Author Topic: She won't start... can anyone help!!!!!! (Read 8780 times)

fazer390 · « **on:** 25 November 2013, 08:10:25 pm »

I went to start my Fazer (2002 gen 1 thou) this afternoon and it wouldn't start? which is unlike my Fazer... The last time I used it was Hogging the Bridge in October where it ran faultless. I also put a brand new battery on it that month.
The starter turns over nice and strong, but the engine doesn't catch. Initially I tried choke on / choke off, throttle on / throttle off.
After a lot of head scratching; I thought sod it and called the RAC. Unfortunately he also couldn't diagnose the problem fully either; however he did narrow it down and reckons it's the electrical system not fuel as first suspected. He checked for a spark and there wasn't one! He wiggled a few wires, checked the fuses, looked under the tank, fiddled with the fuel tap etc... etc...
Attempted to start it again and it starts... I thought great, it must have been a dodgy connection or something. After a few minutes I cut the engine. RAC man left, I donned my jacket and lid, turned the key. The starter spins nice and strong and nothing!!! the engine fails to start

. Eventually it does but now only on 2 cylinders. It then coughs and splutters and dies. I start it again; it struggles, then 2 cylinders again! It's difficult to explain without showing and hearing?
The RAC guy did say it could be the pickup sensor or maybe the META alarm or something...
Any ideas guys? I'm pulling my hair out...
Oh... another thing it does now too is the Fuel Pump runs a lot longer prior to starting, then when it has started the pump continues to run (sounds like a long frequency of clicking). I'm sure it never did this before.
Answers on a postcard Please...

Captain Haddock · « **Reply #1 on:** 25 November 2013, 08:33:41 pm »

Sticking float causing it to flood? Would explain the fuel pump bit.

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 November 2013, 09:11:51 pm »

Sticking float should also result in overflowing fuel but you might be on the right track. Could be the float needle valve seat O-rings letting fuel past, which would over-fuel the affected cylinder without actually overflowing.

I would also check the ignition switch (clean with WD40), the electrical connectors (particularly the large white one left side under the tank) and the various cut-out switches. Seems odd that the RAC man couldn't find a spark but then got the motor to run.

I'm thinking it might be a case of a fuel issue causing the plugs to wet up, presenting as no spark.

Have you isolated which two cylinders aren't running? Squirt water onto the header pipes to find the cold ones.

AyJay · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 November 2013, 12:18:37 am »

I've had kind of the same issue over the last year and if it's an 02, the problem could be that the wiring everywhere will be getting old and corroded.

Just recently, my 01 had been running rough, coughing a bit at low revs and generally feeling woolly, and also being a bitch to start after cleaning it. I thought the carbs needed balancing again. Finally I had one cylinder not firing at all after a good scrub and wash, and as I was fiddling about trying to find the cause, I had a plug lead pull out of the plug cap. No resistance, just pulled straight out.

Now, remembering Falcon's advice (thanks!) about the ends of the plug leads getting hard with age, I snipped off half a centimetre of plug lead and hey presto, 4 cylinders. I thought I might as well check the others and they were all very loose and the plugs caps wouldn't tighten up when I screwed them in, so I snipped each plug lead, screwed them all back in tight and guess what - one smooth running, pokey Fazer again.

I wouldn't have believed it if someone had told me it would make that much difference. No more woolliness, not more coughing. It was almost like Ivanising it again. The weird thing is, it had been running kind of ok otherwise. Once it caught on all four, it was generally fine.

My bet's electrics. Check back from the plugs themselves - are the plugs all in tight (I had one pop clean out of the cylinder once!), then plug leads - as you screw them on can you feel them get tight, then take a look at how the connections are looking on the ignition coils, and if are they looking corroded give them a scrape, and keep going all the way back to the white connector underneath the tank. Mine fell apart earlier this year, so that's an important one to check, although that would cut all the electrics and send your alarm into a fit (I had to reset my Datatool after that. Oh, that was fun. Not!)

Still, it's all pretty easily fixable with methodical approach and a bit of patience. I'd be surprised if it's the carbs and a month's layup isn't anywhere near long enough for the fuel to go off.

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 November 2013, 07:13:32 am »

Good call, AyJay.

Captain Haddock · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 November 2013, 11:36:02 am »

When checking the wiring make sure you point ya head at neutral light switch and sidestand switch, exposed electrics that stop the motor running....
Wouldn't let it run on two but could be a misfire thing.
One thing with wasted spark coil setups is one spark is usually weaker than the other depending on which end gets the pos/neg spark (don't know why), I work on aircraft magnetos and notice when you crank them by hand with no leads attached every other one will send a spark across the dizzy block with the ones in between lifeless, re-time with the rotor 180 degs away and the opposite connections do it.

unfazed · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 November 2013, 08:03:03 pm »

I had a similiar issues and I discovered that the pick up plug under the tank had some corrosion in it and a quick spray of WD40 fixed it. Had me baffled for a while as everthing was testing fine.
I then took all the connectors apart and treated them to the same dose of WD40 as a safeguard

fazer390 · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 November 2013, 05:32:20 pm »

Cheers guys. All fixed... It was corroded electrical connections. The big white Lecky connection under tank and yep, the pickup connecter block. I also cleaned all the other blocks too.

Running sweat again... ;-)

Dave48 · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 November 2013, 05:55:16 pm »

Invest in a can of ACF 50 & treat all your electrics to a dose -its magic stuff!

prevents

&

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 November 2013, 05:58:42 pm »

Worth taking a look at this link regarding the large white reg/rec connector as this is a fairly common problem on older Gen 1s now:

http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/eskortsdefectiveconnectorreplacement.shtml

Glad you got yours running sweet again.

Mike

fazer390 · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 November 2013, 09:58:46 pm »

Good idea Dave... In fact I did treat my electrics to some GT85 as a further preventative measure.
Cheers for the link Mike, interesting read. I will look into replacing that white lecky block as soon as now...

fazer390 · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 December 2013, 06:57:38 pm »

Hi Guys. Merry Christmas...

I've replaced the white lecky block, cleaned up all the other lecky connections and treated them to some gt85. I went for a 40 mile blast yesterday as it was dry, it's not as bad as it was but still cuts out as before. It's like switching the kill switch off & on! More so at high revs initially; however once warmed up 20 miles in the symptoms seemed to diminish? I think it may be a short somewhere, but any other pointers will be much appreciated. I've got a bit of time off over Xmas and desparate to get it fixed!!!
Cheers in advance chaps... $:\$

sirgalahad3 · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 December 2013, 07:10:44 pm »

Connections to and including: side stand switch, engine kill switch, ignition switch, cut out relay under nearside side panel, main ecu. Problem will be there somewhere.

slimwilly · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 December 2013, 06:45:06 am »

You may need to carry a spare spark plug, if it stops then you can pull one plug cap off and hang the spare plug against the casing to see if you have a spark when pressing start, saves you turning it over and over wanting it to start.Then you can see if moving wires etc will bring a spark.

Dave48 · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 December 2013, 08:16:16 am »

When you have eliminated all other possible causes,-electrical,fuel etc then maybe worth checking your Meta alarm-how old is it? My immobiliser on the previous bike-Gen 1 thou-was 11 years old and bike showed similar symptoms to yours. Once removed all was well again-intermittent faults are the worst of all as they leave a nagging doubt which spoils your ride. Good luck!

fazer390 · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 December 2013, 04:54:29 pm »

I had another fiddle with my bike today along with an oil and filter change. It starts fine no probs. I wiggled every Lecky block and sensor wire etc... and also cleaned up the kick stand switch, all with no effect to running engine; however I noticed the clock and tacho have reset? and this has happened a few times recently. I've not diconnected the battery since I last went out on it, so I'm further puzzled with this. Surely this wouldn't have anything to do with the symptoms. My gen 1 is a 2002 and the Meta Alarm I believe was fitted when new. I'm thinking now it may be the alarm that's causing my intermittent fault. I'm wondering if a Meta dealer be able to check the alarm or would it be better to just get it removed?

unfazed · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 December 2013, 05:30:49 pm »

Check the backup fuse as it supplies the power to the clock when the ignition is switch off on a Red/Green wire.

pitternator · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 January 2014, 07:22:03 am »

I would remove alarm Jase, at that age its not worth the aggro, and if problem still continues its one possible cause ticked off at least.

My fazer is now 10 yrs old, and this has made me think its time to give its electrics a check over. On the plus side for me the bike is parked in a dry integral garage so doesn't sit in damp ,possibly corrosive conditions.

JoeRock · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 January 2014, 05:10:48 pm »

Quote from: fazer390 on 31 December 2013, 04:54:29 pm

I had another fiddle with my bike today along with an oil and filter change. It starts fine no probs. I wiggled every Lecky block and sensor wire etc... and also cleaned up the kick stand switch, all with no effect to running engine; however I noticed the clock and tacho have reset? and this has happened a few times recently. I've not diconnected the battery since I last went out on it, so I'm further puzzled with this. Surely this wouldn't have anything to do with the symptoms. My gen 1 is a 2002 and the Meta Alarm I believe was fitted when new. I'm thinking now it may be the alarm that's causing my intermittent fault. I'm wondering if a Meta dealer be able to check the alarm or would it be better to just get it removed?

If your clocks are resetting, it means that there's an issue with your main power wires somewhere from the battery, as the only way you can reset the clocks is by taking them off. I can't remember the wiring schematics for the FZS off the top of my head but it'll have the battery with two wires going off of it, one will be grounded, one will go to the starter relay and on to the starter motor. If there's nothing else in that circuit (the main wires coming off the battery) then it's got to be an issue there - so check the connections on the battery and where the main wires go to, make sure the wires themselves aren't obviously cut/crushed, and then probably check your starter relay for serious corrosion (as that'll be basically cutting all the power to the bike if there's a dodgy connection)

JoeRock · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 January 2014, 05:14:22 pm »

Having just read that you have an alarm wired in:

Does it have an immobiliser? If so they're usually wired in one of two ways - either there will be a wire spliced in that will interrup the starter button circuit (so you can turn the bike on, but not start it), or it will possibly (albeit more unusually) be wired in to the main power circuit (so the bike won't turn on at all). If its wired into the main power circuit then that could explain why the clocks are resetting if the alarms on the way out as it's essentially on and off killing the power to the bike!

fazer390 · « **Reply #20 on:** 17 January 2014, 11:05:52 am »

Hi JoeRock,

Thank you for your input, a very interesting read. I'll have a good look at the electrices this weekend.

Last weekend I did change the spark plugs (old ones did look quite ropey!) and Fuel Filter (which had never been changed!) and also squirted some carb cleaner through the carbs (via the airbox). I went for a blast and initially it did cut out again at high speed on a quiet local straight road. But then after a second run it was absalutely fine. I'm wondering if it was a bit of crap in the carbs? If it's dry'ish over the weekend I'll go out on it again after carrying out your suggestions and let you know my results...

unfazed · « **Reply #21 on:** 17 January 2014, 01:27:13 pm »

Cutting out at speed is usually electrical.
It still looks like corrosion on the electrics some where.
Joe is correct with regards the alarm and it is a good idea to disconnect it first to rule it out. I have had to rewire many alarms because they were wired incorrectly even by so called professionals.

The alarms are to be wired to cut the ignition circuit, the starter circuit and wired to a switched live which tells the alarm not to activate with the ignition on which is called the sense wire.

Davebo · « **Reply #22 on:** 17 January 2014, 06:16:22 pm »

Sorry to hijack, but ...after my Thou had been sitting for a while it coughed and spluttered into life but it ran OK. Only thing was if i cracked the throttle open it would stutter. Steady opening and it was fine. This was in the garage not under load.

Don't remember it doing that before. Any worries ?

Thanks.
DBo.

unfazed · « **Reply #23 on:** 17 January 2014, 07:29:09 pm »

Drain the carbs first and see if that cures it

Falcon 269 · « **Reply #24 on:** 17 January 2014, 08:36:37 pm »

If it doesn't, check the airbox and air filter next.