engine oil pressure light coming on, and then off

[mike.sg]

Hey everyone,


My first post!


So I just bought my bike, an old Gen I. Everything seemed to be working well, until recently when the oil pressure light starting coming on.


I went back to the shop, and they added about 300ml of oil, and the light went away.


Soon enough though, the oil level dropped from above the max level on the sight window, to its current position between the max and min levels, and had stayed that way since.


However, yesterday, the light started coming on again. It turns on even when I'm just riding along on flat stretches, and will often just turn itself off after a while (within 3 minutes).


So, I suspect I am dealing with a faulty sensor? Is this something to worry about if the oil does never drops below the min level in the sight window?


How should I go about finding out the cause of this warning light turning on?


Thanks guys!


regards,
michael

[karlo]

It's an oil level light not an oil pressure light and what you are saying is correct it will come on when the level drops.

Hope that helps 

[Falcon 269]

Hi and welcome, Mike

It's a well known thing with the Gen 1 Fazer and the early R1s to have the oil level light come on if the level is mid-way between the marks.  The sensor will be fine, it's just that the relationship between the sight lines and the sensor isn't quite perfect.  Keep the level up towards the top line and you'll have no issues in future. 

Cheers!

Mike

[mike.sg]

Thanks for the welcome and the speedy responses. This is certainly a community that works!




Ok, so I have nothing to worry about if the oil is still visible in the sight glass? Are you saying that if the oil is (almost) exactly at the mid point, the light will come on on some bikes?


What about the drain rate: After my 'shop added about 300+ml of oil to bring it above the max level, it drained off rather quickly (in 1 week) to apparently stabilise at the mid way mark. I assume that is normal, and there are mechanisms (crankcase breather tube?) to drain this excess out? How much oil consumption would it take for worn out piston rings to be implicated as a fault?


Is it right to say that a proper 'fix' would be to change the oil level sensor, something that is not easily DIY-able, and would cost more money than it's worth?


It's nothing, I know, but having a red light stare at you when you're about to launch into 8000+ rpm territory is not the way to go, especially since I have ever experienced engine seizure (on a small 2 stroke, that is).

[chitsu]

As stated above the light is for 'OIL LEVEL' & NOT oil pressure, I personally have not had to top up my oil on my own bike this year, but I have only covered about 800 miles!
I have found that you need to have the oil level right at the top of the sight glass with nothing to about a 1mm gap at the top.
Unfortunately there isnt a fix it's just a niggle with these bikes (also mentioned above).
 
I have had several Gen 1's in the past & I did have one that used about 250ml of oil every 250 miles, which isnt acceptable (this bike was a low mileage bike with known history too!). Oil consumptions can vary. It all depends on mileages, how they have been maintained & how they have been used. If it is using 300ml in say 3,000 miles I would not say it isnt worth worrying about at the moment, but then again it still isnt great. If it's using 300ml in 300 miles then the obvious thing is to look for external leaks first, if non found I would then do a compression test.
 
chitsu.

[tomlinscote]

Had mine from new (2004) and Sunday morning I was about 1 mile into my journey home, about 500 miles from my folks when the oil light came on, bugger I thought (!) but as the bike warmed up it went off and later on I looked at the glass and the level was halfway between the marks which is not enough for the sensor, as the bike is due its annual oil change I reckon its not bad usage, 200ml or so for r5k miles. Though it has never needed a top up between services before.......
At least its not a GS needing a litre or so per 1000 miles!!

[yamahasan]

I would be carefull with that: if there are no leaks and oil level drops easily....... you know what I mean. It happened to me on another type of Yam (Virago 1100; oil light on&off) and it was ok for a long time untill one day I pushed hard and blew a cylinder. IMHO you should do a compression check

[Falcon 269]

Like chitsu said, no fix (nor none needed) for the sensor ... it is what it is.

These motors can hide oil as many have fretted about over the years.  If you want to get an accurate oil level reading, go for a ride, come back and leave the bike on the sidestand initially.  Then after 5 mins or so, put it on the centrestand and leave it be for a few minutes more.  What you see then is pretty much as good as it gets.

Top up the oil level as necessary to get to the top line.  Some advocate adding a drop more but too much isn't good, either.  Be sure at least to leave a bubble at the top of the sight glass.

The spec sheet says oil consumption can be as high as a litre every 1000 miles - yes, that much!  FWIW, I had a '99 R1 which I babied too much on running-in and switched early to fully synthetic oil.  That motor used about 500ml per 1000 miles.  My '02 Gen 1 had a tougher upbringing and doesn't use a drop between oil changes at nearly 50k miles now.

I doubt you have much of a problem to worry about.  Check the level as suggested and repeat for a few hundred miles until you've put your mind at rest.

[mike.sg]

so, I'm getting rather relieved, and yet, not quite so.

I got the bike, rode it for about 1500 miles with no issues before the oil warning light came on. Since then, the oil level has been topped up once, but has dropped quickly (within 1 week/300mi) to the mid way point.

It seems like the oil level likes to stay constant for my bike at the mid way mark. I suppose that is normal?

Riding back home last night, the red light came on again when I was riding easily, and then, when I decided to push it slightly, it went off. I suppose this is a symptom that the sensor is wonky?

Also, as a gauge how much oil should I top up to bring the level in the sight window from min to max? or how about midway to max? I can eyeball it myself, but if people here know the volumes, it'd help greatly!

Thanks Falcon (and everyone else!), I'll definitely be bending over to look at the sight glass for the next few weeks! Would you say that if there's oil in that window, the sensor warning can be safely ignored? (assuming no catastrophic leaks along the way, of course).

[mike.sg]

er, does it help to say that the bike's seen over 90k miles? And I have no service history, so I can only assume that there have been no piston/ring changes...

what is the typical replacement interval for piston rings anyway?

I've just topped up about 300ml, bringing the oil level from min to about 2/3 to max. I'll see how quickly the oil goes, if at all.

[mike.sg]

Also, anybody know at which level the light is supposed to come on, if the switch is working normally?

[Falcon 269]

The higher mileage might result in increased oil consumption but there are plenty of Gen 1s out there with well over 100k miles that have had no major work on the engine internals.

There's not many who've replaced pistons or rings, and no 'typical' replacement mileage, either.  If the oil consumption increases on these, it tends to be inlet valve guide seals that are the culprit.

The light will tend to come on around midway between the lines or lower when accelerating hard.  Again, no hard and fast level to tell you on this.  The switch is working normally because it's warning you when the oil level is lower than full

Just keep the oil level topped well up and don't lose any more sleep over it.   

[mike.sg]

Thanks Falcon, you do set my mind at ease.

One further question though-how would you go about diagnosing inlet valve guide seal leaks? And, is it safe to say that the fix for this is generally inexpensive?

[Falcon 269]

There's no 100% test for inlet valve guide seals, Mike, it's more of a diagnosis based on things like when you detect oil smoke, compression testing and so on.  It's not until you do a strip down to rebuild an engine that's burning excessive (and I mean excessive!) amounts of oil that you find out for sure.

The fix is time-consuming and thus expensive if done by a dealership.  You'd be better off looking for a good low-mileage engine from a breaker in that situation.

[Dave48]

Hi Mike, Put your mind at rest & just keep the oil between the midway point & upper mark on sight glass. Theres lots of factors affect oil consumption some of which you can do nothing about eg how the engine was treated during its early life(running in). As Falcon says dont start worrying about expensive engine stripdowns. If the worst happens you can get a good second hand engine for a lot less money than a dealer would charge for engine work-its the labour cost that bumps up the bill and replacement engine parts from Yamaha will dent your wallet!
Do you have any mechanical knowledge? Even a little will do for starters. Buy yourself a Haynes manual. Because you have no service history with bike,start doing the service jobs from scratch-at least youll be able to keep the bike in the best condition possible. Get to know how everything works-even doing the basic jobs like oil & filter change(do you know WHEN the filter was last changed?) will save you money . There are plenty of helpful & knowledgeable forum members-there may even be one or two close to you that you can get help from if you need it. I only ever use the dealer as a last resort these days due to cost considerations but its satisfying to do the job yourself and know exactly whats been done! With luck & a bit of mechanical sympathy your engine will give you many more miles of pleasure

[mike.sg]

Thanks Dave,

I have a very basic mechanical competency, having previously done a bit of DIY on an Aprilia RS125. I have downloaded the Yamaha Service Manual, and been leafing through it now and then. The only downside for me is that I do not have a garage to work in (i live in an apartment), so while I will do what I can, I can't do much.

I understand that bit about the satisfaction of doing things myself, and get the vibe from my local 'shop that he's too eager to sell me an overhaul for no good reason. Which is why I'm trying to find out for sure what's wrong with the bike myself.

Like you and others suggest, there' nothing wrong, so, ok, I'll go take a chill pill or five, and just continue to monitor.

Oh. Also, does it matter if the bike did not seem to have any oil level issues for about 1500 mi since the last oil change before suddenly developing this issue?

[Dave48]

The engine may have been overfilled at oil change-in which case it would take a while for the oil level to drop to the point where it triggered the sensor light. I appreciatenot everyone has the luxury of a warm dry place to work on their bike. Try & find a local "foccer" with facilities to help you out. Example (from my own bikes service history: Oil & filter change Bill was £100.-previous owner)  When I do it its oil & filter say £35 max. Saving £65 for petrol!  

[mike.sg]

woah. 65 quid is a lot.

on the other hand, as a parent, I find it hard to justify to the missus that I need to spend time working on the bike, and not on, say, bringing the kid out to play.

[Falcon 269]

Kids love oil and spanners.  Get 'em interested early.  They'll learn more than you realise and it a bit of mechanical engineering know-how always comes in handy in life.

[tomlinscote]

Then when you are too old to do the spannering or just CBA you can get your nipper to do it for you in exchange for meals new clothes a roof over his/her head etc etc

[mike.sg]

the little 'un is still young (3+) and I don't quite completely trust him with a fork and spoon, let alone a screwdriver, lol

But yes, that sounds like a plan. Gotta start scheming this early to convince her that it's 'educational' and all that!

[Dave48]

When my 2 sons were little we lived in a flat & I didnt get a separate garage for a few years-you can guess what was stored in the (large) bedroom cupboard! Taught both to ride bicycles ASAP & both learnt to ride an automatic moped as soon as they could reach ground from seat.
Eldest son never showed interest in mechanics but rides bicycles to this day in city traffic(hes 33). Younger was interested & had a natural aptitude for mechanics & was a great help when we had a cycle business in the 90s. Strangely though neither showed any interest in getting a bike licence although both have ridden pillion with me in the past(perhaps my riding put them off!?) [size=78%].Younger son drives fire engines/etc & has a couple decent cycles. Tried to instil confidence by teaching them defensive riding on cycles. Remember the emphasis on "Green Cross Code" when they were @ school-Doesnt always work in inner city! I used to say never mind the red/green man-what are the vehicles doing especially after our "Lollipop Lady" was knocked down on her zebra crossing![/size]

[mike.sg]

So, as much as I'd like to keep my mind off the bike, I've been looking at the oil level, and it seems to be dropping fairly quickly. It was topped up almost all the way to max, and the level is now clearly lower, after about 50 mi or so. It's still above the midline, so the red light is not coming on.

I'll keep monitoring, making sure I check the level the right way — side stand for 5 minutes, before main stand for few more minutes.

But is there anything else I should look out for? The exhaust does not look smoky, there's no puddle on the floor, but I can't tell if the oil around the side stand and dripping on the EXUP valve cover is engine oil or chain lube (I use a wet chain lube). Also, the bike had been going 1500 mi or so before giving problems.

[Falcon 269]

The correct way to check the oil is with engine warm and bike on centre stand, taking the reading after a few minutes.  I added the sidestand period just to ensure that no oil was hiding up in the top of the cylinder head ... it sometimes does that.  You don't need to do the sidestand thing every time, though.

As for the amount of oil you seem to think you're losing, that much would have to be either a leak or would show up clearly as smoke from the exhaust.

I suggest you clean up around the 'wet area' to satisfy yourself you don't have a leak from the gear selector cover gasket.  These sometimes weep a little but frankly not enough to show up as a 50-mile level drop in the oil window.

Please understand that these motors can hide oil in various galleries and oilways and this could be the simplest explanation for your fluctuating level.  Rather than obsess over it every day, ride several hundred miles between checks and see what happens.

In short, ride more, worry less.

[mike.sg]

gotcha. will ride more.

I'll update as the situation develops.