Tax ''thiefing Scumbags''

[midden]

No bonus! If you overtax the wealthy, they will leave the country, case in point: France (one of their most successful actors, Gérard Depardieu is technically now Russian!) The wealthy put the most in to the system, and typically draw the least (no benefits, often use private health care etc).

On the stepped system, what about the unfortunate middle classes who end up just above that step? They are then clobbered with a disproportionate tax.

You only get taxed the higher rate on the amount over the step/threshold (unlike the santander 123 account which pays interest on whole amount once savings pass the stated threshold ) and you'll find the rich pay amazing accountants to lose large sums of cash to reduce tax obligations

Cease tax free schemes like ISAs

Again, why? If you want things simplified, how are these complicated? There's no need to account for the interest on your tax return and the providers don't have to collect tax and pay it to the government.

ISA's are a teaser the choice is the individuals some think it a con so don't use their allowance. Others, the sensible buy into the system and pay a little less tax. At the end of day the sensible gain from the tax reduction the Government gain tax monies from the suspicious and the suspicious lose by paying higher rate of tax

[alan sherman]

By a flat rate of income tax I do mean just that. Say 30 percent (remember that ni would be included). The richer don't get a bonus. They do get to keep more of what they have earned. However rich people would still pay more tax than poor people (as it is a percentage). The current yoyo of net take home money is ludicrous and needs simplifying.

I have kid (and number 2 is on the way). However child benefit is a nonsense really, I'd be interested to see how much needs to be taken in tax by the government to pay out the 80 quid a month. I'd rather pay less to the state in the first place and manage my own budgeting without the inefficient middle man thanks very much! The truly poor would be the ones to miss out here. That would be those who have income of zero to an amount where the efficiency of scraping the scheme breaks even.

My basic premise is that tax is too complicated. On purpose. It is so us tax payers don't realise just how much is taken from us.

[Dead Eye]

I can't see that tax model working unless there were drastic changes to other taxes to compensate. Since NI is 11% we are already taxed 31% on anything above 10k (as of the latest tax allowance). So raising that tax free allowance to, what? £20k maybe? For a living - which is doable. I would then expect to see income tax skyrocket to 50%+

The richer do get a bonus though - at the moment the tiered system means its 20% on anything between your tax allowance and £32k, then 40% on anything from £32k to £150k and then 45% on anything above £150k

So; assuming a 'rich' person is on £200k per year (gross - before tax), under the current system this is how it breaks down;
£200k minus tax free allowance (assume £10k) = £190k

20% Tax = £32k * 0.20 = £6400
40% Tax = £118k * 0.40 = £47200 (118k is 150k minus the 32k that tax has already been paid on)
45% Tax = £40k * 0.45 = £18000 (40k is the remainder of the total 190k income minus 150k that tax has already been paid on)

Total Tax = £71,600


Under your new system, we would raise the tax free allowance - for the sake of this lets go over the top and make that £12k (the higher this is, the less tax this 'individual' would pay)
So, taxable income is now 200k - 12k = 188k

With a flat rate of 30%, this means;

Total Tax = £188k * 0.30 = £56,400

That's a 15k drop in tax payments for the 'rich' - a 20% difference for this made up individual


This becomes more of a problem for the government the more you earn plus by raising the tax free allowance they lose out on a huge amount of money because a very large majority will be paying in to that first 20% base rate at the moment...


Sorry this went on a bit, I'm just trying to see if there is any way that that system could every work properly? A staged setup (like our current one) is the only way to distribute the volume of taxation such that everything doesn't fall to pieces, as far as I can see.

[alan sherman]

I'd have the personal allowance higher.  I see no point having people pay tax to then return it to them via benefits or tax credits.  Scrap all of the benefits and tax credits then the tax take doesn't need to be so high. 

Not sure where the net effect of benefits vs tax is zero (especially as it is complex due to circumstances and benefits) but there are some interesting examples out there.

There does need to be safety net to catch those made unemployed, sick ill etc, exactly where that should be is part of the issue.

Simpler, so cheaper and easier to administer systems would lower tax.  Would also make accounting cheaper for businesses and individuals.  Also a cut of benefits (but remember - this is balanced by those in work paying less tax) seems a sensible way forward to me.

The alternative of high tax with government redistribution of wealth is not attractive to me.  If you work hard and earn, why shouldn't you be better off?  If you earn a lot why shouldn't you be able to leave this earnt money to your children (or anyone you choose to for that matter)?

I'm not a socialist!  I am someone from a working class background who has worked hard to get an average salary.  I see that if I work a bit harder I'll only see 50% of that money actually come to me.  I can't afford foreign holidays at the moment so don't consider myself 'rich'. 

[alan sherman]

An interesting graphic:
http://www.paydayloan.co.uk/Resources/tax-calculator.html

It doesn't include car / motorbike VED

[Andy FZS]

Just to cheer every one up.....don't forget the tax you pay when you spend your money. Lol
I may be a defeatist but the only way I get to pay less tax is by having less money. So I guess I I'll have to grin and bear it.

[fazersharp]

I do resent paying tax on my savings as I have already paid tax when I earned them.
Isas were intruduced to encourage people to save, but now what this country need is people to spend

[Lawrence]

I do resent paying tax on my savings as I have already paid tax when I earned them.
Isas were intruduced to encourage people to save, but now what this country need is people to spend

But you're paying tax on the interest earned on your savings aren't you?  Which is income tax as you're making money?

[richfzs]

Making money? Hardly, with the way interest rates and inflation are sitting!

[Lawrence]

Making money? Hardly, with the way interest rates and inflation are sitting!

Hardly, but you are.  If you stick £1000 in a savings account for a year you'll have £1005 at the end so you pay income tax on the £5 you earn.

[Andy FZS]

Unfortunately that £1005 can by then probably buy you less than the £1000 you saved and then you pay tax....

[Lawrence]

Unfortunately that £1005 can by then probably buy you less than the £1000 you saved and then you pay tax....

But that's down to inflation, not tax...

[cfoley]

So what you are saying is we would be better off spending our savings now on things we will need in the future... things like a new bike.

[Andy FZS]

Great idea

[richfzs]

Once you've paid the tax on the 5 quid, what you've got left will buy less than the £1000 you had at the start of the year, thanks to inflation. Yes you've got more money, as in more pounds, but less wealth, which ultimately is the important thing, and what we mean when we say we're making money. We are getting less rich.

[Lawrence]

Once you've paid the tax on the 5 quid, what you've got left will buy less than the £1000 you had at the start of the year, thanks to inflation. Yes you've got more money, as in more pounds, but less wealth, which ultimately is the important thing, and what we mean when we say we're making money. We are getting less rich.

Yes, which is down to the pony interest rate.  Once that starts to go up again then savings will be making money.  Until then it's as you say.

So what you are saying is we would be better off spending our savings now on things we will need in the future... things like a new bike.

Exactly

[midden]

If taxes were significantly reduced do not think in the long term wages would also reduce. So foccers of the future would be having the same debate but arguing against flat rate tax.

[Razgruff]

So this goes around the same old loop, benefit scroungers, And how we would tax each other.

No mention of Bank bail outs, Rail subsidies oil industry subsidies, I mean if these companies need subsidies how come they can pay share holders dividends ?

If I run a company into the ground does the government give me free insurance, for when I fuck a job up?
Shore up my dodgy practices.
Does the government allow me to keep the big house fast cars and massive wine seller I obtained with the bonuses I paid myself while running my company into the ground?
Does the government allow me to retire or continue in my job on a massive salary still receiving all my benefits?

Does the government Tax office ask me to pop in to the office and discuss how much Tax I would like to pay ?

And what if the government does get it's act together and start to sort this out.
Well I just threaten to fuck off somewhere else lol.

What happens if I fuck up is I end up homeless and skint (been there done that)
What happens is the banks fuck up, I ended up homeless and skint.

All I ask is fair treatment from the tax system.
will it happen never ????????????   

[fazersharp]

Razgruff -------for PM gets, my vote

[Dead Eye]

Definitely touched on some important points. There are sooo many things "wrong" (by opinion) that its hard to keep track of them all... I wonder if that's something the government relies on... make us all squabble over which issues are more important / relevant

Anyway, I digress. If you like the idea of trying to run your own government and enjoy games, I've heard some interesting things about a game called Democracy 3 - it's simulation engine seems quite interesting. http://store.steampowered.com/app/245470/

I haven't personally tried it as it's price tag is a bit too high for me to bite, but thought I'd mention it

[Mattsplat]

Pah, complaining about taxes...

I live in a country that has 42% tax rate, I pay about £200 per year road tax for my bike, 21% VAT and have to pay for private medical insurance.

Would I move back to the UK, no way!
My lifestyle here is sooo much better, hardly any crime, no hospital waiting lists, better benefit system, clean streets, no yobs etc etc etc...

I could go on and on about the advantages of living in a 'more expensive' country but I'd just make you jealous 

The UK only looks good when your 'in it', step outside for a while and you'll see that the system isn't that great after all. There is no great in Great Britain anymore 

[esetest]

very much nearer to crime free , where do you live , I'm moving to your part of the country .

But I am so glad I live in a civilisation where you get educated, your health is looked after, our nation is kept very much nearer to crime free.

[chris.biker]

very much nearer to crime free , where do you live , I'm moving to your part of the country .

But I am so glad I live in a civilisation where you get educated, your health is looked after, our nation is kept very much nearer to crime free.

Well I live in a nice bit i guess, but I would like to think Britain's worst spots are far better than many parts in the world.

[esetest]

I agree there are far worst places to live than Britain , although after the weekend I have an axe and a wrecking bar under the bed . As for tax if I was earning £150k a year I would be happy to pay 50% tax but I know I would be in a minority on that  , although I don't believe all the rich would flee abroad as it was higher under Thatcher and they did alright out of it .
I'm also glad we are  allowed to express different opinions and have a moan , nobody will ever agree on tax .
 

very much nearer to crime free , where do you live , I'm moving to your part of the country .

But I am so glad I live in a civilisation where you get educated, your health is looked after, our nation is kept very much nearer to crime free.

Well I live in a nice bit i guess, but I would like to think Britain's worst spots are far better than many parts in the world.

[Grahamm]

No bonus! If you overtax the wealthy, they will leave the country, case in point: France (one of their most successful actors, Gérard Depardieu is technically now Russian!) The wealthy put the most in to the system, and typically draw the least (no benefits, often use private health care etc).

I'm not talking about ridiculous levels of taxation (eg back in the 1970s in the UK it was theoretically possible to be on a 95% tax rate!) but it seems fair to me that the biggest burden falls on those with the broadest shoulders.

And I disagree that the wealthy put the most in, they simply can afford to save more which the less well-off cannot.

On the stepped system, what about the unfortunate middle classes who end up just above that step? They are then clobbered with a disproportionate tax.

No, because all earnings up to that threshold pay tax at the lower percentage and only that which is earned above the threshold gets taxed at the higher rate.

Cease child benefit.

Why? Is this "If you can't afford kids, you shouldn't have them" attitude to stop the poor from breeding??

I prefer the earlier suggestion: cap it at a set number of children to prevent benefit fraud.

So if you have more than the state approved number of children, you're a benefits fraudster???

Cease tax free schemes like ISAs

Again, why? If you want things simplified, how are these complicated? There's no need to account for the interest on your tax return and the providers don't have to collect tax and pay it to the government.

I think this ties in with the flat tax idea. You get taxed on all the money you have, but it's a flat rate.

Which hits the less well off harder.

Flat rate VAT doesn't mean it needs to hike up (although it probably would)...

IIRC The UK had to fight to get exemptions on books and childrens' clothes and a reduced level of VAT on things like gas and electricity, the original EU plan was for *everything* to be charged at one rate and part of the agreement was that no other goods would be included subsequently.

But, again, VAT hits the less well off harder.