Mate you could have saved all that faff, car vacuum oil changer, through the oil filler cap. To lean the bike over to the right, apply and secure the front brake lever and tied downs or quality tow rope will do, through the top frame/top yoke and onto a a secure point on a wall, works a treat
Couldn’t you fit an oversize tapered sump plug in situ? There might be a bit of swarf but should be able to get most of it out with a flush.
was to remove a cover 8 bolts.
Quote from: butthead on 18 June 2020, 03:59:10 pm was to remove a cover 8 bolts. That's the whole point you don't have to remove the clutch cover
how much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.
Also a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?
Quote from: fazersharp on 19 June 2020, 08:02:22 amAlso a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.
No need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.That's why i was saying it only needs nipping up.
Thought the idea of a crush washer was to help seal as it spreads out -- ?
Quote from: fazersharp on 19 June 2020, 08:02:22 amAlso a replacement new crush washer maybe will help ?It just might that said, he's saying the threads are stripped and there is load on the washer 40 odd NmQuote from: darrsi on 19 June 2020, 08:14:37 amNo need really, it's only a bolt plugging a hole, there's no stress or load on it at all.That's why i was saying it only needs nipping up. No mate, the threads don't seal the washer does and there is load on it, by definition it's a washer, washer's spread load in this case 40 odd Nm forming the seal. Also there're 2 types of sump bolt/plug washer you'll find, 1 is the crush type i.e. it requires an amount of crush (40 odd Nm) for it to from a mating/sealing surface and should be used only once, 2 flat type, which is soft steel, copper or aluminium, some older bikes had fibre, the flat type hardens in use, can be reused but should be anneled, but there's a limit. Fibre is not used these days, especially where different metals are used ally sump, steel bolt or vice versa as the expand and contract at different rates, then leak. Old Brit bikes and cars! Both crush/flat types will leak if over tighten i.e. nipping up, yes once may be, but if it's leaking at the correct torque the washer had it and/or the sump mating surface is damaged. Reuse of the washer and nipping up is what causes this chaps problem in the fist place i.e. washer gets distorted, leaks, nip up, mating surfaces get damaged it leaks, nip it up threads stretch, less torque on the washer it leaks, nip it up threads strip
Quote from: butthead on 18 June 2020, 09:51:30 pmhow much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.You're confusing, sucking with pouring mate, it matters not about the casing lip. If you lean the bike over as I've described and suck out via the the filler, you get it all out or as much as using the sump plug. In fact if you tip the bike backwards slightly you get a little more than draining out the sump plug. Your issue with a buggered sump isn't a one off, I know of 2 bikes with the same issue. One has rounded off the hex and utterly buggered whats remains trying to remove it with screwdriver and a hammer the only way now to remove without risking damaging the sump is to remove the sump. The other is like yours stripped and he's bonded the sump plug in due to same issues of exhaust. Both don't want to pay to have the sump removed, both have had several oil changes as mentioned above. This is only a 'get around', that said for many older type bikes the vacuum oil removal works fine, some newer engines and those with dual sump plugs it doesn't.
Quote from: Gnasher on 19 June 2020, 07:32:38 amQuote from: butthead on 18 June 2020, 09:51:30 pmhow much oil did you get out then without laying the bike on its side ? only some comes through those slots not all, unless the bike was pretty much flat on ts side . the benefit of taking the clutch cover off is i do know not all the oil comes through the slots ,you can see theres some below, it might if the bike was flat perhaps , and you do need to know its all out.You're confusing, sucking with pouring mate, it matters not about the casing lip. If you lean the bike over as I've described and suck out via the the filler, you get it all out or as much as using the sump plug. In fact if you tip the bike backwards slightly you get a little more than draining out the sump plug. Your issue with a buggered sump isn't a one off, I know of 2 bikes with the same issue. One has rounded off the hex and utterly buggered whats remains trying to remove it with screwdriver and a hammer the only way now to remove without risking damaging the sump is to remove the sump. The other is like yours stripped and he's bonded the sump plug in due to same issues of exhaust. Both don't want to pay to have the sump removed, both have had several oil changes as mentioned above. This is only a 'get around', that said for many older type bikes the vacuum oil removal works fine, some newer engines and those with dual sump plugs it doesn't. fair enough mate , you've clearly done this a couple of times before, so i will next time see if i can do as youre doing then and leave the clutch cover on, as you say to lean the bike back a bit also makes sense as the sump pan has baffle walls and those will stop some oil getting to the places you need to to drain but by slightly lifting back it will allow it flow through to where you need to get at it via the filler. more than wiling to try your way as you say its a litle less work.
Out of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new?
Quote from: darrsi on 19 June 2020, 05:37:52 amOut of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new? actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts. now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads, therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying . personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?
Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher.
I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.
Quote from: butthead on 19 June 2020, 09:58:39 amQuote from: darrsi on 19 June 2020, 05:37:52 amOut of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new? actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts. now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads, therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying . personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?Have you replaced the bolt for an OEM one?yes once the mag bolt didnt feel right, removed it put back old OEM on, new washer, did it up as much as i dared and decided to leave it alone, once its stripped its only going to get worse taking on/off. ultimatley id prefer a new pan and bolt but that isnt going to happen with the rusty header studs and nuts on the exhaust, so this is how it will stay now, but as i have found an alternative way to oil change and adopting gnashers version , its fine really. the advantage of sucking out with a pump is you can put the old oil straight into a contaner via pump pipe rather than a messy drain tray that you end up having to have the side stand sitting in too ,plus emptying the drain tray cleanly, so in a way its a better way than normal.
Quote from: darrsi on 19 June 2020, 09:21:35 amGonna have to agree to disagree with you there Gnasher. That's your choice mate But your way is bad practice and at some point it's going to leak, when it does just pray you've not damaged the mating surface and/or stretched the threads as it will. New OE washer is £2.60 ish last I bought one, or copper £5 for 10. Quote I'm guessing there is some sort of different version of a torque wrench that fits onto this bolt allowing things to be torqued properly but as you can imagine i would reckon that 99% or more of people won't have this gadget available in their tool box.Nope, crows foot spanner
Quote from: darrsi on 19 June 2020, 10:02:12 amQuote from: butthead on 19 June 2020, 09:58:39 amQuote from: darrsi on 19 June 2020, 05:37:52 amOut of curiosity, would you know if you have an original sump plug on the bike?The reason i ask is because a lot of aftermarket sump plugs, like the magnetic ones for example are shorter with less threads, and will feel like they are cross threading almost immediately when you go to tighten them up if the sump thread has been damaged or weakened by over tightening.If somebody has decided to change the sump plug just because of the magnetic option, then that "may" be the issue. Just a thought.OEM plugs are longer in length and even though you don't need all the threads they somehow do tighten up much more convincingly.I have tried this myself so it is from personal experience.Because of the position these plugs are in a torque wrench normally isn't an option but they only need nipping up by hand anyway.I did end up getting a replacement OEM sump plug as the magnetic one just didn't feel right and the new one nipped up fine and has never leaked.Maybe the threads are simply better on the OEM plugs and it appreciated them being new? actually this was the cause of the problem in the first place, using one of those short thread mag bolts. now after the event i know you need less torque on these because they are shorter threads, therefore same force over a smaller thread size amplifies the stress on the threads and hence i stripped the threads that otherwise was fine on the longer OEM bolt.also its very dificult as we all know to access the sump bolt with anything other than a ring or open end spanner, so diffcult to know what force you are applying . personally 40nm is too much i think, thats what i was trying to emulate by hand ?Have you replaced the bolt for an OEM one?yes once the mag bolt didnt feel right, removed it put back old OEM on, new washer, did it up as much as i dared and decided to leave it alone, once its stripped its only going to get worse taking on/off. ultimatley id prefer a new pan and bolt but that isnt going to happen with the rusty header studs and nuts on the exhaust, so this is how it will stay now, but as i have found an alternative way to oil change and adopting gnashers version , its fine really. the advantage of sucking out with a pump is you can put the old oil straight into a contaner via pump pipe rather than a messy drain tray that you end up having to have the side stand sitting in too ,plus emptying the drain tray cleanly, so in a way its a better way than normal.