Date: 22-05-24  Time: 10:51 am

Author Topic: Carbs or something else, maybe?  (Read 6247 times)

Sannox

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Carbs or something else, maybe?
« on: 08 April 2014, 10:04:55 pm »
Got a problem with the bike, 2002 FZS, been great but had some misfire issues last winter, would start ok then would drop to 3 or even 2 cylinders after a few miles, always when under 5 Deg C or so, could get the other cylinders to fire if I revved it up or ride for 10 miles and they would kick in like a turbo!!! However..... maybe related.......

Now, as in April, if I ride easy on the throttle, no problem, she goes as a Fazer can, if I snap open the throttle, it's like hitting a rev limiter and the bike judders as though I'm not on all 4 cylinders, doesn't matter what gear I'm in and always under load, (In neutral and at a standstill, I can't replicate it) If I roll off the throttle and slow back on, the bike runs fine.

The plug were new 2k miles ago, 36k on the bike, stripped the barbs down and the diaphrams are clean, no perishing, the float bowls are clean, no gunk though had some crap under the diaphrams.

Any idea's as I'm all out.

ChristoT

  • Alleged Foc-u Daphnis & Chloe expert
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,207
  • Fluent in English, French and bullshit!
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • - Saab 9-3, caravan, hang glider
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #1 on: 08 April 2014, 10:12:35 pm »
That's not completely unusual, my bike did that too. The first problem sounds like carb icing, a known fault. the second just calls fro smooth throttle movement, I shouldn't worry hugely about it. May be worth checking it isn't restricted, of course!!

Welcome to the site, BTW!  ;)
The Deef's apprentice

darrsi

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,657
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 00-01
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #2 on: 08 April 2014, 10:19:33 pm »
Under 5 degrees could possibly be carb icing, i had it years ago and it makes the bike run like a tractor.
Ideally the carb heater circuit piping needs keeping clear, but the pipes are so thin they clog up easily.
I personally put 200ml of 99% Isopropyl Alcohol in a full tank of fuel during cold times and i've never had a problem since, it also removes any water/moisture from your tank. I've been doing that for years with no issues whatsoever. I buy 5 litres at a time off Ebay for about £14.


As for the other issue, what brand of air filter are you using? It sounds air related to me, possibly either an air leak, or a blocked or cheap crappy filter.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.

rodyork

  • CBT Wobbler
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
    • Bike trip to Europe & Turkey under £900.00?
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #3 on: 09 April 2014, 12:56:11 am »
I cant believe Ive been awarded 4 posts since the Yuku move.

anyway- heres a vid I did on balancing...where I made a cnut of myself was the icing probs....good anti freeze is your friend in UK


« Last Edit: 09 April 2014, 12:59:30 am by rodyork »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2yTtFPM7Xc

Europe & Turkey on a tight budget(Under £900.)!

ChristoT

  • Alleged Foc-u Daphnis & Chloe expert
  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,207
  • Fluent in English, French and bullshit!
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 98-99
    • - Saab 9-3, caravan, hang glider
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #4 on: 09 April 2014, 01:23:09 am »
I cant believe Ive been awarded 4 posts since the Yuku move.

anyway- heres a vid I did on balancing...where I made a cnut of myself was the icing probs....good anti freeze is your friend in UK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYgN2-96Ik0#


PM Farjo, he should be able to restore your old post count.  ;)
The Deef's apprentice

darrsi

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,657
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 00-01
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #5 on: 09 April 2014, 06:25:03 am »
I cant believe Ive been awarded 4 posts since the Yuku move.

anyway- heres a vid I did on balancing...where I made a cnut of myself was the icing probs....good anti freeze is your friend in UK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYgN2-96Ik0#



Not sure what you mean, anti freeze has nothing to do with carb icing?
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.

johna6968

  • Weekend Warrior
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
    • Main bike:
      FZ6 04-06
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #6 on: 09 April 2014, 08:43:45 am »
With darrsi on that one.. carb icing being the fuel and not the cooling system...
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it..

Arfa

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
    • Main bike:
      FZ6 S2 07-09
    • View Profile
    • Beginner Biker Adventures
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #7 on: 09 April 2014, 10:41:29 am »
Got a multi-meter? Could always check the resistances on the primary/secondary coils, pretty straight forward check. Similarly, you can check HT leads at same time.

Frosties

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,489
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 00-01
    • - Tiger 900, CBF 1000,Bandit 650
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #8 on: 09 April 2014, 12:17:37 pm »
Got a multi-meter? Could always check the resistances on the primary/secondary coils, pretty straight forward check. Similarly, you can check HT leads at same time.


+1 for the coils. Had exactly the same symptoms on the Tiger - cleaned the carbs out twice before checking the coils. 1 replacement coil later, running sweet as a nut!
Those are my principles...if you don't like them I have others.

y82ugp

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • Main bike:
      I don't own a bike
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #9 on: 09 April 2014, 01:18:29 pm »
Did you replace the spark plug caps? Just saying mine was similar running on 2 or 3 cylinders the caps where shorting out to the engine block one minute then would run fine. 

Sannox

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #10 on: 09 April 2014, 10:25:59 pm »
Thanks for the welcome and response :-) Tried fuel additives to stop carb icing, non worked really :-( I did know about the heating system for the carbs and wondering if the small pipes from the coolant system were blocked, I now know they are not as I've got the carbs off the bike, so no problems there, in response to ChristoT, I agree that smooth throttle works wonders but when you need to drop a cog and overtake a car or 3, the last thing you expect is for the bike to not go anywhere, not speed up, nothing, just judder and sound worse than Worzel Gummages tractor, not good really, so def a fault somewhere. Also had the bike almost 4 years and it's not restricted :-D Darssi, got the standard air filter in, it's clean too, as for plug caps, that is one for me to check y82ugp, was suggested I find somewhere really dark, easy here, and see if I have any arcing over, once the carbs are back on, that is one to try. I did chop off 1cm of the leads to the caps, it is a 13 year old bike and on original caps etc, made no difference but was worth a go. Arfa, I do have a multi meter, the coils are one thing I will need to look at. The local bike shop suggested fuel pump, any thoughts on this?

JoeRock

  • WSB Pack Hound
  • *****
  • Posts: 907
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #11 on: 10 April 2014, 12:40:04 am »
Thanks for the welcome and response :-) Tried fuel additives to stop carb icing, non worked really :-( I did know about the heating system for the carbs and wondering if the small pipes from the coolant system were blocked, I now know they are not as I've got the carbs off the bike, so no problems there, in response to ChristoT, I agree that smooth throttle works wonders but when you need to drop a cog and overtake a car or 3, the last thing you expect is for the bike to not go anywhere, not speed up, nothing, just judder and sound worse than Worzel Gummages tractor, not good really, so def a fault somewhere. Also had the bike almost 4 years and it's not restricted :-D Darssi, got the standard air filter in, it's clean too, as for plug caps, that is one for me to check y82ugp, was suggested I find somewhere really dark, easy here, and see if I have any arcing over, once the carbs are back on, that is one to try. I did chop off 1cm of the leads to the caps, it is a 13 year old bike and on original caps etc, made no difference but was worth a go. Arfa, I do have a multi meter, the coils are one thing I will need to look at. The local bike shop suggested fuel pump, any thoughts on this?


Could be the pump, would make sense that it struggles under high load.


That said, my money would be on the spark p;ug caps as your symptoms sound very similar to mine. I didn't have any arching, but swapped the caps over anyway and it was fine!

darrsi

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,657
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 00-01
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #12 on: 10 April 2014, 06:43:24 am »
Back to carb icing question, did the bike always go rough around the same area? Mine was at exactly the same spot, about a mile away from my house.
I tried the proper fuel additives, not worth a shit, and expensive, at the time about £12 a litre but didn't work at all, then i read about the Isopropyl trick and it worked straight away. And because it's so much cheaper you can put more in the tank.
Even if the pipes are clear it can be caused by moisture in the tank, which the IPA bonds with and then burns as fuel.
Just something to consider if you end up a bit stumped!
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.

Buzz

  • Club Racer
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #13 on: 10 April 2014, 08:33:00 am »
which the IPA bonds with
Just make sure you don't use this kind of IPA


IPA
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines...

rodyork

  • CBT Wobbler
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • View Profile
    • Bike trip to Europe & Turkey under £900.00?
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #14 on: 10 April 2014, 10:57:35 am »
With darrsi on that one.. carb icing being the fuel and not the cooling system...

You are entirely right...and I am entirely wrong!
Sorry for the mis information- ....I blame the beer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2yTtFPM7Xc

Europe & Turkey on a tight budget(Under £900.)!

Sannox

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #15 on: 10 April 2014, 09:14:31 pm »
Liking the IPA idea :-) After 10 of them, I won't care :-D

Bunged the carbs back on tonight, was a bugger of a job to get the air filter housing and tubes back onto the carbs, that took the longest, sadly though, was still the same, so, clean as a whistle carbs and not the carbs, maybe.

On one note, any revs above 5k seems to blast through the stuttering, blow 5k and it's tractor time, above 5, it stutters then takes off, change gear and no problem as the revs are high, but then, at those revs and speeds, you don't snap the throttle open anyway, so still stumped. Going to check the caps next me thinks and look at some IPA :-D

darrsi

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,657
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 00-01
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #16 on: 11 April 2014, 04:10:55 am »
Thanks for the welcome and response :-) Tried fuel additives to stop carb icing, non worked really :-( I did know about the heating system for the carbs and wondering if the small pipes from the coolant system were blocked, I now know they are not as I've got the carbs off the bike, so no problems there, in response to ChristoT, I agree that smooth throttle works wonders but when you need to drop a cog and overtake a car or 3, the last thing you expect is for the bike to not go anywhere, not speed up, nothing, just judder and sound worse than Worzel Gummages tractor, not good really, so def a fault somewhere. Also had the bike almost 4 years and it's not restricted :-D Darssi, got the standard air filter in, it's clean too, as for plug caps, that is one for me to check y82ugp, was suggested I find somewhere really dark, easy here, and see if I have any arcing over, once the carbs are back on, that is one to try. I did chop off 1cm of the leads to the caps, it is a 13 year old bike and on original caps etc, made no difference but was worth a go. Arfa, I do have a multi meter, the coils are one thing I will need to look at. The local bike shop suggested fuel pump, any thoughts on this?


When you say it runs rotten on overtaking i had a scenario like that where my bike would bog down and it turned out to be a carb inlet rubber that had been folded in on itself on refitting and was letting too much air in.
Maybe worth checking if they are okay with no cracks or splits, especially as they're not too easily visible.
Was gonna suggest a quick TPS check as well, but that should be done before and after a carb balance which i'd imagine your carbs could do with after a bit of tinkering.
However if it is something daft like an air leak then your readings will be false and not help matters either.


It's a horrible situation to be in when you can't pinpoint a fault.  :'(
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.

Sannox

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #17 on: 11 April 2014, 10:13:29 pm »
Checked all the carb inlet rubbers when I had the carbs off, all nice and clean and in good nick, no splits, the whole airbox is as new, a friend suggested kinked breather pipes but I know the issue isn't there, as the carbs are now spotless, inside and out, I'm ruling them out for now, though they do need a balance after my tinkering, I wonder if just a carb balance would sort the issue out, will see. I am wondering about plug caps, got to fire it up in the dark to check for arcing, the plugs are fine, 2k miles old but could be worth a check anyway, the battery is new and charges just fine. Will keep at it :-)

darrsi

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,657
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 00-01
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #18 on: 12 April 2014, 06:48:32 am »
Checked all the carb inlet rubbers when I had the carbs off, all nice and clean and in good nick, no splits, the whole airbox is as new, a friend suggested kinked breather pipes but I know the issue isn't there, as the carbs are now spotless, inside and out, I'm ruling them out for now, though they do need a balance after my tinkering, I wonder if just a carb balance would sort the issue out, will see. I am wondering about plug caps, got to fire it up in the dark to check for arcing, the plugs are fine, 2k miles old but could be worth a check anyway, the battery is new and charges just fine. Will keep at it :-)


TPS?
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.

unfazed

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,327
  • Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • - FZS1000 05-06, Serow 2000
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #19 on: 12 April 2014, 11:24:05 pm »
Most likely carb icing.
There was a problem with the heater pipes being blocked on some of the Foxeye models,
Apparently during the build process some crap was lodged in the elbows of the heater pipes.
Remove the heater hoses see if you can blow through from one side to the other, if not and insert a small screwdriver or something into the carburettor pipes (the ones I cleared were both on the left side) and dislodge the dirt, then blow it out.

NiallMcD

  • Cager in Training
  • Posts: 1
    • Main bike:
      Other
    • - BMW K1200rs
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #20 on: 17 April 2014, 12:23:44 am »
Liking the IPA idea :-) After 10 of them, I won't care :-D

Bunged the carbs back on tonight, was a bugger of a job to get the air filter housing and tubes back onto the carbs, that took the longest, sadly though, was still the same, so, clean as a whistle carbs and not the carbs, maybe.

On one note, any revs above 5k seems to blast through the stuttering, blow 5k and it's tractor time, above 5, it stutters then takes off, change gear and no problem as the revs are high, but then, at those revs and speeds, you don't snap the throttle open anyway, so still stumped. Going to check the caps next me thinks and look at some IPA :-D


Hi Sannox, any update.
Just joined the site, was doing a Google search and found your post.


I am showing the same symptoms.
Bike starts, idols and runs great. Will ride perfectly under normal acceleration but when you crank the throttle it sputters as if its on 3 cylinders, get it past the stuttering and she goes like a rocket, hang onto the grips. 


History:
Bike is a 99 FZS600.
Had a leak in the fuel Tank, took it off and repaired it then coated the inside of the tank with a special epoxy resin.
Tank was stinking inside, cleaned it well before repair, cleared the vents in the base of the tank post epoxy refurb, think they are correct as I seem to get the same noise / volume of air when i blow through them, one is an overflow direct from the top of the tank as it pressurises the tank when you blow into it, the other seems to come from up near the filler.


Bike runs OK but still does not taking the throttle hard.


Replaced the Fuel Filter, origional one seems OK.


Next thought it was the Carbs filled with gunk, possibly a large particle intermittently blocking a jet, removed the carbs and serviced them, think they are spotless.
Replaced the Carb to Inlet rubbers with new ones as they were badly cracked.


Still same problem not taking the throttle.


One of the boys in work says it sounds like vacuum, know I bent the rubber vent tubes when installing the tank, thought that was problem, not, as have cut 2cm off the top to clear and crease in the tubing and reseated correctly.
Still no joy.

Have still to check the Plugs and Plug leads, was going to start them tonight but found out that Car and Bike spark plug sockets are different.
Will get a correct socket tomorrow.

Tank is off the bike at the moment, going to check the air filter. Theory is that cranking open the throttle needs more air, air filter possibly blocked.
Also waiting for it to get dark, going to check for any signs of Plug Hi-tension lead arching to the engine etc.
One of the boys with a vacuum guage has promised the balance the carbs next week.

Any suggestions or an update on where you are would be great.




darrsi

  • GP Hero
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,657
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 00-01
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #21 on: 17 April 2014, 06:37:38 am »
Liking the IPA idea :-) After 10 of them, I won't care :-D

Bunged the carbs back on tonight, was a bugger of a job to get the air filter housing and tubes back onto the carbs, that took the longest, sadly though, was still the same, so, clean as a whistle carbs and not the carbs, maybe.

On one note, any revs above 5k seems to blast through the stuttering, blow 5k and it's tractor time, above 5, it stutters then takes off, change gear and no problem as the revs are high, but then, at those revs and speeds, you don't snap the throttle open anyway, so still stumped. Going to check the caps next me thinks and look at some IPA :-D


Hi Sannox, any update.
Just joined the site, was doing a Google search and found your post.


I am showing the same symptoms.
Bike starts, idols and runs great. Will ride perfectly under normal acceleration but when you crank the throttle it sputters as if its on 3 cylinders, get it past the stuttering and she goes like a rocket, hang onto the grips. 


History:
Bike is a 99 FZS600.
Had a leak in the fuel Tank, took it off and repaired it then coated the inside of the tank with a special epoxy resin.
Tank was stinking inside, cleaned it well before repair, cleared the vents in the base of the tank post epoxy refurb, think they are correct as I seem to get the same noise / volume of air when i blow through them, one is an overflow direct from the top of the tank as it pressurises the tank when you blow into it, the other seems to come from up near the filler.


Bike runs OK but still does not taking the throttle hard.


Replaced the Fuel Filter, origional one seems OK.


Next thought it was the Carbs filled with gunk, possibly a large particle intermittently blocking a jet, removed the carbs and serviced them, think they are spotless.
Replaced the Carb to Inlet rubbers with new ones as they were badly cracked.


Still same problem not taking the throttle.


One of the boys in work says it sounds like vacuum, know I bent the rubber vent tubes when installing the tank, thought that was problem, not, as have cut 2cm off the top to clear and crease in the tubing and reseated correctly.
Still no joy.

Have still to check the Plugs and Plug leads, was going to start them tonight but found out that Car and Bike spark plug sockets are different.
Will get a correct socket tomorrow.

Tank is off the bike at the moment, going to check the air filter. Theory is that cranking open the throttle needs more air, air filter possibly blocked.
Also waiting for it to get dark, going to check for any signs of Plug Hi-tension lead arching to the engine etc.
One of the boys with a vacuum guage has promised the balance the carbs next week.

Any suggestions or an update on where you are would be great.


Take your air filter cover off and see if the air filter is a snug fit, or if it can move about as if you could just chuck it in.
Been a few issues with cheap Hi-Flo air filters that can cause running troubles, i had problems myself with one.
If it looks ill fitting, remove it and take the bike for a quick spin and see if it improves things at all.
More people are born because of alcohol than will ever die from it.

greenman

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 75
    • Main bike:
      FZS 1000 Gen1
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #22 on: 18 April 2014, 08:21:33 pm »
I had same symptoms, tryed every thing as it felt like fuel issues. Carb rubbers were perished, replaced them. Carbs filthy, cleaned them. Filter clogged, replaced it. Plugs, replaced. Nothing made any difference. Replaced plug caps, bike's run like a dream now. On the up side,a lot of hard work but the best service my bike has ever had. So for 20 quid, worth replacing anyway.
There ain't arf been some clever bastards

Sannox

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #23 on: 19 April 2014, 02:15:10 pm »
Back after a week away on holiday, saw loads of bikes, grrrrr :-)

Anyway, just about to bypass the fuel pump so I have direct gravity feed to the carbs, if it runs fine, then it's the pump, not touching anything else yet, the next to look at will be the plugs, I know they are only 2k old but got to be worth a look, as I'm on hols, I grabbed my multimeter from work, my own, not works and will check the plug cap restistances, 13 year old bike now, original plug caps, hmmmmm, the air filter is spotless and seated properly, will post the results of the test blast/fart later :-)

Sannox

  • DAS Born Again
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • Main bike:
      FZS600 02-03
    • View Profile
Re: Carbs or something else, maybe?
« Reply #24 on: 19 April 2014, 03:20:54 pm »
Nope, wasn't that, ran fine but slightly less responsive due to gravity feed I guess, warmed up then crack open the throttle, back to the juddering.........

Carbs clean, air filter clean and seated properly, carb rubbers fine, fuel pump appears fine, all pipes not kinked.........