not the drain bolt, that's the oil pump pressure orifice test hole plug.
Here No 11 https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4162055/fzs600-fazer-5dm4-1999-070-a/oil-cooler (https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4162055/fzs600-fazer-5dm4-1999-070-a/oil-cooler)
Thought that didn't look right that's why i wanted you to check it.
I've adjusted my post above as it is available on that website.
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Like my rear caliper pad pin you mean? :'(
I think it's something daft like 10Nm, but i thought i'd do the right thing that day and use the torque wrench, with a tiny dot of Copper Grease on the thread.
Won't be doing that again. :groan
No, can't see why this was a problem. The rear caliper pin threads aren't blind holes, the holes where the pins go through into the other body aren't either. Either the pins are bent, threads knackered due to over tightening, poor servicing or your torque wrench is naff. As with everything you get what you pay for with tools, there're many cheap torque wrenches on the market, plus they need calibrating.
To be fair when i bought the bike years ago i only paid £800 for it and it was in a very sorry state.
It had basically been used and abused as a toy, which i obviously didn't know at the time, so i don't even want to think about the previous home maintenance that had been done on it.
I slowly worked my way through the whole bike finding and fixing problem after problem and the chances of this particular owner over tightening everything he touched is a massive possibility. So having simple things like a caliper pin strip a thread didn't really surprise me too much as i've found worse things in the past.
To give you an idea what i was dealing with, i changed the oil in the first few days, but i took out 4.5 litres of oil from the sump. :eek
It was that kind of stupidity that started alarm bells ringing straight away. :look
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How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.
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How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.
It wouldn't solve the leek mate.
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How about drilling through the sump bolt with it off the bike and adding a smaller bolt drain bolt through the middle. Could be done off the bike then just loctite the original one back in? So you end up essentially with a sleeved drain bolt.
yes thats an option i had in mind , known as a dowty bolt, im sure it would work but would take longer to drain and might not empty sump completley as its a bolt within a bolt so it will hold onto more oil than the bolt removed. plus the complication of holding the origional nut still whilst undoing the inesrted bolt at the same time and then same thing doing back up
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also gnasher, your point about the weep will ineviably get worse is true, so i will look to permanently stop it up with some bonding agent etc once it gets to the point where it is worse.
your other point about properly draining so that you are removing as much old oil as possible is also a very good point , which is exactly why you need to get as much out as possible, i definitley got 3.5 litres of old oil out, which is what the manual says oil & filetr 3.5 litres req .
however a dry engine following rebuild takes 4.2 litres. this must mean then that you can never remove the remaining old 0.7 litres from any style of oil drain so there is always .7l of old oil kicking around in your engine stuck in places that it cannot drain back to the sump . no way to remove 100% of all oil without disembly.
i think 3.5 is the max you can get out and just as long as thats what you can get out , this pump method is equal to a conventional drian. you cant drain anymore out than you can pump out.
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I am going to mention PTFE tape again
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re ptfe tape , yep its worth a try next oil change, along with a new bolt etc, but in the process of removing and retightening the threads may become worse as a result , then my weep could become a worse drip, then im worse off pushing me into a sump change. theres no way of pre knowing that outcome.
definitley worth a go if my current weep gets worse as it is , which ,one day its bound to , then ive nothing to loose
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I think it should be mentioned that Copper Grease messes with torque settings as well, although using engine oil keeps torque settings very accurate, but it will obviously depend on what job the nut/bolt is doing for this to be taken into consideration.
Not really mate no. As mentioned threads don't provide seals any grease or oil will be either pushed out or sit in the free space in the threads. The only time it's possible is when the bolt is going into a blind hole, but its very unusual as the grease/oil will escape past the threads.
Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off 600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.
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As said earlier ;)
use a new OE, with a little silicon on the thread.
PTFE, wont compress enough, and if the threads are damaged it could be the straw the broke the camels back so to speak, it wont take the heat very well and start leaking. Use the above mentioned, just make sure it's head gasket silicon sealant, not your bath stuff that wont take the heat either.
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[quote author=slappy link=topic=26267.msg316636#msg316636 date=1592587456
Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off 600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.
Get real fella and in your application these are specially cut threads to take that kind of pressure and are effectively blind holes working under extreme pressure, i.e. 600ftlbs of course grease isn't going to compress :rolleyes This is a bolt on a motorbike :rolleyes
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Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher.
That's your choice mate :rolleyes But your way is bad practice and at some point it's going to leak, when it does just pray you've not damaged the mating surface and/or stretched the threads as it will. New OE washer is £2.60 ish last I bought one, or copper £5 for 10.
I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.
Nope, crows foot spanner ;)
I just noticed you can get a couple of washers for about £2.60 on Ebay. :)
That's very weird you should mention a 'crows foot' spanner because i stumbled on them early this morning (not even sure how?) and i was trying to think of a scenario where they would be useful?
Are you saying there's enough room so you can use a torque wrench with with one of these ends on, because if so i will happily buy one right now just for that job alone?
Those crows foot spanners can be handy, just remember that to use your normally calibrated torque wrench with one that you have to put it on at 90 degrees to the wrench. If you put it on in line with the wrench then you are increasing the length of the torque wrench by up to two inches, this means the calibration is now out. A rough guide is at a setting of 100 lbs ft the now extended wrench is now really operating at 110 lbs ft.
Just something to bear in mind when torquing up something like a sump bolt.
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[quote author=slappy link=topic=26267.msg316636#msg316636 date=1592587456
Any kind of grease can affect torque values. I work on final assembly of offshore oil and gas trees, we regularly torque in excess off 600 ft lbs and we use a specialist grease on the threads. The torque values are calculated with this grease on as it does differ from a dry thread and at these high values it means the seal, which could have to cope with massive working pressures, will leak and when the tree is sat on the bottom of the ocean that could be catastrophic.
Get real fella and in your application these are specially cut threads to take that kind of pressure and are effectively blind holes working under extreme pressure, i.e. 600ftlbs of course grease isn't going to compress :rolleyes This is a bolt on a motorbike :rolleyes
Wind your neck in,
And they are not blind holes.
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Wind your neck in,
And they are not blind holes.
Any substance that is subject to enough compression that when a torque is applied to it, is treated as a blind hole i.e. compression lock.
You wind your neck in. As I said get real no comparison at all not even close :rolleyes
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PTFE, wont compress enough, and if the threads are damaged it could be the straw the broke the camels back so to speak, it wont take the heat very well and start leaking.
Not so- It Works as a deformable filler and thread lubricant, helping to seal the joint without hardening or making it more difficult to tighten, and instead making it easier to tighten.
Temperature Range: -450°F to +500°F (-268°C to +260°C). PTFE is completely stable up to +500˚F or +260˚C. Decomposition is slow up to 750°F or 400°C. Decomposition will occur on contact with open flames.
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also gnasher, your point about the weep will ineviably get worse is true, so i will look to permanently stop it up with some bonding agent etc once it gets to the point where it is worse.
your other point about properly draining so that you are removing as much old oil as possible is also a very good point , which is exactly why you need to get as much out as possible, i definitley got 3.5 litres of old oil out, which is what the manual says oil & filetr 3.5 litres req .
however a dry engine following rebuild takes 4.2 litres. this must mean then that you can never remove the remaining old 0.7 litres from any style of oil drain so there is always .7l of old oil kicking around in your engine stuck in places that it cannot drain back to the sump . no way to remove 100% of all oil without disembly.
i think 3.5 is the max you can get out and just as long as thats what you can get out , this pump method is equal to a conventional drian. you cant drain anymore out than you can pump out.
What manual are you reading?
It's a 2.5 litre sump, or I use 2.8 litres with a filter change as well.
My window is not see through any more so I have to use measurements.
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Temperature Range: -450°F to +500°F (-268°C to +260°C). PTFE is completely stable up to +500˚F or +260˚C. Decomposition is slow up to 750°F or 400°C. Decomposition will occur on contact with open flames.
You crack on then mate, it's your choice, its you that's going to be sorting out the mess, when it comes to undoing it. :) [size=78%] [/size]
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Temperature Range: -450°F to +500°F (-268°C to +260°C). PTFE is completely stable up to +500˚F or +260˚C. Decomposition is slow up to 750°F or 400°C. Decomposition will occur on contact with open flames.
You crack on then mate, it's your choice, its you that's going to be sorting out the mess, when it comes to undoing it. :) [size=78%] [/size]
What mess.
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What mess.
Put some on your drain bolt, ride around for 8k change the oil and you'll find out ;)
Mate, the advice I freely offer here is based on years of working on bike both as an owner and as a business, if you don't want to take it that's your choice. :)
[size=78%] [/size]
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What mess.
Put some on your drain bolt, ride around for 8k change the oil and you'll find out ;)
Mate, the advice I freely offer here is based on years of working on bike both as an owner and as a business, if you don't want to take it that's your choice. :)
[size=78%] [/size]
Yes I appreciate your experience and that is why I am asking. What do you mean by mess.
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Yes I appreciate your experience and that is why I am asking. What do you mean by mess.
As with everything there's PTFE and there's PTFE, it's main application is as a pipe seal white water, yellow gas, green for O2 and I think there's a few others for specific applications. It's designed to fit and forget pretty much i.e. not being undone at regular intervals.
The most common is white, when used on sump bolts it turns into a stringy oil soaked mess, depending on how much is put on (most over do it) half is left in the sump thread, the reminder spread on the bolt or strings off it, as said a mess. If you don't mind all that, happy days.
The real point is if the sump blot is leaking something is wrong, my advice fix it properly, wrapping PTFE around it is a bodge, one which often doesn't work.
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I see sump covers are no longer available new. I bet they're one of the first parts to run out, for the obvious reason.
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Anybody wondering what different types of lubrication have on torque values have a look at this basic explanation
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html%23:~:text%3DDry%2520bolt%2520torque%2520is%2520approximately,or%2520628%2520lbf%2520ft.%26text%3DIf%2520the%2520bolt%2520is%2520lubricated,is%2520reduced%2520with%2520approximately%252040%2525.%26text%3DNote%2520that%2520if%2520torque%2520specified,bolt%2520may%2520overload%2520and%2520break.&ved=2ahUKEwiTv97-sZPqAhWUiFwKHeNYAYoQFjABegQIDBAF&usg=AOvVaw0U0vHcct1pVWX9fOxrI1Dv&cshid=1592759213988
It does not matter whether the torque is 10lbs ft or 1000lbs ft, the true torque value will be affected. There is a reason why so many people strip the thread in their sumps or crack the sump.When people put the sump bolt back in, even if they have cleaned the thread on the bolt, there is still oil on the thread in the sump.
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Anybody wondering what different types of lubrication have on torque values have a look at this basic explanation
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html%23:~:text%3DDry%2520bolt%2520torque%2520is%2520approximately,or%2520628%2520lbf%2520ft.%26text%3DIf%2520the%2520bolt%2520is%2520lubricated,is%2520reduced%2520with%2520approximately%252040%2525.%26text%3DNote%2520that%2520if%2520torque%2520specified,bolt%2520may%2520overload%2520and%2520break.&ved=2ahUKEwiTv97-sZPqAhWUiFwKHeNYAYoQFjABegQIDBAF&usg=AOvVaw0U0vHcct1pVWX9fOxrI1Dv&cshid=1592759213988 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html%23:~:text%3DDry%2520bolt%2520torque%2520is%2520approximately,or%2520628%2520lbf%2520ft.%26text%3DIf%2520the%2520bolt%2520is%2520lubricated,is%2520reduced%2520with%2520approximately%252040%2525.%26text%3DNote%2520that%2520if%2520torque%2520specified,bolt%2520may%2520overload%2520and%2520break.&ved=2ahUKEwiTv97-sZPqAhWUiFwKHeNYAYoQFjABegQIDBAF&usg=AOvVaw0U0vHcct1pVWX9fOxrI1Dv&cshid=1592759213988)
It does not matter whether the torque is 10lbs ft or 1000lbs ft, the true torque value will be affected. There is a reason why so many people strip the thread in their sumps or crack the sump.When people put the sump bolt back in, even if they have cleaned the thread on the bolt, there is still oil on the thread in the sump.
That's strange because there's another guide I've posted on here before that says engine oil is one of the few things that won't affect torque settings?
That aside I still think the main reason is just over tightening from being a bit over zealous due to people not being able to use a standard torque wrench on that bolt.
The wall of the sump plate is much longer than i realised after searching for a photo, and it shows that every thread of the OEM bolt gets used up.
Kind of strange why the newer magnetic ones were made half the size, and explains why they strip the fine threads too.
It does also explain that if a new OEM bolt was used it could highly likely solve the leaking as the deeper threads may still be intact.
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Anybody wondering what different types of lubrication have on torque values have a look at this basic explanation
[url]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html%23:~:text%3DDry%2520bolt%2520torque%2520is%2520approximately,or%2520628%2520lbf%2520ft.%26text%3DIf%2520the%2520bolt%2520is%2520lubricated,is%2520reduced%2520with%2520approximately%252040%2525.%26text%3DNote%2520that%2520if%2520torque%2520specified,bolt%2520may%2520overload%2520and%2520break.&ved=2ahUKEwiTv97-sZPqAhWUiFwKHeNYAYoQFjABegQIDBAF&usg=AOvVaw0U0vHcct1pVWX9fOxrI1Dv&cshid=1592759213988[/url] ([url]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html%23:~:text%3DDry%2520bolt%2520torque%2520is%2520approximately,or%2520628%2520lbf%2520ft.%26text%3DIf%2520the%2520bolt%2520is%2520lubricated,is%2520reduced%2520with%2520approximately%252040%2525.%26text%3DNote%2520that%2520if%2520torque%2520specified,bolt%2520may%2520overload%2520and%2520break.&ved=2ahUKEwiTv97-sZPqAhWUiFwKHeNYAYoQFjABegQIDBAF&usg=AOvVaw0U0vHcct1pVWX9fOxrI1Dv&cshid=1592759213988[/url])
It does not matter whether the torque is 10lbs ft or 1000lbs ft, the true torque value will be affected. There is a reason why so many people strip the thread in their sumps or crack the sump.When people put the sump bolt back in, even if they have cleaned the thread on the bolt, there is still oil on the thread in the sump.
This is what i found years ago.
http://benmlee.com/4Runner/threads.htm (http://benmlee.com/4Runner/threads.htm)