Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZS600 Fazer => Topic started by: simonm on 19 September 2013, 10:56:20 am
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Whilst looking to see if thundercat brake levers would fit on a FZS600 I wondered why it's widely stated that the Fazer (95bhp) is based on a detuned thundercat (89BHP) engine.
How is it detuned if it has more power than the thundercat ? (I understand the thundercat probably has more low end and maybe through the rev range due to the ram-air doo dah ?)
It looks like the Thundercat has 87.7 bhp @ 11,250RPM whilst the Fazer has 95 bhp @ 11,500RPM. The Thundercat is allegedly 223kg and the Fazer 189kg. Surely the weight makes up for some of the lack of power ?
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that the seating position and front forks and fairing make the Thundercat a quicker bike, I'm just wondering how the engine is 'detuned', it sounds like an insult since at certain times (??) it will be more powerful than it's brethren.
I know Punk likes the Thundercat and that is enough for me to safely believe that it is a cracking bike, this is not supposed to be a criticism of either bike, just a question.
I wonder if anyone can point me to a dyno from a stock Thundercat and a stock FZS as that may shed some light on it for me.
TIA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF600R (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF600R)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_FZS600_Fazer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_FZS600_Fazer)
http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-reviews/yamaha/fzs600-fazer/ (http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-reviews/yamaha/fzs600-fazer/)
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That would be because you are measuring the power at two different locations haha
The 87.7 bhp of the Thundercat is at the Rear Wheel whereas the 95 bhp of the Fazer is at the crank
Rear Wheel horsepower is always less than when measured at the crank. I think the Fazer is around 80 bhp (complete guess) at the crank?
Edit:
Look at these pages for some reference - Rear Wheel bhp for Thundercat is listed as 91 bhp and the Fazer as 83.3 bhp (I was pretty close with my guess ^^)
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_fzs600_fazer%2098.htm (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_fzs600_fazer%2098.htm)
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_yzf600r%2098.htm (http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/yamaha/yamaha_yzf600r%2098.htm)
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All the info ive seen on here about the subject states that the fazer isnt really based on the thundercat but does have some common parts but basically different bikes hence you cant put a thundercat engine in a fazer or vice versa.
It is something the press picked up on & kinda an urban legend.
Hope that helps
Thundercats are nice though, always liked them 8) , probably suits my riding style better but i still love my :faz
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The Cat's dry weight is actually 187kg vs the Fazer's 189kg
Power-wise you're the wrong way round, they are virtually the same until the top of the rev-range, where the cat pulls another 7 or 8 ponies. The Fazer makes about 80 @ the back wheel while the cat makes almost 90. The Cat uses downdraught carbs that probably flow better whereas the FZS carbs are more conventional, ramair type airbox system probably gives the top-end extra shunt too.
The aerodynamics of a full fairing give the cat another 10mph over the FZS. Cat suspension (particularly front) also p1sses over standard Fazer suspension, so a much better 'performance' bike, just not as comfortable. I was actually going to get a Cat but someone swapped their Fzs600 for my old bike & cash.....
Actually, it's probably better to think of both the Thundercat and Fazer's engines being heavily based on their predecessor - the FZR600R (1994-1995). Both are variations, the Cat a more powerful update of the deltabox / airbox-where-the-petrol-tank-should-be sportsbike setup, the Fazer a more conventional airbox behind carbs setup. You can certainly blame it when your 2nd gear starts slipping out....the part numbers for rebuild date back to the FZR :(
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All the info ive seen on here about the subject states that the fazer isnt really based on the thundercat but does have some common parts but basically different bikes hence you cant put a thundercat engine in a fazer or vice versa.
It is something the press picked up on & kinda an urban legend.
A lot of the reason for not being able to put the sports bike motor of a bike into the naked version is to do with the intakes. On the sports bike they are pointing upwards and on the naked, parallel with the road. You physically don't have any room for the carbs to fit between the top frame rails and then there is no space for the airbox as the fuel tank is in the way.
On the inside there are probably lots of differences, but on the outside they do look like very similar motors.
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Thanks everyone, just what I was looking for. Learning is fun :lol
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Whilst looking to see if thundercat brake levers would fit on a FZS600 I wondered why it's widely stated that the Fazer (95bhp) is based on a detuned thundercat (89BHP) engine.
How is it detuned if it has more power than the thundercat ? (I understand the thundercat probably has more low end and maybe through the rev range due to the ram-air doo dah ?)
It looks like the Thundercat has 87.7 bhp @ 11,250RPM whilst the Fazer has 95 bhp @ 11,500RPM. The Thundercat is allegedly 223kg and the Fazer 189kg. Surely the weight makes up for some of the lack of power ?
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that the seating position and front forks and fairing make the Thundercat a quicker bike, I'm just wondering how the engine is 'detuned', it sounds like an insult since at certain times (??) it will be more powerful than it's brethren.
I know Punk likes the Thundercat and that is enough for me to safely believe that it is a cracking bike, this is not supposed to be a criticism of either bike, just a question.
I wonder if anyone can point me to a dyno from a stock Thundercat and a stock FZS as that may shed some light on it for me.
TIA
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF600R[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF600R[/url])
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_FZS600_Fazer[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_FZS600_Fazer[/url])
[url]http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-reviews/yamaha/fzs600-fazer/[/url] ([url]http://www.carolenash.com/insidebikes/bike-reviews/yamaha/fzs600-fazer/[/url])
Other note Simon is that ram air only works at high speeds. It's basically a very basic form of a turbo - you have scoops at the front which when riding, send air into the airbox. The quicker you go, the more air is forced into the airbox! Was an experiment done (I'll see if I can find the write up) on a ZX9R (one of the first big sports bikes to have a proper ram air system) - whilst around town it doesn't make a difference, at speeds of about 140+ the ram air essentially added about 6hp to the bike!
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http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/ (http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/)
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Very interesting Joe, & thats even before ive looked at the link.
Explains how pointless it is all the boy racers putting these scoops on their car grills as it takes a car so long to get to high speed in the uk that its worthless......a bike however is surprisingly easy to get to these speeds..
Got me thinking now of how to incorporate a bit of forced air for the fazer......just for the crack....if im totally honest i would like it allot better if it also sounded the shizny...i had a K&N typhoon on my type-r & the sound that thing made was worth the sound alone even if it didnt make any hp change. 8)
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Explains how pointless it is all the boy racers putting these scoops on their car grills as it takes a car so long to get to high speed in the uk that its worthless.
A few years ago me and a mate tried it with a 1.8 carbed VW Jetta, took a headlight out and made a scoop direct to the carb. The idea being that the larger diameter of the scoop leading to the smaller diameter of the carb throat would increase the intake speed and therefore engine power.
It made one hell of a difference in performance.
The carb iced up almost immediately and the engine wouldn't tick over. :lol
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From magazines:
Cats have about 10hp more than fazer at dyno. Add some horses at high speed. But despite yamaha said, cats are about 10kg heavier than fazers.
I just was looking at this right now. Check the "first thing to do" for cats :lol . I am glad I went to the Fazer/Ace way! :
http://s642.photobucket.com/user/woodpants/media/PB%20Suspension%20Set-Up%20Mannual/04b439ec.gif.html?sort=6&o=32 (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/woodpants/media/PB%20Suspension%20Set-Up%20Mannual/04b439ec.gif.html?sort=6&o=32)
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Check the "first thing to do" for cats :lol .
LOL. :)
I'd go for an R6, or a GSXR for a more racing bike, not the heavy fazer's older brother.
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Very interesting Joe, & thats even before ive looked at the link.
Explains how pointless it is all the boy racers putting these scoops on their car grills as it takes a car so long to get to high speed in the uk that its worthless......a bike however is surprisingly easy to get to these speeds..
Got me thinking now of how to incorporate a bit of forced air for the fazer......just for the crack....if im totally honest i would like it allot better if it also sounded the shizny...i had a K&N typhoon on my type-r & the sound that thing made was worth the sound alone even if it didnt make any hp change. 8)
When I had my FZR1000 EXUP, I once enquired of a tuning firm if they could make it ram air (it has the "hoover" tubes, but they only actually deliver air to the area around the cam box - not sure why Yam did this). The firm in question said they'd been trying to achieve this with an RC30 Honda for some months, "several thousand pounds spent so far", and they still hadn't got it right! I remember from somewhere that Kawasaki spent ages and a fortune perfecting their ram air systems. Air boxes are apparently very sensitive things, full of baffle plates and chambers of various sizes etc, not easy to design for best effect.
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As I have the Thundercat donor bike I'd wondered about the ram air system being transfered to the fazer but my skills lack for that much, as far as I can tell it would require changing the carbs too, and I'm not sure if that would mean also swapping ecu's, as there's a lot of questions and all my work is done out on the road I don't think It's feasible for me, especially as the maximum time I'd have to play would be a weekend as I'd need it running for work!
People should stop thinking the bikes share this and share that, they don't, there's probably a handful of things at most.
The extra power of the cat is definitely noticeable, the ram air system isn't just a tube straight into the air box, there's 2 extra (smaller) air boxes in either fairing which the front scoops feed first then it goes into the airbox, obviously the size and shape of these side air boxes do some wizardry to the air flow and possibly density!
I do prefer the cat, just for the extra bit of power and its just as comfortable to me as the fazer!
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As I have the Thundercat donor bike I'd wondered about the ram air system being transfered to the fazer but my skills lack for that much, as far as I can tell it would require changing the carbs too, and I'm not sure if that would mean also swapping ecu's, as there's a lot of questions and all my work is done out on the road I don't think It's feasible for me, especially as the maximum time I'd have to play would be a weekend as I'd need it running for work!
People should stop thinking the bikes share this and share that, they don't, there's probably a handful of things at most.
The extra power of the cat is definitely noticeable, the ram air system isn't just a tube straight into the air box, there's 2 extra (smaller) air boxes in either fairing which the front scoops feed first then it goes into the airbox, obviously the size and shape of these side air boxes do some wizardry to the air flow and possibly density!
I do prefer the cat, just for the extra bit of power and its just as comfortable to me as the fazer!
It probably makes more sense to street fighter a T/cat, than add t/cat bits to a Fazer.
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As I have the Thundercat donor bike I'd wondered about the ram air system being transfered to the fazer but my skills lack for that much, as far as I can tell it would require changing the carbs too, and I'm not sure if that would mean also swapping ecu's, as there's a lot of questions and all my work is done out on the road I don't think It's feasible for me, especially as the maximum time I'd have to play would be a weekend as I'd need it running for work!
People should stop thinking the bikes share this and share that, they don't, there's probably a handful of things at most.
The extra power of the cat is definitely noticeable, the ram air system isn't just a tube straight into the air box, there's 2 extra (smaller) air boxes in either fairing which the front scoops feed first then it goes into the airbox, obviously the size and shape of these side air boxes do some wizardry to the air flow and possibly density!
I do prefer the cat, just for the extra bit of power and its just as comfortable to me as the fazer!
It probably makes more sense to street fighter a T/cat, than add t/cat bits to a Fazer.
Exactly Nick,
Funnily enough I was thinking the other day isn't it strange that there's a few of us out there making our 'comfortable' sports tourer more sporty, then you have the likes of sports bike riders doing the opposite when doing the streetfighter thing!
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A lot of us are guilty of that tho Stig. Here's me considering R1 forks and an R6 shock for mine. Just cos it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I guess... :\ Are we in search of the perfect compromise, and if so, is there any hope of finding it?
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[url]http://s642.photobucket.com/user/woodpants/media/PB%20Suspension%20Set-Up%20Mannual/04b439ec.gif.html?sort=6&o=32[/url] ([url]http://s642.photobucket.com/user/woodpants/media/PB%20Suspension%20Set-Up%20Mannual/04b439ec.gif.html?sort=6&o=32[/url])
[url]http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/[/url] ([url]http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9508_ram/[/url])
Both brilliant links. Thank you.
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A lot of us are guilty of that tho Stig. Here's me considering R1 forks and an R6 shock for mine. Just cos it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I guess... :\ Are we in search of the perfect compromise, and if so, is there any hope of finding it?
Well mine started because one of my fork legs was bent and I had no money but a written off Tcat just sitting there so it made sense to swap shit over for free,
Buuuut, ultimately, for those of us that do just the smallest mod even of its wheel rim stripes and dust caps I think its just because we want that personal feeling that, that particular bike is ours and in our minds its unique!
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I've been racking my brains (simple task!) to try to think of something different to do to mine, but it all seems to have been done before. Short of having a full engineering workshop and the skills to use it, I guess it'll have to remain pretty much bolt-on goodies for me :(
But I do love these bikes even as standard, so nowt really to complain of :)
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I saw a thundercat today for the first time. It looks lovely. They seem very rare compared to the fazers etc.
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That shouldn't be the case, they were sold for two years longer than the Fzs600 & were meant to be steady sellers.
However I agree, they are comparatively rare.
Perhaps the extra 8 ponies means they've all blown up.
Or more likely 2nd gear has gone on them....
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They are definitely prone to a gearbox problem, but can't remember exactly what - we had one sitting round the workshop at the last bike shop I worked in (belonged to the shop) for months because we just didn't have the time to strip it down.
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Theres only 2.3 thousand registered thundercats on the road at present. :(
& about 7 thousand fazer 600's 8)
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They were never that big a seller to be honest, around that period in the 90s most people went for the CBR600F if they wanted a practical bike, or the GSXR/Ninja if they wanted a bit more of a nutter - the Thundercat was seen as a bit of an overweight middleground, shame really as its one of the last proper 600 sports bikes that you could do absolutely everything on!
The FZS 6 on the other hand was a bloody well selling bike throughout its entire life time, was still selling well before it was forced out by the FZ6 due to emissions laws!
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They are definitely prone to a gearbox problem, but can't remember exactly what - we had one sitting round the workshop at the last bike shop I worked in (belonged to the shop) for months because we just didn't have the time to strip it down.
I only had 2nd gear probs on my 120,000 miler,
They were never that big a seller to be honest, around that period in the 90s most people went for the CBR600F if they wanted a practical bike, or the GSXR/Ninja if they wanted a bit more of a nutter - the Thundercat was seen as a bit of an overweight middleground, shame really as its one of the last proper 600 sports bikes that you could do absolutely everything on!
The FZS 6 on the other hand was a bloody well selling bike throughout its entire life time, was still selling well before it was forced out by the FZ6 due to emissions laws!
I think at the time Honda was winning everything which is why the cbr won sales, I was quite surprised when I read earlier this year there was only 2000 thundercats left in the uk.
Funnily I always found 2nd hand parts more valuable for the fazer than the cat
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[size=78%]Exactly Nick,[/size]
Funnily enough I was thinking the other day isn't it strange that there's a few of us out there making our 'comfortable' sports tourer more sporty, then you have the likes of sports bike riders doing the opposite when doing the streetfighter thing!
In Serbia,
a streetfighter = wracked sportsbike that owner couldn't afford to change fairings, and/or instruments, lights.
a sports-tourer = not enough money for a decent GSXR, or an R6/R1 (since roads are so bad that you need an enduro bike for real touring)
a sports bike = puberty (chicks magnet), or midlife crisis, since there really aren't any roads good enough for riding sports bike like it should be ridden, and a few race tracks in Serbia are just good for carting cars, or perhaps a super-moto style riding
a super-moto bike = (ex) racers that really can ride well and fast
enduro bike = what would be an averaga sports-tourer user in Germany, or a weed loving hippie - depending on the age and model of the bike. :)
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People should stop thinking the bikes share this and share that, they don't, there's probably a handful of things at most.
It's all an urban myth created by Haynes because they couldn't be arsed to publish two separate manuals. ;)
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People should stop thinking the bikes share this and share that, they don't, there's probably a handful of things at most.
It's all an urban myth created by Haynes because they couldn't be arsed to publish two separate manuals. ;)
Hey I'm happy with Haynes, I've had 2 fazers and 2 Tcat's, but only one manual required, win!
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Interesting thread this. I owned two T/cats back in 98 & 99. Yes, they were not the most sought after 'sportsbike' as the other makes always attracted more attention. Looks were another factor, T/cat was different. Whilst owning the T/cat I also rode friends Honda CBR6's. I far prefered T/cat for a number of reasons. Comfort, midrange, airbox sound & more. Just a shame the frame was steel, not ali. I then went on to acquire a ZX6R as it was lighter, but not better! I still have my ZX6R but always hanker after a T/cat again.
Comparing my T/cats with my existing Fazer 600, well it's not a fair comparison. As you would expect, Tcat has more power & far better suspension. But they are different & made for different tasks. Both excellent bikes.
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Just a shame the frame was steel, not ali. excellent bikes.
Thundercats have an Aluminium alloy frame!
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No, they haven't. I think even the swing arm is steel. They weigh almost as much as Aces because of it.
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Just a shame the frame was steel, not ali. excellent bikes.
Thundercats have an Aluminium alloy frame!
Sorry Stig, but I'd always thought it was a deltabox steel frame too?
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I was going by the Haynes manual, you trying to say they lied to me about this?
I thought Haynes was gospel and no one ever questioned it,
Like in order to change the rear wheel spindle the front fairing, headlight unit and carburettors must first be removed!
Everyone does that, right? I mean that's why it's £400 to change a rear tyre!
Apologies, I'd never questioned the history I'd read!
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Ooops, have I started something here...? I'm pretty sure both my T/cats were steel as rust appeared when scratched, (both mine were damaged repairables-Yamaha bike link insurance sell off). I'm prepared to be corrected of course. Maybe the later examples were ali...? Mine were 97 & 98 models.
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/\ sarcasm never comes across that well in text!
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I was going by the Haynes manual, you trying to say they lied to me about this?
I thought Haynes was gospel and no one ever questioned it,
Like in order to change the rear wheel spindle the front fairing, headlight unit and carburettors must first be removed!
Everyone does that, right? I mean that's why it's £400 to change a rear tyre!
Apologies, I'd never questioned the history I'd read!
Haynes also has a wrong schematic picture for the fazer forks, from a different bike. Worse: the fork schematic of the 2000 Yamaha supplemetary manual misses a part.
The only place to find right a 2000- fazer fork is the parts catalogue :rolleyes
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According to wiki its steel deltabox...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF600R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF600R)
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gentlemen i have only 1 thing to say on this matter
a few quid makes a FAZER what it needs to be ! ! !
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A friend had a Thundercat a few years ago and the Fazer was faster 50 to 80 mph, but over 80mph the Thundercat would fly.
Any part number beginning with 4TV for the fazer is a Thunder cat part number and many of the gears and main shaft in the fazer gearbox are 4TV including 2nd gear
To put the record straight as regards the power output see below specification as per Yamaha Brochure for both, there was no change in the quoted power output throughout the life of either. Power quoted is metric HP
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Interesting...36mm vs 33mm carbs, and all for a claimed 5hp extra, not much difference at all.
Am thinking now that because the T'cat had both a steel frame and swingarm, the claimed 187kg dry weight is sheer fiction...
Can anyone confirm whether the Fazer is actually 189kg dry / 210kg wet?
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Official figures are:
Fazer 600
1998-1999 Weight with oil and Full tank is 210Kg
2000-2001 Weight with oil and Full tank is 212Kg
2002-2003 Weight with oil and Full tank is 214Kg
Difference between the 600s is most likely due larger capacity Tank, cannot really see any other reason
Fazer 400
1997-1998 Weight with oil and Full tank is 199Kg
Some differences which would change the weight, No grab rail, smaller carbs, smaller pistons, no oil cooler, no fuel pump, smaller chain and sprockets
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Had a '96 Cat.. Not sure how they got the 187kg dry weight figure? .. Wow you wouldnt want one landing on ya toe :eek
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All I know is: I enjoy riding my Foxeye more than my VFR 12... (no, really)
In fact I'm keeping the Foxeye, selling the Viffer and getting a MT-09 Tracer to replace it
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Nice interesting discussion.
I'm in the process of selling my Tcat, that I've had for 6 years and 26k miles, and can confirm that the frame and swing arm are steel. Which does make it a heavy thing.
The Fz1S that I have just bought is a lot easier to man handle into and out of the garage. The riding position is a lot better as well, now I'm getting on a bit. :b
Loved the Tcat though, unfortunately she has to go. :(
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I still feel nostalgic about my old FZR600R fox eye. A better looking older brother of the 'Cat (but lacked the blue spot calipers, though they bolt straight on). My mate has still got his.
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i`ve had my boxeye for over 4 years now had cbr , gsxr ,zx6r ,bandit6, and a zzr600 in past (i have short legs) never had a cat but found that even as standard the fazer is alot better than a bandit speed and handling, i did the piggy back gen 1 rear shock mod and thicker oil and spacers in front legs a couple years ago which made a big difference, then last year r6 rear + some different front springs (cheers jeff) kebab )) spent time tweeking and fidling to get a happy set up now handles great gearing is down 1 on front up 1 on rear goes like a rocket pulls out of corners like a misile and is well planted it shows alot of bigger stuff up ! went to germany last year and on autobounds saw 140+ and still had some left
but im not interested in top end 0-ton is more fun and to be honest spend more time 60-120mph where its fun and carving corners is just a delight and at end of day when all mates backs and wrists are aching etc "i`m just chilled" :) :) :)
oh n i got £1500 in her not £7k + like the plastic rocket crew