air v's water cooled

[ferret]

Hi guys here's one I've been mulling over today, is there actually any benefit to go for a water cooled engine over your standard air cooled job,
now I'm thinking your average rider who pootles around at 50 60ish backwards and forwards to work not your abnormal weekend warrior who appears to want to go from a to b at warp factor speed for no other reason than he's fed up with picking fluff out of his belly button,
Ok if you use your bike on the track and that sort of stuff yeah maybe but otherwise I think it's technology for the sake of it in most cases, much like fuel injection and abs, it's taking bike maintenance out of the hands of the rider/owner and into the hands of the dealers much like the way cars have already gone, any thoughts

[lew600fazer]

A water cooled engine will give you better liner wear than air cooled, simply because the engine temperature is thermostatically controlled, as is the oil temp. Anyone who is old enough to have owned an aircooled Triumph Trdient will tell you the down fall of that bike was you struggled to keep the centre cylinder cool.
Perhaps if you are running a wee 125/250 single for running back and forth to work aircooled is okay, multi cyclinder engines are better Liquid cooled.
As for ABS braking it is a no brainer , it is a proven fact it is safer, and you will stop a bike faster with ABS than without, unless Jamie Whitham is telling lies.
Motorcycles evolve and things like Liquid cooling, ABS braking. Fuel Injection, Linked Brakes& Disc Brakes, Traction control and even traffic indicators have all made motorcycling safer.

[ferret]

mmmm I was thinking Ariel square four when I was contemplating water cooled engines, but yep your right about the triples the middle pot was always seizing up, so what about V twins you don't hear very often about the rear cylinder having problems

[BBROWN1664]

Water cooled means better efficiency and power delivery. Fuel injection gives cleaner engines.
ABS lets numpties stop safer. Ok, all of us stop safer but not quicker. aBS stops you locking up the wheels and tends to release the brake pressure earlier than it could meaning braking distances are slightly longer than someone with a very good feel for the brakes.

[Fazafou]

Blimey, comparing ABS and FI to water cooling

Water cooling is a sensible and effective way to keep an engine at optimal operating temperature. It's been around for donkeys years and not something that puts the maintenance in the hands of the dealers IMO.

[ferret]

yes if you want to get picky you can go back to the late 1800's for the introduction of a water cooled bike engines but I think Suzuki was the first mass produced bike sometime in the early 70's
and I suppose the art of fettling your bike in the back yard is dying out, unless you have a phd in auto electronics or an old bike,
not actually comparing just lumping things together

[YamFazFan]

Scott's were water cooled & they sold a fair number of bikes in the '20s/'30s.

[BIG MAC]

Some aircraft engines are still aircooled. A lot of it has to do with cost believe it or not. A crap liquid cooled engine will get away with electro coated boares and lighter components made out of less material. Casting finned blocks isn't easy and I imagine many were scrapped as a matter of course because we demand bikes to look good. Racy bodywork? can hide shoddy engines and crappy wiring. The other cost is that of reputation...reliability with liquid cooling is better, emissions can be better managed, engine noise reduced..et cetera. Saying that I think a 650 Bonnie has more charm than a Suzuki Gladioli

[chaz]

The Velocette LE was made from 1948 to 1970, these were water cooled flat twin, first ones were 150cc and then 200cc.
air cooled engines need larger clearances on parts due the the greater temperature range they have to work in, anyone whos been stuck in traffic on a hot summers day know how hot air cooled engines can get?

[YamFazFan]

air cooled engines need larger clearances on parts due the the greater temperature range they have to work in, anyone whos been stuck in traffic on a hot summers day know how hot air cooled engines can get?

It has always surprised me how,on a steaming hot summers day,stuck in traffic,with no air-flow,all air cooled bikes don't overheat/seize up!.

[sadlonelygit]

on my old r1100s in the middle of summer in milan it used a litre of oil crossing town, or more accurately it used a litre in the day, when for the other 1200 miles it hadn't used a drop, or for the other 1000 coming home either!
once the oil gets too hot it starts evaporating, then engine go boom-boom! unless it's a C50/70/90, then you let it cool down, add more oil and ride it for another 10000 miles

[Hedgetrimmer]

Ah yes, the C90. Cockroach of the two wheeled world. I suspect they would survive a nuclear attack.

[Simon.Pieman]

The main reasons for the motorcycle manufacturers using water cooled engines was to quieten the mechanical noise down to pass noise regs and because the new 'fashion' to enclose bikes in fairings required a need for better cooling (the engine sees less airflow enclosed by a fairing of course) The GPz900R is a good example of this, although they didn't really get it quite right and it did tend to overheat rather a lot.
 Manufacturers would love to make more aircooled bikes because they are cheaper to produce.

[lew600fazer]

I agree to a certain extent on the noise regulations bit. As I said in my earlier post Triumph & BSA (Trident/Rocket 3) biggest problem was keeping the centre cylinder cool.
I ran an Areil Leader air cooled twin fully faired and never had any cooling problems with that.

http://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revzilla.com%2Fcommon-tread%2Fwhy-things-are-the-way-they-are-a-farewell-to-air-cooling&ei=7MlsVLKxH4yNsQS8woDYCw&usg=AFQjCNEyxduDTR4FLMdBEEBOiKQQPoUfBA&bvm=bv.80120444,d.cWc

Having tested and dismissed Meriden Triumph's Phoenix/Diana project, John Bloor's relaunch of the Triumph marque needed a new development starting point and the GPZ900R motor was used, as that starting point, for the original Triumph modular design of 1990. It is not a direct copy of it though, as the cam chain being at the other end of the engine and the use of wet liners (instead of dry ones) demonstrate.

Just to touch on an earlier subject, Simon and I touched on a week or so back The Japanese motorcycle industry was founded on copying the designs of British Manufacturers.

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Ah yes, the C90. Cockroach of the two wheeled world. I suspect they would survive a nuclear attack.

Cockroach!?  The world's best selling motorcycle.  Hasn't everybody got one?

The main reasons for the motorcycle manufacturers using water cooled engines was to quieten the mechanical noise down to pass noise regs and because the new 'fashion' to enclose bikes in fairings required a need for better cooling (the engine sees less airflow enclosed by a fairing of course) The GPz900R is a good example of this, although they didn't really get it quite right and it did tend to overheat rather a lot.
 Manufacturers would love to make more aircooled bikes because they are cheaper to produce.

Don't think noise regs threatened air cooled engines till well after everybody had pretty much gone water cooled.  And umm big air cooled bikes are still on sale. 

It's BHP init?  More BHP means more heat, I guess you could make the engines bigger with bigger fins but that's pointless, so it's water cooling init, only way to get rid of all that heat.  More BHP = more sales.

Cheaper, is there really much if anything in it? 

Air cooled always looks better, well unless it's a kettle.

[Simon.Pieman]

It's BHP init?  More BHP means more heat, I guess you could make the engines bigger with bigger fins but that's pointless, so it's water cooling init, only way to get rid of all that heat.  More BHP = more sales.

So engines that have lower horsepower can get away with air cooling then? (Except that most smaller bikes including commuters in a low state of tune are water-cooled)

[Hedgetrimmer]

Ah yes, the C90. Cockroach of the two wheeled world. I suspect they would survive a nuclear attack.

Cockroach!?  The world's best selling motorcycle.  Hasn't everybody got one?

I reckon everybody probably has one, under an ancient, mouldy cover outside somewhere. When was the last time everyone checked what that shapeless thing down in the shadows in the corner there is? Do it! Do it now, lest they take over the world! 

[VNA - BMW Wank]

Except that most smaller bikes including commuters in a low state of tune are water-cooled

So it can't be more expensive.  Less raw material, more compact, fully enclosed.  Much improved reliability.

Water cooling is cool.

More BHP brought it in, now as you point out it's routine. 

[Simon.Pieman]

Except that most smaller bikes including commuters in a low state of tune are water-cooled

So it can't be more expensive.  Less raw material, more compact, fully enclosed.  Much improved reliability.

Water cooling is cool.

More BHP brought it in, now as you point out it's routine.

Yeah, sure.

[cherokee]

I used to have a VW Beetle, when you opened the bonnet on a hot day it nearly blew your head off , classic air cooled.

[Dave48]

Water cooled engines can be built with tighter clearances betweeen pistons/cylinders etc due to the resulting better control of thermal expansion with performance/emission/oil consumption benefits.
If only there was a way to convert all that wasted heat energy to propulsion!