Fazer Owners Club - Unofficial
Bikes, Hints'n'Tips => FZ6 / Fazer => Topic started by: Grahamm on 03 July 2020, 06:01:49 pm
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After doing a bunch of work on my FZ6, yesterday I took it for a ride around the block and everything was working.
I got home, picked up some stuff, tried to start it and... nothing :(
I switch on the ignition, press the starter and I can hear the relay click, but it won't turn over. I have had this problem before and usually if I put the side stand down and flick it back up so it gives the bike a jolt, that sorts it out (or, switching it off and switching it back on again...!)
But none of these are working now, however if I bump start it, it runs fine.
The side stand switch and clutch switch seem fine and the neutral light on the instruments comes on.
I wanted to check the neutral switch as well, but I can't actually find it! The Haynes manual says it's "on the back of the engine", but the accompanying picture is useless and I can't identify any of the components in it to figure out where the switch is supposed to be :(
Can anyone suggest a solution or, at least, tell me where the neutral switch actually is (preferably with a useful picture!) so I can eliminate that? If the problem is none of the above, I may have to try removing the starter motor and checking that out... :(
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If your side stand switch has been playing up before start there, test the switch by pushing the switch in the live should be cut on the return, if not loop the switch out e.g. disconnect it and loop the connection, does it start?
Then the same with the clutch, does it start?
The neutral switch the same only it's a little plunger, located literally at the back of the gear box casing, it's the only electrical connection in that area.
If all the above are fine, check the battery, anything less the 12.6 it's needs a charge, once charged and you've started the bike check the voltage across the battery with the engine running, if less than 13, rev it if you get no increase, there's a problem with the charging system. If you get 13 and an increase in voltage, charging is fine, battery is likely issues. If the problem happens again it's a naff battery not holding charge.
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If your side stand switch has been playing up before start there, test the switch by pushing the switch in the live should be cut on the return, if not loop the switch out e.g. disconnect it and loop the connection, does it start?
Then the same with the clutch, does it start?
I've tried that on both of them, no luck.
The neutral switch the same only it's a little plunger, located literally at the back of the gear box casing, it's the only electrical connection in that area.
Can you post a pic? I have tried looking, but I cannot figure where the foc it's supposed to be :(
If all the above are fine, check the battery,
The battery is fine, the relay latches (I don't get the dreaded buzz when there's not enough power to hold it)
I'm just wondering whether the starter motor itself is actually getting stuck and flicking the side stand was just enough to jog it from a "stuck" position to allow it to turn over.
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I’d try checking the 12v at the starter motor when pressing the switch and work back from there. If you get 12v then it points to the starter motor, if not then measure at the relay.
Not sure on the FZ6 but most starter relays have a built in fuse and they can get corroded.
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I’d try checking the 12v at the starter motor when pressing the switch
I'm not sure what you mean.
Do you mean putting one contact on the wire that goes into the top of the starter and the other to the negative terminal of the battery?
Not sure on the FZ6 but most starter relays have a built in fuse and they can get corroded.
Ok, there's a procedure in the Haynes manual for testing the starter relay, I'll have to have a look at it tomorrow.
Thanks.
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Yep, prod the wire at the starter and have the other end of the tester on the frame / engine bolts
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Yep, prod the wire at the starter and have the other end of the tester on the frame / engine bolts
Noted, thanks, I'll give that a shot :thumbup
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So, I decide that, this morning, once I've sorted out the starter problem, I'll get on with installing the new fork springs.
Switch on the engine, press the starter... Error code 12 :(
After a lot of faff and hassle checking out the Crank Shaft Position Sensor (and worrying that my installation of the 4 degree ignition advancer might have screwed something up) and then checking the link to the ECU plugs, I couldn't get the bike to crank, but after half a dozen attempts, I managed to bump start it, so I have the feeling that actually this is actually a duff battery problem.
I'm buying a Drop Tester from Amazon (which is only £18 and should arrive in the next day or two) and, hopefully, that will clear things up...
Still haven't got the fork springs sorted :(
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A follow up to this:
I checked my receipts (I keep them all for bike stuff) and realised that I actually installed the battery back in 2014, so it's no wonder it's a bit dodgy now!
Still, it shows that if you treat it right (it's on the Optimate whenever the bike is in the shed) you can greatly improve a battery's life :thumbup
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If all the above are fine, check the battery, anything less the 12.6 it's needs a charge, once charged and you've started the bike check the voltage across the battery with the engine running, if less than 13, rev it if you get no increase, there's a problem with the charging system. If you get 13 and an increase in voltage, charging is fine, battery is likely issues. If the problem happens again it's a naff battery not holding charge.
:) ;)
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Well my Drop Tester arrived today (bloody quick service and less than £18 too!)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00157KANE/ref=pe_3187911_185740111_TE_item (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00157KANE/ref=pe_3187911_185740111_TE_item)
:thumbup
The good news is that the battery is ok. It gives about 13.5v under no load and drops down, but stays in the "green" OK zone under load.
The bad news is also that the battery is ok, so something else must be screwed up... :(
I've been looking elsewhere for people with the same Fault Code 12 and two possibilities that have popped up are a faulty starter relay and a faulty starter motor.
I'm going to check the relay tomorrow and, if not, try to find a way to test the starter without having to take it out and strip it.
Given, however, that one of my "fixes" was to flick the side-stand up and let it bang against the stop, it does suggest that maybe the starter is getting stuck or one of the brushes has failed.
The bike still runs if I bump start it, so hopefully that means the ECU isn't fried!
Meanwhile, I've still got to install the other Fork Spring and I need the bike by next Sunday as there's a Market in Brighton I'm going to, so it may be push starts at both ends... :(
Oh and, because I thought it was the Battery, I've already ordered a new one, but as long as I keep that one in good condition, I'll have a spare when the present one eventually fails.
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Quick way to test the relay/starter quandary is to bridge the large terminals on the relay (I use a screwdriver or similar)
Turn on the ignition, short the relay. If it turns it's the relay if it doesn't it's the starter but most likely will be the relay.
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Quick way to test the relay/starter quandary is to bridge the large terminals on the relay (I use a screwdriver or similar)
Turn on the ignition, short the relay. If it turns it's the relay if it doesn't it's the starter but most likely will be the relay.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not quite sure how to "bridge the large terminals on the relay"
Do I need to unplug the connector? Displace the relay?
If you could give some more details (or pics) I'd be very grateful :thumbup
ADDENDUM I found the picture below, but there seem to be four terminals all of which appear to be the same size!
So which should I short? The top ones? The bottom ones? Left or Right Side...?!
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Nice rusty terminals there, could be part of your problem check the relay, they can and do get water in them. ;)
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Do some checks with your meter. Double check but ‘B’ should be battery and 'M' starter motor. Personally I’d check electrical operation rather than short it out. Clean up the terminals and connect it back to the battery but leave the starter motor lead off. Ignition on, in neutral and thumb the starter. You are looking for battery voltage at the starter motor lead.
Then you can check control side of the relay if first test doesn’t work. As in, do you get 12v on the solenoid control when pressing the starter. Essentially all that relay does is move a contact over so the battery voltage reaches the starter motor through the thick leads.
Normally you can hear the solenoid click in operation.
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Nice rusty terminals there, could be part of your problem check the relay, they can and do get water in them. ;)
Errm, that's not my starter relay, it's a picture I found online...!
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Errm, that's not my starter relay, it's a picture I found online...!
:rolleyes
Check yours anyway they've have a habit of corroding and they don't always have rusty terminals.
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Do some checks with your meter. Double check but ‘B’ should be battery and 'M' starter motor. Personally I’d check electrical operation rather than short it out. Clean up the terminals and connect it back to the battery but leave the starter motor lead off. Ignition on, in neutral and thumb the starter. You are looking for battery voltage at the starter motor lead.
Then you can check control side of the relay if first test doesn’t work. As in, do you get 12v on the solenoid control when pressing the starter. Essentially all that relay does is move a contact over so the battery voltage reaches the starter motor through the thick leads.
Normally you can hear the solenoid click in operation.
The problem is that I'm getting Error Code 12 as soon as I switch on, so it won't even feed power to the starter, hence why I want to bypass the relay.
I need to find if the starter will turn when it has power applied.
I can bump start it and it runs ok, so the ECU seems fine.
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Errm, that's not my starter relay, it's a picture I found online...!
:rolleyes
Check yours anyway they've have a habit of corroding and they don't always have rusty terminals.
Ok, I will, but I still want to find out if the starter works.
Here's a pic without the wires at the bottom.
If I short across the B and M terminals, will that trigger the Starter Motor?
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Yes, but unless you connect all 4 it wont be fuse protected. Have you checked the engine stop switch, grounded they give error code 12.
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Yes, but unless you connect all 4 it wont be fuse protected.
Literally all I'd do is bridge it for a couple of seconds to see if that gets the starter motor to turn.
Have you checked the engine stop switch, grounded they give error code 12.
You mean the kill switch by the throttle?
I've not seen that mentioned anywhere else in my searches, but I can check it, however, as mentioned, as the bike will bump start, I don't think that's the problem.
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Literally all I'd do is bridge it for a couple of seconds to see if that gets the starter motor to turn.
Yes, or run a lead from the battery + and earth out the - on the starter. But you can do it by checking resistance etc look on page 8.15 onward's safer then sort circuiting.
You mean the kill switch by the throttle?
I've not seen that mentioned anywhere else in my searches, but I can check it, however, as mentioned, as the bike will bump start, I don't think that's the problem.
Electrics on bikes are often linked in ways not detailed in the manual and error codes are notorious, reading them isn't always straight forward. It's also possible you've got a intermittent crank sensor and/or connection, could be pickup rota, wet/corroded ECU connector or blown ECU, the later two are unlikely as you can bump start.
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Electrics on bikes are often linked in ways not detailed in the manual and error codes are notorious, reading them isn't always straight forward.
Yep, that's why I wanted to check the battery :thumbup
It's also possible you've got a intermittent crank sensor and/or connection, could be pickup rota, wet/corroded ECU connector or blown ECU, the later two are unlikely as you can bump start.
I did do the 4 degree ignition advancer mod just a few days ago, however it started and ran ok with that.
I took the Timing Rotor cover off again when I had this problem, but there's nothing loose or damaged in there.
I've even tried turning the engine with the Timing Rotor bolt a couple of turns clockwise (NOT anti-clockwise!!) to see if it was the sensor on the crankshaft itself, but that didn't seem to be the issue.
I've also checked the resistance of the Crankshaft Position Sensor (which was in spec) and taken off the ECU connector and checked for continuity on the CPS wires which are ok and sprayed some WD40 contact cleaner into the ECU plug and connectors.
All of this seemed fine and I could bump start it after.
I'm going to try shorting the starter terminals and see what happens.
I've also seen a video which suggests that giving the starter motor a couple of (light!) taps with a hammer might help jolt something loose!
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I've also seen a video which suggests that giving the starter motor a couple of (light!) taps with a hammer might help jolt something loose!
Percussive maintenance is always good :pokefun
Seriously though, undo the big lead from the starter motor and see if you get 12v on that when you press the start button. If not, bashing the starter motor will not give you anything. If you do get 12v, you know the relay etc is good. If not, its time to trace back to the relay and check the fuses there, the output side, the input side and then the switch control to see where the failure is.
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I've also seen a video which suggests that giving the starter motor a couple of (light!) taps with a hammer might help jolt something loose!
Percussive maintenance is always good :pokefun
First Rule of Engineering: If it doesn't work, you didn't use a big enough hammer! :D
Seriously though, undo the big lead from the starter motor and see if you get 12v on that when you press the start button. If not, bashing the starter motor will not give you anything. If you do get 12v, you know the relay etc is good. If not, its time to trace back to the relay and check the fuses there, the output side, the input side and then the switch control to see where the failure is.
The problem at the moment is I'm still getting that damn Error Code 12 which means the ECU won't even let the power through.
I don't want to keep having to bump start it...!
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Quick way to test the relay/starter quandary is to bridge the large terminals on the relay (I use a screwdriver or similar)
Turn on the ignition, short the relay. If it turns it's the relay if it doesn't it's the starter but most likely will be the relay.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not quite sure how to "bridge the large terminals on the relay"
Do I need to unplug the connector? Displace the relay?
If you could give some more details (or pics) I'd be very grateful :thumbup
ADDENDUM I found the picture below, but there seem to be four terminals all of which appear to be the same size!
So which should I short? The top ones? The bottom ones? Left or Right Side...?!
The ones that the heavy cables are connected to. Basically bypassing the relay.
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The ones that the heavy cables are connected to. Basically bypassing the relay.
Thanks :thumbup
If you look at the "What did you do with your Fazer" topic, I managed to find the right ones and got it to start that way, although it still wouldn't start on the button...
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There's your answer then. Just replace the relay, about sick squid and an hours work including cake and coffee.
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There's your answer then. Just replace the relay, about sick squid and an hours work including cake and coffee.
Possibly.
I do have a new battery and I'd like to check whether the relay will "click" as it's supposed to when power is applied to it.
But first I'd need to borrow a set of jump leads...
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Interestingly, I've just searched for FZ6 starter relay and found this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGi7yjGfNVE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGi7yjGfNVE)
It looks like he's having exactly the same problem as me: Error 12 occasionally, looks like the Check Engine and ABS warning lights flashing when he presses the starter.
Sod it, I've found one on eBay that's £9 plus next day delivery, so I might as well give it a go...
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Errm, that's not my starter relay, it's a picture I found online...!
:rolleyes
Check yours anyway they've have a habit of corroding and they don't always have rusty terminals.
See above and I've replied to your other thread in General section ;) :)
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I really don't want to have to short circuit the start relay again, but it was the only way to check out the starter motor.
Fingers crossed the new relay will turn up tomorrow, so I can just swap it over...
At least my new mirror arrived today.
Hopefully also the new side stand will turn up, otherwise I'm going to have to try to bodge a fix with superglue and baking soda which will hopefully hold it enough for me to get to the event in Brighton on Sunday and then back.
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To round this thread off...
The new Starter Relay arrived on Saturday and (after a lot of cursing and swearing at the connector on the top which would not come loose!) I managed to swap it over and, Glory Be! the bike started on the button :)
So if you get an Error Code 12 on the instruments, but the resistance on the Crank Position Sensor is good and the continuity between the CPS and the ECU is fine (IIRC it was pins 6 and 9 on the top row of the ECU connector, counting from the left side of the bike) and your clutch switch, neutral switch and side stand switches are all ok, try bump starting the bike or shorting across the B and M terminals at the bottom of the starter relay.
If it fires up ok like that, then it may well be the Start Relay is knackered.
It's dead easy to fix (if you can get the connector to the loom to come off!), just disconnect the negative battery terminal, then lift the relay off its mount, unscrew the connector to the starter motor and the positive battery terminal, put the new relay in and connect back up (always do the Negative terminal LAST!) and you should be good to go :thumbup