[SOLVED]manometer vs gauge dials

[keratos]

Give up balancing my carbs
This 4 gauge setup has air restrictor in so the needles can be settled. Terrible is they stick or jump wildly. Tried to tweak so they twitch , a fine setting , get a balance across all 4 carbs but engine doesn't sound right, so unrestrict then restrict and hey presto the needles are in a different position. Guess that what you get for a £40 eBay kit. Tried lots of things but it's not reliable kit
Are these manometers more settled and reliable. Any recommendations

Edit: is there any one in Blackpool I can lend a 4 port Morgan carbtune from.... Happy to buy you a point or two whilst here or pay cash for the 30 minute loan

[midden]

 

[keratos]

Silly!
A PIC isn't going to show you the needles jumping around
Guess i was asking us whether foccers have used dial versus Morgan carbtune and what their experience is
No need for pics for that!!

[dazza]

Hi Keratos,  never used either myself but have you got any pictures?

[keratos]

Why do you guys need pictures to answer the OP???

I am only looking for connects from people who have used both

Sorry if I have not made that clear. Apologies

[midden]

I won't bother to share my experience of using one then. Even if I did use it in two different ways

[dazza]

I'm not really interested in the op, I just like looking at pictures. So,  have you got any?  Anything will do, doesn't have to be a carbtune. How about a picture of a penny dropping?
Btw,  calling people silly isn't exactly going to get them queuing up to help you you know.

[keratos]

Thread unotified

Apologies for any offence caused

I'll go somewhere else

[keratos]

I'm not really interested in the op, I just like looking at pictures. So,  have you got any?  Anything will do, doesn't have to be a carbtune. How about a picture of a penny dropping?
Btw,  calling people silly isn't exactly going to get them queuing up to help you you know.

Now sarcasim is a most unfavourable form of wit and tells us more about the source than it does the target
Ta ta

[red98]

Calm down keratos, its only a balancing act.....the picture everyone wants to see is a picture of your 4 gauge set up, we cant comment unless we know what set up your using  ...I use a 4 gauge set -up and never have any problems.....

[midden]

Calm down keratos, its only a balancing act.....the picture everyone wants to see is a picture of your 4 gauge set up, we cant comment unless we know what set up your using  ...I use a 4 gauge set -up and never have any problems.....

Oh Paul you sound like Michael Winner


http://youtu.be/efl5pFTFnBU

[red98]

Calm down midden, iam acting, iam really a very good rider    .......anywhos, back to topic...a picture...

[keratos]

 

That's more like it

[red98]

    I'll dig out my 4 dial set up later and post a piccie....see if we have the same 

[keratos]

Ahem, er, I'm still not sure as to the purpose of the  pic exchange ? I have used this 4 gauge setup before and know how to setup and use, and set the baffles to restrict air flow; what I'm suggesting - which requires no need for pics - is that the dial mechanisms are not as reliable as the fluid manometer type gauges , principally because:

1. Dials convert pressure to a mechanical reading thus involving some potential loss of accuracy/consistency and thus requires calibration
2. The dials need to be calibrated and my impression is that on expensive dial setup , each dial (x4) will be individually certified calibrated whereas cheaper eBay type items will not. This means that whilst all needle indicators APPEAR to be reading the same value, these readings would not take into account variations in calibration , resulting in cheap eBay gauges being way off despite all appearing to read the same value
3. Manometers, on the other hand, use direct vacuum to fluid mechanics and thus are more "reliable" - notwithstanding potential for errors due to manufacturing processes - tube diameters, baffle bores, etc. But the simplicity of manometers and the workings of vacuums and fluid are more in concert with each other when compared to a mechanical movement  (dials) induced through vacuum ??

So quite why pics are needed for this - I simply dont know - but if you guys insist then I can post a pic of gauges at zero or gauges all at different readings - or the same - but that achieves very little to my simple mind  ???

EDIT: I've thought of one good example of pics - one pic of a manometer on all 4 carbs, and one pic of 4 gauges on the same carbs without any adjustment after removing the manometer....is that what you mean? If so I cant do this because I aint got a manometer which was the whole point of this thread

[midden]

calibrate???? almost as good as pics? 
if you want to check calibration of each gauge then connect each one in turn to number 1 & 2 carb.... simples (been doing the meerkat thang today    )
People use homemade set ups using pipe and oil, I'm sure they aren't sent off for calibration.


Note:  as far as pics helping are concerned surely that is down to the ones u seek help from

[keratos]

calibrate???? almost as good as pics? 
if you want to check calibration of each gauge then connect each one in turn to number 1 & 2 carb.... simples (been doing the meerkat thang today    )
People use homemade set ups using pipe and oil, I'm sure they aren't sent off for calibration.


Note:  as far as pics helping are concerned surely that is down to the ones u seek help from

homemade pipe versions are - i suspect - reference to home made manometers or "water bottle chain" which operate differently than dials and need little if any calibration


connecting the same dial (one of 4) to all 4 carbs and reading the delta on each of the other 3 is one way - but a pain - for me - so I'm lazy and have ordered a carbtune from Morgan. My dials were from eBay and are not helping

doesnt matter . I wish I didnt start this thread - sorry for being a pain - I do not seem to be making the point in a way it is understood .. its ok now anyway
thank you all the same

[dazza]

Don't forget to post some pictures 

[Fazerider]

I've not used a dial type (always suspected they'd give the sort of results you have), but since the vacuum fluctuates all types exhibit jitter to some degree.
Both mercury and rod-and-spring (Morgan) wobble noticeably, in fact the latter depends on the jitter to overcome stiction. You could, in theory, increase the damping of mercury ones to the point where the movement isn't visible, but it would make them slow to react to adjustments of the carbs. So far as accuracy is concerned I didn't find any problems with either type of manometer (set-up carbs, swapped connections... readings stayed the same).
I did make a (differential) water manometer for the job once when I was too much of cheapskate to buy a Carbtune... and found the carbs were sufficiently out of balance that the 5ft of head I'd designed for was not adequate. Fortunately I'd included restrictions (to cut down on jitter) and that reduced the rate at which the engine sucked the water in so there were no ill effects.

[keratos]

I've not used a dial type (always suspected they'd give the sort of results you have), but since the vacuum fluctuates all types exhibit jitter to some degree.
Both mercury and rod-and-spring (Morgan) wobble noticeably, in fact the latter depends on the jitter to overcome stiction. You could, in theory, increase the damping of mercury ones to the point where the movement isn't visible, but it would make them slow to react to adjustments of the carbs. So far as accuracy is concerned I didn't find any problems with either type of manometer (set-up carbs, swapped connections... readings stayed the same).
I did make a (differential) water manometer for the job once when I was too much of cheapskate to buy a Carbtune... and found the carbs were sufficiently out of balance that the 5ft of head I'd designed for was not adequate. Fortunately I'd included restrictions (to cut down on jitter) and that reduced the rate at which the engine sucked the water in so there were no ill effects.

Appreciate the insightful post. Useful info. thank you

[limax2]

To check the calibration of a four dial set-up I made an adapter to take the four pipes and a shut off tap at one end and fitted the other end to an empty co2 bottle from the mig welder. Then with some water in the bottle and the tap open I heated it up until steam came out, then shut the tap. As it cooled down the four gauges all measure the vacuum created by the cooling at the same time. I can't remember if I had to make some fine adjustment but I do remember they were very close to start with. 
If a photo is needed it will have to wait, because I am not about to do it right away. 

[keratos]

To check the calibration of a four dial set-up I made an adapter to take the four pipes and a shut off tap at one end and fitted the other end to an empty co2 bottle from the mig welder. Then with some water in the bottle and the tap open I heated it up until steam came out, then shut the tap. As it cooled down the four gauges all measure the vacuum created by the cooling at the same time. I can't remember if I had to make some fine adjustment but I do remember they were very close to start with. 
If a photo is needed it will have to wait, because I am not about to do it right away. 

Thanks. Regrettably I don't have much mechanicals tooling , more electrical for me. I certainly don't have welders or gas bottles. But thanks for the tips

[savvy]

I have used dial type both on my VFR (now gone)and fazer I used fishtank air 4 tube connector to balance them.Another post can't remember which off hand, but they worked well for me/
  PICS BELOW

[red98]

I have the same set as savvy, had them years and never give any trouble, calibrate by connecting to the same carb one at a time and adjust if needed using the silver screw at the bottom of the dial beneath the glass...

[keratos]

I have the same set as savvy, had them years and never give any trouble, calibrate by connecting to the same carb one at a time and adjust if needed using the silver screw at the bottom of the dial beneath the glass...

Done that , still jumping and sticking, calibrated using single pipe and noted deviations as per photo above. I guess they are just crap. What dya expect for £40. The Davida gauges are great but expensive for a one-shot task. Anyway, I've purchased - as highlighted in my post above - a Morgan Carbtune 4 port tuner for £30 2nd hand in great condition. See how this goes.